Lifting Weights while in a calorie deficit
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Of course it's not impossible to gain muscle in a calorie deficit. That would mean not one single person could!
It's clearly not optimal but that's a million miles away from impossible.
It's well known that muscle can be added by:
Newbies.
Those returning to training after a break.
Genetically gifted (like almost all teenage males!)
Novel training stimulus.
Drug abusers.
So take an "over fat" newby, young male and they have every chance of adding muscle as long as their training, diet and calorie deficit are reasonable.
Take a lean, fully trained, experienced female lifter and you have little chance.0 -
What sijomail said. It depends and seems to be limited to particular circumstances. Beyond those its extremely unlikely.0
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You can certainly get stronger! You probably won't get bulkier, but you can get definition for sure. It has worked well for me. The real benefit is that you won't *lose* muscle tissue, whereas if you did not lift, you probably would. I had my body composition checked monthly throughout my period of fat loss and I lost no muscle tissue because I was lifting. So this way your proportion of muscle over fat increases.
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The thing about the internet is you can listen to those who say it can't be done or you can keep looking to see if someone says it can be done. Maybe it's just a mental thing that I feel I burn fat on cardio days and gain muscle on lifting days but my mental power has family and friends convinced it's happening too. This program works for me at a calorie deficit and maybe it will work for others who refuse to believe it can't happen.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm
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Muscle is weight. You gain all weight via caloric surplus. the difference is that gaining muscle and minimal/no fat requires a slight to moderate surplus while lifting properly.TimothyFish wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Phoenix_Down wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »Phoenix_Down wrote: »TimothyFish wrote: »That's actually a much repeated myth. You can gain muscle while in a calorie deficit, however, the more you wish to gain, the more strict your diet would need to be to do so.
Wtf lol? Oh ya...Damnit, I could've been Arnold Schwarzenegger at the end of my weight loss then if I had eaten right while I lifted?
There's a window of CNS adaptation where one can gain a miniscule amount of muscle, even in a deficit if one is getting proper protein and performing a good structured lifting routine but it is short lived. I won't dismiss the idea that there is zero gain but not a significant amount. If it were just down to a certain eating method for muscle gain and being in a deficit, why would bodybuilders do bulk and cut cycles to build muscle?
As is explained in this article (http://www.sparkpeople.com/blog/blog.asp?post=you_asked_is_it_possible_to_build_muscle_and_lose_weight_at_the_same_time), because it is easier to focus on one at a time. But there is a big difference between something being difficult and it being impossible.
Ya, that's not a peer reviewed study or scientific research article. That's a man who had had great success in weight loss and became a PT and decided to start formulating his own opinion.
Opinions are not facts.
I also never said it was impossible but it also isn't something that is significant like you suggest or has longstanding benefits, even under the most ideal circumstances. That is why those who achieve their BF% goal and wish to continue in lifting do bulk/cut cycles.
The people who keep saying, "you can't gain muscle mass on a deficit" aren't quoting from a scientific paper either, but that doesn't keep them doing it. All I said is that they are wrong, and that's a fact.
They don't need to cute scientific papers. It is easily proven by the law of thermodynamics.
Untrue, because we aren't talking about gaining weight but about gaining muscle. It requires a food source to gain muscle. Stored fat works like a second food source.
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This article seems to make rational sense, at least within the context of my own goals. Not a fancy peer-reviewed journal, but a fitness site that is often shared and recommended here, so hopefully this is also sound. http://scoobysworkshop.com/bulking-and-cutting/0
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Of course it's not impossible to gain muscle in a calorie deficit. That would mean not one single person could!
It's clearly not optimal but that's a million miles away from impossible.
It's well known that muscle can be added by:
Newbies.
Those returning to training after a break.
Genetically gifted (like almost all teenage males!)
Novel training stimulus.
Drug abusers.
So take an "over fat" newby, young male and they have every chance of adding muscle as long as their training, diet and calorie deficit are reasonable.
Take a lean, fully trained, experienced female lifter and you have little chance.
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jcmartin217 wrote: »The thing about the internet is you can listen to those who say it can't be done or you can keep looking to see if someone says it can be done. Maybe it's just a mental thing that I feel I burn fat on cardio days and gain muscle on lifting days but my mental power has family and friends convinced it's happening too. This program works for me at a calorie deficit and maybe it will work for others who refuse to believe it can't happen.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm
What?
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TimothyFish wrote: »That's actually a much repeated myth. You can gain muscle while in a calorie deficit, however, the more you wish to gain, the more strict your diet would need to be to do so.
What planet would this be on??
OP with the exception of newbie gains, one does not usually gain in a deficit. One will become stronger.0 -
God, I wouldn't have expected all this in a thread about strength gains
OP, the first guy answered your question. CNS adaptations - you're gaining strength (possibly a tiny bit of muscle too), have at it while it lasts.0 -
the level of derp and total misunderstanding of math and physics in this thread is amazing…
Let me break it down for you.
To build muscle you need extra mass. Extra mass for purpose of this discussion = calorie surplus.
To lose body fat you need an energy deficit. Energy deficit for our purpose = calorie deficit.
So if you want to add muscle, i.e. mass, you need to be in a calorie surplus.
If you want to lose body fat, you need an energy deficit, and need to eat in a calorie deficit.
So as we can see the process of building muscle and losing fat are diametrically opposed to one another.
Yes, some newbies can experience newbie gains, but that will only lat for a period of three to six months, at the end of which, said newbie gains will peter out.
Also, some high performance athletes may be able to build muscle in a calorie deficit but studies are conflicting on this.
So unless you are a high performance athlete or newbie you will not gain muscle in a calorie deficit.
Think of it this way. If you are building a house out of X materials, and run out of said materials. Can you finish building the house by tearing it down and building it back up at the same time, out of the same materials??????
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jcmartin217 wrote: »I'm happy my body doesn't read.....I would be pretty upset not to have gained all this muscle at a calorie deficit! I was already happy it couldn't hear that I couldn't gain doing the amount of cardio I do. I guess you all must be talking about gaining 100 lbs. of muscle or something?
how do you know that you have gained muscle in a calorie deficit? Or are you confusing losing body fat and showing existing muscle, with losing body fat and adding new muscle????0 -
jcmartin217 wrote: »The thing about the internet is you can listen to those who say it can't be done or you can keep looking to see if someone says it can be done. Maybe it's just a mental thing that I feel I burn fat on cardio days and gain muscle on lifting days but my mental power has family and friends convinced it's happening too. This program works for me at a calorie deficit and maybe it will work for others who refuse to believe it can't happen.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm
is LSD involved in this process of feeling the burned fat on cardio days and feeling the muscle gain on lifting days????0 -
jcmartin217 wrote: »I'm happy my body doesn't read.....I would be pretty upset not to have gained all this muscle at a calorie deficit! I was already happy it couldn't hear that I couldn't gain doing the amount of cardio I do. I guess you all must be talking about gaining 100 lbs. of muscle or something?
how do you know that you have gained muscle in a calorie deficit? Or are you confusing losing body fat and showing existing muscle, with losing body fat and adding new muscle????
I'd guess it's this0 -
The answer is "yes" but not very much and for those with some biochem/microbio the answer lies with the interplay of things such as mTorc1, AMPK, IGF-1, IGF-2, MGH, etc. It doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics in the least but it doesn't work well either. Jason Blaha (Ice Cream Fitness/Jaugurnaught Fitness) did a good video response to Athlean-X's claims and admits that yes for a certain segment of the population (i.e. novice to intermediate and reconditioning lifters) that it does work but not well and has very strict parameters.
There was a post on BB.com by a PhD in exercise physiology that went through some of the calculations and if you are close but under maintenance it is possible since fat can be used to make up the energy difference. However, you will be lowered in your ability to synthesize new muscle tissue due to increases in AMPK levels. The greater the deficit the higher the AMPK levels and the less you can attract mTORC1 etc.
So a slight surplus will always be better for those trying to gain muscle. Also, the more advanced of a lifter you are the harder it becomes to gain and thus the larger the surplus will be needed to maximize muscle gains, but we already know this!
For those with more interest in this shoot me an email for some good links backed by current research.0 -
jcmartin217 wrote: »The thing about the internet is you can listen to those who say it can't be done or you can keep looking to see if someone says it can be done. Maybe it's just a mental thing that I feel I burn fat on cardio days and gain muscle on lifting days but my mental power has family and friends convinced it's happening too. This program works for me at a calorie deficit and maybe it will work for others who refuse to believe it can't happen.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm
is LSD involved in this process of feeling the burned fat on cardio days and feeling the muscle gain on lifting days????
Any volunteers for that experiment?
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »The answer is "yes" but not very much and for those with some biochem/microbio the answer lies with the interplay of things such as mTorc1, AMPK, IGF-1, IGF-2, MGH, etc. It doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics in the least but it doesn't work well either. Jason Blaha (Ice Cream Fitness/Jaugurnaught Fitness) did a good video response to Athlean-X's claims and admits that yes for a certain segment of the population (i.e. novice to intermediate and reconditioning lifters) that it does work but not well and has very strict parameters.
There was a post on BB.com by a PhD in exercise physiology that went through some of the calculations and if you are close but under maintenance it is possible since fat can be used to make up the energy difference. However, you will be lowered in your ability to synthesize new muscle tissue due to increases in AMPK levels. The greater the deficit the higher the AMPK levels and the less you can attract mTORC1 etc.
So a slight surplus will always be better for those trying to gain muscle. Also, the more advanced of a lifter you are the harder it becomes to gain and thus the larger the surplus will be needed to maximize muscle gains, but we already know this!
For those with more interest in this shoot me an email for some good links backed by current research.
so basically what you are saying is that for 5% of the population it might be possible, but the other 95% of us are stuck with the good ole bulk/cut cycle????
feel free to correct my numbers…:)0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »jcmartin217 wrote: »The thing about the internet is you can listen to those who say it can't be done or you can keep looking to see if someone says it can be done. Maybe it's just a mental thing that I feel I burn fat on cardio days and gain muscle on lifting days but my mental power has family and friends convinced it's happening too. This program works for me at a calorie deficit and maybe it will work for others who refuse to believe it can't happen.
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/kelly3.htm
is LSD involved in this process of feeling the burned fat on cardio days and feeling the muscle gain on lifting days????
Any volunteers for that experiment?
ill pass….0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »The answer is "yes" but not very much and for those with some biochem/microbio the answer lies with the interplay of things such as mTorc1, AMPK, IGF-1, IGF-2, MGH, etc. It doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics in the least but it doesn't work well either. Jason Blaha (Ice Cream Fitness/Jaugurnaught Fitness) did a good video response to Athlean-X's claims and admits that yes for a certain segment of the population (i.e. novice to intermediate and reconditioning lifters) that it does work but not well and has very strict parameters.
There was a post on BB.com by a PhD in exercise physiology that went through some of the calculations and if you are close but under maintenance it is possible since fat can be used to make up the energy difference. However, you will be lowered in your ability to synthesize new muscle tissue due to increases in AMPK levels. The greater the deficit the higher the AMPK levels and the less you can attract mTORC1 etc.
So a slight surplus will always be better for those trying to gain muscle. Also, the more advanced of a lifter you are the harder it becomes to gain and thus the larger the surplus will be needed to maximize muscle gains, but we already know this!
For those with more interest in this shoot me an email for some good links backed by current research.
so basically what you are saying is that for 5% of the population it might be possible, but the other 95% of us are stuck with the good ole bulk/cut cycle????
feel free to correct my numbers…:)
6%.
Everyone will do better in the bulk/cut cycle in the end in my view but if someone is trying to lose weight and is a novice lifter, AND will tolerate a slower weight loss then it might be an option. 0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »The answer is "yes" but not very much and for those with some biochem/microbio the answer lies with the interplay of things such as mTorc1, AMPK, IGF-1, IGF-2, MGH, etc. It doesn't violate the laws of thermodynamics in the least but it doesn't work well either. Jason Blaha (Ice Cream Fitness/Jaugurnaught Fitness) did a good video response to Athlean-X's claims and admits that yes for a certain segment of the population (i.e. novice to intermediate and reconditioning lifters) that it does work but not well and has very strict parameters.
There was a post on BB.com by a PhD in exercise physiology that went through some of the calculations and if you are close but under maintenance it is possible since fat can be used to make up the energy difference. However, you will be lowered in your ability to synthesize new muscle tissue due to increases in AMPK levels. The greater the deficit the higher the AMPK levels and the less you can attract mTORC1 etc.
So a slight surplus will always be better for those trying to gain muscle. Also, the more advanced of a lifter you are the harder it becomes to gain and thus the larger the surplus will be needed to maximize muscle gains, but we already know this!
For those with more interest in this shoot me an email for some good links backed by current research.
so basically what you are saying is that for 5% of the population it might be possible, but the other 95% of us are stuck with the good ole bulk/cut cycle????
feel free to correct my numbers…:)
6%. Everyone will do better in the bulk/cut cycle in the end in my view but if someone is trying to lose weight and is a novice lifter, AND will tolerate a slower weight loss then it might be an option.
I hear ya man..
thanks for the breakdown!0
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