Sugar - possibly the easiest thing to cut back on for weight loss!
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at the end of the day it boils down to CICO..
if you drink soda and overeat you will be over weight..
if you drink soda and are in a negative energy balance you will lose weight..
if you eat sugar and are in a surplus you gain weight..
if you eat sugar and are in a deficit then you will lose weight.
CICO holds, but what is relevant is how can people achieve the CICO balance that they want. For some people, it may be as simple as setting calorie goals and tracking to make sure you hit them, no matter what the content. However, many peoples' experiences bare out that certain dietary changes and/or psychological/environmental adjustments make it much more feasible in the short and long-term.
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I guess the common sense part of me says, why do you need a study to determine that if you show people chocolate chip cookies and make them eat radishes they will be pissed.
I guess the common sense part of me says, if willpower was unlimited, there'd be no reason to get pissed if they get radishes instead of chocolate.
so if you have willpower you can't be angry at being forced to eat radishes instead of cookies? I don't really see how one ties into another...
Being pissed off - like "binging" - is just a different way for describing a loss of self control. People with high degrees of willpower rarely binge, and rarely get pissed off. That so many people binge and/or get pissed off so regularly is an indicator that willpower is a limited resource.
It's all part of the same package.....that sounds like a natural reaction that anyone would have.
Bingo...just like, under the right conditions, binging....
Very Interesting... But I am way more likely to get pissed off at eating radishes when shown cookies over actually binging on cookies.
Most people would.
Which is exactly the point.
Because if willpower is a matter of "choice" or otherwise infinite, there would be no reason at all to get pissed off about missing out on a cookie that wasn't even part of your meal plan when you woke up that morning.
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baconslave wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »tigersword wrote: »None of the foods people binge on in this thread (that have been mentioned) get all (or even most) of their calories from sugar.
Maybe we missed a few: Custard stuffed eclairs, Peanut M&Ms, blueberry pie with whipped cream, Pizza with pepperoni, sausage, meatballs onions and peppers, linguine with clams, butter toffee with cashews, mint chocolate chip ice cream, Brigham's hot fudge, vanilla layer cake with lemon cream frosting, Godiva, Chinese pork fried rice, buttered toast with cinnamon, Twinkies, Ding Dongs, Hohos, Suzy Qs, Duck Rillette on French bread, crème caramel, kielbasa stuffed potato rolls, ravioli, Italian Chicken sandwich from Burger King, crispy onion rings, Gorton's breaded fish sticks, OreIda Crispers, etc.
Okay okay it's not sugar that makes every one of these divine foods worthy of a glutton party. There's plenty 'o wheat flour here. Plenty indeed. But don't they both break down as sugar. I mean, scientifically that is. Sorry, I can't find my peer reviewed citations.
I don't give myself a half a cup of M&Ms and say deal with it Newmeadow. Not interested. If I'm not eating a gallon sized plastic Halloween pumpkin tote full of candy and falling blissfully into a lovely sugar induced euphoric semi comatose state, I DON'T WANT IT.
It's all or NOTHING.
I suspect the point was that there's fat plus sugar or fat plus salt in the usual suspects.
Like I've pointed out, the main source of calories in a typical cookie (at least based on my recipe) is butter. The flour is second, yet people who usually go on about sugar being addictive frequently don't claim to binge on plain bread (although obviously some people do).
Your list tends to me to support this point.
It's often sometimes claimed by low carb advocates that people binge only on carbs, not fat or protein--the argument is made that one won't overeat if one sticks to low carb. I think this might be true for some people and that low carb can be a good strategy. It's absolutely not true for me. I might accidently overeat pasta because I misjudge portion size or get a restaurant meal and think it's super tasty (invariably mostly because of the sauce), but I was kind of surprised when I first heard people say they would "binge on" plain bread or cereal or pasta (I always assumed people overate bread because you get it in situations that make portion control difficult, like when hungry before a meal). On the other hand, I won't eat 'til I'm stuffed on anything really (seems unpleasant), but I can most certainly overconsume calories very easily with meat and I used to do it all the time with cheese.
I find lowering carbs to be a good strategy for me because it makes me more mindful and fits with how I prefer to eat, but not because it prevents overeating. (I think it may do that for some people who overeat due to perceived hunger or cravings.)
I really think that this is the crux of the thing. Which explains why many people don't have trouble with the sugar in fruit. Or don't just binge on butter sticks. It's the hyperpalatability of the combinations of sugar and fat, and salt and fat, that causes the issues.
I don't binge apples. But I will eat a whole lot of them if they are covered in peanut butter.
And chocolates and cookies are sugar plus fat.
My hubby's aunt doesn't binge sweets. She binges chips. Fat plus salt. Hubs, on his occasional few-and-far-between snacks are fat and salt as well.
So it isn't the sugar per se. It's the sugar and fat coupled together. And it's the response to palatability (taste). Hmmm...something to think about.
i binge on butter.. just sayin
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miketoryan wrote: »i binge on butter.. just sayin
You eat straight up sticks of butter? I know of people who have butter control issues but I don't know if it was with butter sticks or butter on something.
When I was a kid, I'd come home from school and make myself a snack of 1/2 cup Crisco and 1/2 cup sugar. Mix and eat.
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My son used to slice up hard margarine like cheese and eat it straight.0
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DeirdreWoodwardSanders wrote: »DeirdreWoodwardSanders wrote: »I love how you ask what the problem is and then quality if with that you will not accept lack of will power as an answer..
sorry to break it to you but the answer is that people binge and over eat due to a lack of will power, period.
Alright, screw it. Let's do this.
I binge on sugary foods. How do I get willpower to not binge on them?
will·pow·er[ wíl pòwr ]
determination and self-discipline: a combination of determination and self-discipline that enables somebody to do something despite the difficulties involved
Hmmm... I guess you just have to practice.
How do I practice determination when I am already determined to not binge but then I do binge? How do I practice self-discipline when I am on my knees crying and telling myself not to eat that cookie as my hand is reaching for it?
A dictionary definition isn't a plan of action. What's the plan of action? Where do I get willpower from?
IMO, it's like any other skill you want to develop. Maybe the missing link is patience...
A student walks into the dojo and asks the sensei "How long will it take me to become a Kung-Fu Master?"
The sensei replies "First you must learn patience".
To which the student replies "Yeah, yeah, patience. How long will THAT take?"
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NHANES data for the first one, at least that has shown to be remotely accurate. Oh wait it's shown to be essentially worthless due to it's inaccuracy
Your next link is the Avena rat study? Are humans now rodents? Is the 12on/12off feeding protocol remotely similar to human eating behavior?
Drinking soda is associated with obesity? Also really weird sugar consumption peaked around '99, what happened to obesity rates since?
"But some people do, and there is scientific evidence backing up their experience."
LOL
Try again
(reposted so my reply would show. I couldn't get it to post with all the quotes)
If people need double-blind studies to know something, they can google it. They come to MFP threads for the personal experiences of people who have successfully lost weight and maintained that loss (hence the name of this thread "..for weight loss". Note the thread is not aimed at recompers. If you find the assertion that sugar is easily eliminated, and that elimination can lead to weight loss offensive, there is no reason at all for you to be in this thread, so you can avoid all the aggravation).
And millions of people have successfully lost weight by limiting sugars. Not your experience, I understand, but please understand that other people can experience different things than you. That does not make it ok to belittle and LOL them.
However, if you need studies to believe that some people who are trying to lose weight have an easier time when they limit added sugar:
http://www.andjrnl.org/article/0002-8223(94)90155-4/abstract?cc=y
Done on humans. Amount of total sugar in diet did not predict obesity, amount of added sugar did.
http://ucdirc.ucdavis.edu/people/papers/pelchat_johnson_etal_NI2004.pdf
Human subjects. Images showing changes in the brain related to craving food. Scientific proof that food cravings exist.
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/19/5160.short
Human subjects. MRIs showing brain differences in responses to images of food (i.e. chocolate cake). Cravings - different people respond to the reward pathways differently
Pan A, Hu FB. Effects of carbohydrates on satiety: differences between liquid and solid food. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2011;14:385-90.
Sugar-added drinks in paticular add calories, but do not affect hunger. Drinking a sugary drink will not lower the rest of the day's calories. Conversely, replacing that soda with water in one's diet does not increase the rest of the day's calories. The sucrose adds calories, not nutrition, and 0 satisfaction.
http://www.banpac.org/pdfs/sfs/2011/sodas_cont_obesity_2_01_11.pdf
"All lines of evidence consistently support the conclusion that the consumption of sweetened beverages has contributed to the obesity epidemic. It is estimated that sweetened beverages account for at least one-fifth of the weight gained between 1977 and 2007 in the US population."
Don't worry that people who limit their added sugar during a diet won't be able to keep it up long-term. A dieter's sense of taste adapts. When someone regularly eats a lot of sweetened food, they will prefer sweet. After experiencing some time with less sucrose in their diet, their taste changes to less sweet. This is one reason eliminating and reducing sugar, even if it is temporary, can lead to better diet habits in the long run.
Sweet and sour preferences in young children and adults: role of repeated exposure.
Liem DG, de Graaf C
Physiol Behav. 2004 Dec 15; 83(3):421-9.
There is substantial scientific evidence that food cravings exist. There is substantial scientific evidence that added sugar causes weight gain based on how it affects metabolism and saiety. Added sugars can be safely reduced without getting rid of neccesary nutrients, and without an inevitable binge. Reducing added sugars for a period of time will retrain a dieter's tastes, so that it will be easier to resist sweets in the future, in the "real world". OP wins.
Not everyone gets cravings. Those who don't may not be the best positioned to give advise to those that do. They certainly aren't entitled to dismiss the experiences of those who have successfully gotten through cravings and reduced body fat.
I'm concerned about your need to belittle and dismiss the experiences of others. You may want to talk to a specialist about that. Good luck with your recomp journey
LOL
http://www.andjrnl.org/article/0002-8223(94)90155-4/abstract?cc=y
Done on humans. Amount of total sugar in diet did not predict obesity, amount of added sugar did.
Again, that is a correlation and it is based on a food diary and food frequency questionnaire, how accurate have those been found to be? And do we need the pirates and global warming graph again?
http://ucdirc.ucdavis.edu/people/papers/pelchat_johnson_etal_NI2004.pdf
Human subjects. Images showing changes in the brain related to craving food. Scientific proof that food cravings exist.
No one denied that cravings exist, does it force the food into your mouth as well?
http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/19/5160.short
Human subjects. MRIs showing brain differences in responses to images of food (i.e. chocolate cake). Cravings - different people respond to the reward pathways different
"Using functional magnetic resonance imaging, we report that individual variation in trait reward sensitivity (as measured by the Behavioral Activation Scale) is highly correlatedwith activation to images of appetizing foods (e.g., chocolate cake, pizza) in a fronto–striatal–amygdala–midbrain network"
Pan A, Hu FB. Effects of carbohydrates on satiety: differences between liquid and solid food. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2011;14:385-90.
Sugar-added drinks in paticular add calories, but do not affect hunger. Drinking a sugary drink will not lower the rest of the day's calories. Conversely, replacing that soda with water in one's diet does not increase the rest of the day's calories. The sucrose adds calories, not nutrition, and 0 satisfaction.
Ok go on, how this has any bearing on what we've been talking about. Might also want to check the satiety index, what scores the highest? High carb/sugar laden food, hmmmm
http://www.banpac.org/pdfs/sfs/2011/sodas_cont_obesity_2_01_11.pdf
"All lines of evidence consistently support the conclusion that the consumption of sweetened beverages has contributed to the obesity epidemic. It is estimated that sweetened beverages account for at least one-fifth of the weight gained between 1977 and 2007 in the US population."
"Numerous well-designed observational studies
have found positive associations between
sweetened beverage intake and obesity or
adiposity"
LOL
"Most importantly, two randomized controlled trials
showed that successful reduction of sweetened beverage
intake resulted in reductions in adiposity among children.
Similarly, four trials to increase intake of sweetened
beverages consistently showed weight gain among freeliving
adults. Two additional trials that failed to detect a
significant impact on adiposity were less appropriately
designed to address this hypothesis."
How was activity and other intake controlled for, did they rely on self reported intake?
"There is substantial scientific evidence that added sugar causes weight gain based on how it affects metabolism and saiety. Added sugars can be safely reduced without getting rid of neccesary nutrients, and without an inevitable binge. Reducing added sugars for a period of time will retrain a dieter's tastes, so that it will be easier to resist sweets in the future, in the "real world". OP wins."
Actually there is not and you have not presented any. Where are the studies that show in a deficit the evil added sugars are causing fat gain? Anything eaten in a surplus will result in some sort of gain, if you want to single out added sugars as causing fat gain then show it. Can you tell me the difference between added sugars and natural sugars, sucrose from apples vs added sucrose for example? OP did not call for reducing added sugars, he called for reducing sugars, strong reading comprehension0 -
I guess the common sense part of me says, why do you need a study to determine that if you show people chocolate chip cookies and make them eat radishes they will be pissed.
I guess the common sense part of me says, if willpower was unlimited, there'd be no reason to get pissed if they get radishes instead of chocolate.
so if you have willpower you can't be angry at being forced to eat radishes instead of cookies? I don't really see how one ties into another...
Being pissed off - like "binging" - is just a different way for describing a loss of self control. People with high degrees of willpower rarely binge, and rarely get pissed off. That so many people binge and/or get pissed off so regularly is an indicator that willpower is a limited resource.
It's all part of the same package.....that sounds like a natural reaction that anyone would have.
Bingo...just like, under the right conditions, binging....
Very Interesting... But I am way more likely to get pissed off at eating radishes when shown cookies over actually binging on cookies.
Most people would.
Which is exactly the point.
Because if willpower is a matter of "choice" or otherwise infinite, there would be no reason at all to get pissed off about missing out on a cookie that wasn't even part of your meal plan when you woke up that morning.
A radish wouldn't be in my meal plan anyway.
But not everyone wakes up with a meal plan.
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I woke up to 99 notifications - all from this thread!!
I can't read them all, I have places to go, people to see. Two weeks to Christmas people and I have things to do.
But so far I have learnt
- that I will continue on my mission to cut out added sugar as it gives me the worst headaches and makes me feel yuck.
- I am going to stick with my Primal/Paleo style of eating - lots of meat, chicken, fish, eggs, vegetables, fruit, limited dairy and cheese, water and cut out and if possible even eliminate cakes, biscuits, lollies from my diet.
- I have no scientific evidence to back up my choice and if that is a problem then sue me. My way of eating has got me this far and at 60 years of age I am extremely healthy and active but 5 kilos overweight and that is only because of the fact that I started eating bloody sugar and now I can't stop!!!!
Good luck to you all on your choices and to those who say "Eat what you like, when you like as long as you stay within your calorie quota for the day" please try and make that healthy food as your body with thank you.
LeenaGee thanks for your common sense post. Life does go on.
Cutting out all sugar and grains was very very hard for me because I did not cold turkey them for two months. After I did then the cravings left. There actually is good science behind what you are doing by the way. At our age we have to be serious. I have yo yo'ed too many times to tempt fate one more time. After the weight loss I will look at getting carbs back to <100 grams daily.
Diets that work and get us/keep us healthy for years are the only kinds that count over time. The nice thing they can be very different from person to person as long as they keep us healthy.
How a great Christmas!
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Dierdre isn't debating. She's not making an argument. She's not trying to fight.
I think she's trying very hard to get to the bottom of exactly what people are saying.
They make broad statements, which is fine. The "Nothing should be eliminated from the diet" is a broad statement. When these people are asked exactly how that is supposed to work, people assume it's some kind of debate or argument. It's not.
I was recently told that those who seem to be on MFP just to be nasty are really not nasty. They're trying to help when they make what appear to be very rude comments.
So, here they are, being offered the opportunity to help.
People are asking how to do the things they say people should do. If "moderation" doesn't mean "a moderate amount", how much is "moderate"? If things are not to be eliminated, how do we work them all in and still meet calorie goals as well as macros and micros?
It's not a debate or an argument. It's a question. Tell me how.
Explaining CICO totally might help someone who hasn't heard it. But once they've heard it and say, "I understand that. I still binge. How do I stop binging?"...now comes the opportunity to help.
The answer was "Practice it." Practice what? How is it done? Explain how to do it.
If people really are trying to help others when they tell them what to do, then explain to them how they are supposed to do these things. That's what we all need to know. How does it work? How do I do it?
How?
In regards to the bolded bit, that's been asked and answered in more specific terms up-thread.
But, in very general terms:
- Keep track of what you eat.
- Most of the time, try to select foods designed to help you meet any currently unmet macro/micro and calorie targets.
- If you want a treat, evaluate how much of it you can eat and still hit your targets. Decide if having that amount is worth it to you. If it is, eat as much as you want within your pre-determined limits. If it isn't, or you can't have some (in other words, you have no calories left and don't want to get some extra activity), decide if you want to go to the trouble of planning it into another day. Execute that decision. Alternatively, go over by a bit today and either accept the hit, or adjust intake/exercise on one or maybe a couple of other days to make up the difference.
Doing this, it is possible to work any food into your overall diet, given that the person is not trying to achieve a deficit too big for the amount of weight they need to lose. It is not necessarily possible to work in the amount of that food you want on any given day - or maybe ever. I mean, a 1,200 calorie piece of cheesecake is not going to fit into many people's plans. But 1/4 of it will if you plan ahead. A bite or two of it will fit in more frequently, if you decide it's worth it.
BTW - if you decide it's not worth the effort to fit in that 1/4 piece of cheesecake, that is not the same thing as saying you 'can't' work cheesecake in to your diet. No. You don't 'want' to work cheesecake into your diet. Which is completely and utterly fine. I only mention it because I do see some of that reasoning floating around.
The problem with trying to explain specifically how to go about this, is that the above can be accomplished in a million different ways. Everyone has different issues and goals. So, everyone is going to explain what worked for them, maybe what they heard worked for someone else. Maybe some of those specifics doesn't work so well for you, but that's no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
For someone who's never tried this before: start with a suggested plan of attack that appeals to you. Modify it as you choose. Try it. Identify weaknesses. Ask for help with specific issues if you don't know how to address them. Apply common sense and personal knowledge to eliminate those weaknesses in ways you think you're most likely to be able to maintain. Rinse and repeat until you're happy with your plan and observed results. Prosper.0 -
how much is "moderate"?
For me, it is what I can fit in to my calorie goals. It also means variety. Because of my diabetic training, I am looking to get vegetables, carbs, and protein in to every meal, with a dairy if I can squeeze it in. That means a little bit of everything.
My calorie goal for breakfast is 400 calories. I try and limit my two snacks to 100 calories each. I will eat between 1300 to 1600 calories total a day, which by the way, is pretty tough to do. It's moderate for me, but may be too little for others.
The recommended portions on the sides of packages are not the be-all and end-all. Most snacks have twice the calories I need, so I cut them in half.
It also means that a single serving from a Carl's Jr. or a Red Robin's is way over my calorie goals, so are therefore unattractive.0 -
girlviernes wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »
My personal theory--such as it is--is that insulin spikes are more relevant to an overall pattern of eating than overeating on specific foods. If you have a problem with insulin and eat a higher carb diet, you will be generally feeling hungry, more likely to experience cravings, etc. I'm not insulin resistant, but like many I can mimic this somewhat if I eat refined carbs alone to create a situation where the blood sugar seems to spike and crash, so that one gets hungry not long after eating and feels the need of a pick-me-up, that tired, low energy feeling.
I think feeling tired/low energy/hungry makes you less able to resist treats (the willpower thing again), but I'm not sure it makes sense to me that it would make you keep eating them. The latter seems more related to taste and some other form of satisfaction from it. Plus the psychological issues. Also, more practically, my experience was that once I was overweight I tended to overeat more, since easier to think it wouldn't make much difference anyway, might as well have that additional cookie.
But I am open to other ideas, of course.
Well I think it is that you can get into a cycle where you are looking for more foods that will quickly handle the fatigue and hunger, which are those foods that are quickly accessible and provide energy quickly (e.g., snack/prepared foods, high sugar content etc.) and like you stated, willpower may be in short supply as well. Plus the psychological issues
Oh, sure. I agree with this.0 -
On other matters, I don't know why everyone seems to be seems to be so anti-radish. Radishes are great, especially with a bit of salt.
I wouldn't typically eat them when in the mood for chocolate, of course.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »On other matters, I don't know why everyone seems to be seems to be so anti-radish. Radishes are great, especially with a bit of salt.
I wouldn't typically eat them when in the mood for chocolate, of course.
I don't either, I have steamed radishes with dinner all the time. Radish cakes are crazy good, I have to be careful with those.
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The testers weren't measuring anger, they were measuring the participant's ability to complete a complex task afterwards.
This really isn't so hard to comprehend......
But they didn't have the participants complete a complex task before being shown the chocolate, so they can't definitively say there was any change in the experimental groups' performance on the task. For all they know, the radish-eaters would have half-assed it on the task regardless.0 -
But they didn't have the participants complete a complex task before being shown the chocolate, so they can't definitively say there was any change in the experimental groups' performance on the task. For all they know, the radish-eaters would have half-assed it on the task regardless.
That's what randomization is for... this is classic between-groups experimental design.0 -
This thread wins the nuked fridge award of Dec 2014.0
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lemurcat12 wrote: »On other matters, I don't know why everyone seems to be seems to be so anti-radish. Radishes are great, especially with a bit of salt.
I wouldn't typically eat them when in the mood for chocolate, of course.
Oh there's nothing wrong with radishes. I just don't like them. But I love turnip greens and Brussels sprouts and lots don't.
It's OK, Mr.Radish, lemurcat likes you!0 -
kgeyser, the conditions of the test and the controls are listed here starting on page 1254 (not as onerous as it sounds).
http://www.psy.lu.se/upload/psykologi/pdf/strength_model1.pdf0 -
girlviernes wrote: »But they didn't have the participants complete a complex task before being shown the chocolate, so they can't definitively say there was any change in the experimental groups' performance on the task. For all they know, the radish-eaters would have half-assed it on the task regardless.
That's what randomization is for... this is classic between-groups experimental design.
shouldn't they have had a control group, or did I miss that part...0
This discussion has been closed.
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