Guys, stop with the orthorexia already!
Replies
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lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
I didn't claim it was? I clearly distinguished between the two.
Yup, it is a hassle. Why is it a hassle? Because the tendency is for people to gain weight in the culture and systems in which we now live. This is a new thing. Historically, it wasn't the case. It is a result of social and economic changes. I really don't know how it's possible to argue otherwise, outside of willful blindness.
Yes, you did, here:Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
Again, this really isn't relevant, as no one said the issue with orthorexia (which could well take a calorie counting form) is that it's odd. The more common (trendy) forms of following a special diet aren't orthorexia.
I'm saying that calorie counting is odd, and further that its oddness involves significant and difficult psychological adjustment, which involves tension with social norms.
No, sorry, I strongly disagree. Calorie counting is no more "odd" than hair dying. The majority doesn't do it, but a significant portion of the population does it, and they do it without psychological adjustment or tension with social norms.0 -
Weighing every morsel you eat, & counting macros isn't normal. Spending significant mental and emotional energy on working out how to fit it into social life isn't normal, either. Most people just have cake and don't count how much. (That's why they're often overweight.) It causes interruptions to normal* life and I think it's strange to not admit that.
normal as in, having the quality of conforming to social norms
Ummmm, apples to oranges. Orthorexia is in a different galaxy when compared to logging food & tracking macros. I mean, do I really have to explain why? Let's use your cake example, and I'll use myself as an example of a non-orthorexic. Here we go: I eat a slice of cake, I log the cake in my food diary. Done.
Now someone with orthorexia would start panicking at the thought of putting all those artificial chemicals in their body 'cause the margarine in it is one molecule away from being plastic & the sugar will destroy their DNA or whatever.
But, it's not only the cake, they are hyper-analyzing every single morsel of food that is available at that moment and thinking of how terrible it is for them and just wishing they could go back to their safe haven of pure foods. But alas, the safe haven is not to be trusted, for even those foods have touched plastic or were not watered with rain water and if they were, it was acid rain, etc, etc, etc,
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lemurcat12 wrote: »I strongly disagree with your consistent reading of the MFP forums as showing that people have tremendous trouble with calorie counting, in any event. That seems to be what you want to see, but [people who are actually motivated to lose weight and for whom it's a personality fit seem to find it liberating or educational, even if they only choose to do it for a time. Many others don't seem like they are ready under any system. And still others choose one of the many alternatives (as I did once in the past).
What are all these threads about, then, seriously? What is the support for? 7/10 threads are about some kind of challenge, pragmatic problem or distress.
Is it educational? Yes. Is it hard? Yes.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.
Really. How many threads have you seen about questions like, "I'm going to a restaurant, I have no idea what to do" or "It's my husband's birthday, should I have some cake" or "My coworkers keep questioning me about why I don't eat the free donuts" or "I am tired of people questioning the way I eat". You've never seen threads like that, even if you've never personally experienced any of these situations?0 -
SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
I didn't claim it was? I clearly distinguished between the two.
Yup, it is a hassle. Why is it a hassle? Because the tendency is for people to gain weight in the culture and systems in which we now live. This is a new thing. Historically, it wasn't the case. It is a result of social and economic changes. I really don't know how it's possible to argue otherwise, outside of willful blindness.
Yes, you did, here:Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also ]appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Bolded (1) is one statement addressing statistical abnormality.
Bolded + italics (2) addresses functional/qualitative abnormality. That clause is preceded by "also", which marks a change from the previous sentence.
ok here:
(1) Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. (2) It also ]appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
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SnuggleSmacks wrote: »Weighing every morsel you eat, & counting macros isn't normal. Spending significant mental and emotional energy on working out how to fit it into social life isn't normal, either. Most people just have cake and don't count how much. (That's why they're often overweight.) It causes interruptions to normal* life and I think it's strange to not admit that.
normal as in, having the quality of conforming to social norms
If this is your experience, then perhaps you have some of these mental issues that you seem to be projecting on the rest of us? I can only speak for myself, and the majority of people I've interacted with on this forum and on this site...we don't take calorie or macro counting so seriously that it requires anything resembling effort or angst.
Personally, if I'm offered cake, I still have cake if I want it. I'm pickier these days about what cake I consider worthy of spending my calories, and I might take a smaller slice than I would have 10 years ago, but being offered a piece of cake is not a crisis situation.
I ate like... 4 marshmallow rice krispie butter frozen something dessert balls at Christmas. I'm sure they were more calories than I guessed, but I decided to just assume that the entire thing was like 300 calories or something. Ain't no skin off my back. And when I eat dessert my aunt makes at special occasions I will usually estimate the weight and use an entry for a similar dessert in my diary (e.g. if she makes cake then I'll use the muffin entry in my database since it's closest to cake texture, if she makes something more chewy I'd log it under my cookies). I just use existing store-bought diary entries because I don't have data and cannot access wifi in these situations. It's been totally fine for me. and in December I ate out at a restaurant after an exam and I just looked over the menu and decided "eh, salad will probably work since I still have x cals left" and I wound up eating a bit under maintenance needs anyways once I logged the dish at home.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »I strongly disagree with your consistent reading of the MFP forums as showing that people have tremendous trouble with calorie counting, in any event. That seems to be what you want to see, but [people who are actually motivated to lose weight and for whom it's a personality fit seem to find it liberating or educational, even if they only choose to do it for a time. Many others don't seem like they are ready under any system. And still others choose one of the many alternatives (as I did once in the past).
What are all these threads about, then, seriously? What is the support for? 7/10 threads are about some kind of challenge, pragmatic problem or distress.
Is it educational? Yes. Is it hard? Yes.
Because these are people who a) have never counted calories before, b) still think of weight loss in gimmick-y terms ("I have to omit x food or I won't lose!" "I need to do a cleanse to kick start my weight loss!" "I need to exercise for 50 hours every week!" etc), c) are over-thinking it, d) they have no understanding of calories.0 -
MoiAussi93 wrote: »To the posters re: it's absurd to be concerned about people who are just "trying to eat healthy:"
As I mentioned in the last orthorexia thread, people who are out to eat "better" as defined by them are not what orthorexia is. It isn't the people who bring the bowl of fruit or tray of veggies to a party. It is the people who become paralyzed with fear at the thought of an uncontrollable food setting. It is the people who cut themselves off from their normal social lives because the concern of the "cleanliness" of food has taken over many of their thoughts. And yes, it is very much less about the food than psychology behind it, but this is how it manifests.
Trying to eat "healthier" is no more orthorexia than a random day of sadness is clinical depression and I think this often gets lost in translation.
^THIS. I agree 100%.
People choosing not to eat certain foods because they feel it is healthier is not orthorexia. Even if you don't think they are right or agree with their choices, there is nothing dysfunctional in their behavior. It is only orthoexia if it keeps them from going out, having a social life, or they panic or have some kind of melt down if they can't have exactly what they want or don't know exactly how many calories it is.
Very few people have this.
Btw, the same kind of dysfunction and obsessive behavior can happen with calorie counting. I have seen MANY threads on here where people freak out because they have to go to a restaurant without calorie information. Some really DO panic. Or they get really stressed if invited to someone's home for dinner. I have seen many where people's relationships are suffering because their spouse/friends don't "support" their efforts adequately, or they get angry because other people bring food to work. I have seen people use the word "sabotage" to describe their spouse not dieting with them. This all seems irrational to me, whether they follow iifym, Paleo or any other diet philosophy.
I have also seen countless threads on people researching how many calories simple everyday activities like dusting their coffee table burn (okay, I admit the coffee table example was made up...but you get my point). To worry about whether no stick cooking spray is still zero calories if you spray for 2 seconds instead of one does not seem "normal" to me. A little more perspective would be good.
My point is anything can be taken to extremes and obsessed over.
Now, I am not attacking calorie counters. I am doing it right now to some degree myself...though more to experiment to find the macros that work best for me. It works very well for many people. And not well for others. Just like any other eating philosophy. The vast majority of calorie counters are NOT any more orthoexic than the majority of paleo diet followers, non-sugar eaters, non-fried foods eaters, gluten free people without Celiacs, or anything else someone doesn't agree with....meaning not at all!!!
For the vast majority of human history the vast majority of people maintained a healthy weight without calorie counting. So to act like doing that is 100% normal and even ideal but deciding you don't want to eat any junk food is somehow a sickness just seems a little ridiculous, not to mention hypocritical.
Different beliefs about what is healthy and different diet preferences are in themselves not a problem. People should just eat how they like and quit trying to make it an us vs. them situation. It's just food, people. Relax and enjoy it...whatever it is.
Glad you came.
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SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Guess what. In order to not be overweight or obese and avoid related risks, you have to be a little weird, at least in our society.
Disagree strongly.
Also, the idea that someone being "gluten free" in our culture is being countercultural (or even weird) is like the idea that long hair on men in the late 60s or early 70s was bucking the system and being an individual, man. It was just trendy in a different social group. Being into food restrictions is totally trendy in many US (and probably other English-speaking country) subcultures.
Orthorexia specifically is about clean foods, yes, but we all have to make conscious adaptations to prevent overweight, obesity, regain, etc. Some of these adaptations, like calorie counting, demand what some might call slightly obsessional behaviour. You really don't think, in your heart of hearts, that calorie counting is a little weird? Really? I did it for years and am doing it now, and it's much easier than it was when I first-first started, but I still think it's a little weird.
(Also, why didn't you include the rest of that paragraph in your quote, where I said basically what I just repeated above?)
Calorie counting is just as weird as orthorexia, imo.
First, I went back and checked, and no, what you said is nothing like what I said, and I continue to disagree with it. It is NOT true that one has to be "psychologically abnormal" to avoid being overweight, let alone obese, and I further don't agree that counting calories, doing one of the many other things possible to monitor food amounts, or even being into food-related trends like low carb or paleo or gluten free is, in fact, psychologically abnormal. Some of it is trendy, however. It's sad if it goes over into orthorexia territory, but I suspect that has more to do with preexisting tendencies that are channeled in that particular way rather than dieting being the actual cause.
And your later post that claims cooking requires some kind of weirdness in our society is just, well, weird. Cooking is pretty normal and standard among people I know, at least those who are married and have children (and a great many or most of the single women as well). It's part of being responsible.
In any event, the issue with orthorexia is not that it's weird, rather obviously.
Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Statistically uncommon does not mean psychologically abnormal, as you claimed.
Yes, it's uncommon because it's a hassle and until recently was more of one, and because lots of people don't need to do it or wish to.
I didn't claim it was? I clearly distinguished between the two.
Yup, it is a hassle. Why is it a hassle? Because the tendency is for people to gain weight in the culture and systems in which we now live. This is a new thing. Historically, it wasn't the case. It is a result of social and economic changes. I really don't know how it's possible to argue otherwise, outside of willful blindness.
Yes, you did, here:Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. It also ]appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Bolded (1) is one statement addressing statistical abnormality.
Bolded + italics (2) addresses functional/qualitative abnormality. That clause is preceded by "also", which marks a change from the previous sentence.
ok here:
(1) Calorie counting is definitely statistically abnormal, for one thing, plain and simple - most people don't do it. (2) It also ]appears to require significant learning that involves complex emotional reactions and pragmatic difficulties. The entirety of MFP's forums speaks to the difficulties people have with calorie counting. It's not normal.
Learning to track calories did not involve complex emotional reactions or pragmatic difficulties. Other than the few times I worried about how to log food I didn't make myself, because these were situations I was unfamiliar with and wasn't sure how to just estimate or not give a frak and just eat based on hunger (because who cares if you over-eat for a night anyway?).
I'm going to agree with waht has been said before and say that you seem to be projecting your own issues with tracking into this thread.0 -
SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.
Have you read the forums here? Like are you people kidding?
Um...I've posted over 3,000 times, but no, I never read the forums
I don't see people counting calories for years and agonizing over going to a restaurant or dinner at a friend's house. I don't see people counting calories for a while and spending a great deal of time puzzling over how to put together meals that fit their macros. I don't see people counting calories for years and freaking out because they went over one day.
I do see posts from a few individuals who are new to the process and struggling with how to go about counting things at restaurants and friends' houses, or asking questions, or expressing a bit of frustration or even panic because they went over, and they don't yet know what that means for the long term.
If you've been doing this for a long time and you're having these issues, then you might want to talk to a professional.
A "few individuals"? You're kidding, again.
I don't have any issues with counting calories. It took me a year to figure it out, though. That year was hard.0 -
And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.0
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Yes, I feel like lately everyone has an opinion of some food or other and has deemed something off limits for them. IRL. EVERYone!0
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SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.
Have you read the forums here? Like are you people kidding?
Um...I've posted over 3,000 times, but no, I never read the forums
I don't see people counting calories for years and agonizing over going to a restaurant or dinner at a friend's house. I don't see people counting calories for a while and spending a great deal of time puzzling over how to put together meals that fit their macros. I don't see people counting calories for years and freaking out because they went over one day.
I do see posts from a few individuals who are new to the process and struggling with how to go about counting things at restaurants and friends' houses, or asking questions, or expressing a bit of frustration or even panic because they went over, and they don't yet know what that means for the long term.
If you've been doing this for a long time and you're having these issues, then you might want to talk to a professional.
A "few individuals"? You're kidding, again.
I don't have any issues with counting calories. It took me a year to figure it out, though. That year was hard.
Really? I've been tracking for 7 months? I'd say that out of that entire time, maybe only a few weeks overall were hard. And they related to my overly regimented approach (similar to how I had been when "eating clean" and not tracking/being aware of calories).0 -
SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.
Have you read the forums here? Like are you people kidding?
Um...I've posted over 3,000 times, but no, I never read the forums
I don't see people counting calories for years and agonizing over going to a restaurant or dinner at a friend's house. I don't see people counting calories for a while and spending a great deal of time puzzling over how to put together meals that fit their macros. I don't see people counting calories for years and freaking out because they went over one day.
I do see posts from a few individuals who are new to the process and struggling with how to go about counting things at restaurants and friends' houses, or asking questions, or expressing a bit of frustration or even panic because they went over, and they don't yet know what that means for the long term.
If you've been doing this for a long time and you're having these issues, then you might want to talk to a professional.
A "few individuals"? You're kidding, again.
I don't have any issues with counting calories. It took me a year to figure it out, though. That year was hard.
Really? I've been tracking for 7 months? I'd say that out of that entire time, maybe only a few weeks overall were hard. And they related to my overly regimented approach (similar to how I had been when "eating clean" and not tracking/being aware of calories).
It wasn't "hard" as in "how much is 1800, and how much is this piece of chicken worth, and how much is left". It was hard as in food was top of mind for a lot of the day. Planning meals, making decisions about food while out, fine-tuning macros in accordance with preferences and vice versa, trying this or that recipe to see how it affected my appetite, energy, and mood (and ability to do my workouts), learning new cooking techniques, reading labels, etc0 -
Anyway, SnuggleSmacks, good on you for bringing this up. Obviously full-blown orthorexia is much easier to identify & define, but I think your concern was that some people may be exhibiting the early stages of this eating disorder judging by the increase of certain forum post topics in recent times. This coupled with more & more people in our everyday lives jumping on board is worrisome. It seems to behave differently than just another fad diet.
I recently had some friends try to put a scare in me for drinking a bottle of spring water. They said that the plastic leaches into the water, blah blah blah, the whole lecture. I asked them what kind of water they drink. They said tap water because Dr.Mercola said it was safer than bottled.
Next comes the pizza. Crust, cheese, well these same friends went on to say how terrible not only gluten, but grains in general are to our health and they only eat paleo now. That also means no dairy to them. Oh, except Dr.Mercola's whey protein powder is an exception.
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Learning to track calories did not involve complex emotional reactions or pragmatic difficulties. Other than the few times I worried about how to log food I didn't make myself, because these were situations I was unfamiliar with and wasn't sure how to just estimate or not give a frak and just eat based on hunger (because who cares if you over-eat for a night anyway?).
Not all calorie counters are comfortable with just estimating. Not are able to "not give a frak" and just eat based on hunger. Not all realize that overeating for one night is not a big deal. Those people are in danger of becoming obsessive if they aren't already. I believe those people are the minority.
Most people following a specific diet out of a belief that it is healthier...whether that is Paleo, LCHF, Atkins, Mediterranean Diet, Ornish Diet, whatever...if placed in a situation that isn't ideal for their diet...certain restaurants or social situations...do what you do. They "don't give a frak" because it is one meal. The make the best choice they can in the situation and move on and don't dwell on it. The tiny minority who freak out are being obsessive, just like the minority of calorie counters who freak out in similar situations.
There is no difference.
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And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
I think that the proper term is "scarcity". That's what kept our ancestors thin without having to think about it. Why, even today we can look around the world and find perfect examples.0 -
SnuggleSmacks wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Yeah, I didn't catch that. Significant mental and emotional energy on how to fit it into one's social life is simply puzzling to me. And I go to restaurants without calorie counts reasonably frequently.
Have you read the forums here? Like are you people kidding?
Um...I've posted over 3,000 times, but no, I never read the forums
I don't see people counting calories for years and agonizing over going to a restaurant or dinner at a friend's house. I don't see people counting calories for a while and spending a great deal of time puzzling over how to put together meals that fit their macros. I don't see people counting calories for years and freaking out because they went over one day.
I do see posts from a few individuals who are new to the process and struggling with how to go about counting things at restaurants and friends' houses, or asking questions, or expressing a bit of frustration or even panic because they went over, and they don't yet know what that means for the long term.
If you've been doing this for a long time and you're having these issues, then you might want to talk to a professional.
A "few individuals"? You're kidding, again.
I don't have any issues with counting calories. It took me a year to figure it out, though. That year was hard.
Really? I've been tracking for 7 months? I'd say that out of that entire time, maybe only a few weeks overall were hard. And they related to my overly regimented approach (similar to how I had been when "eating clean" and not tracking/being aware of calories).
It wasn't "hard" as in "how much is 1800, and how much is this piece of chicken worth, and how much is left". It was hard as in food was top of mind for a lot of the day. Planning meals, making decisions about food while out, fine-tuning macros in accordance with preferences and vice versa, trying this or that recipe to see how it affected my appetite, energy, and mood (and ability to do my workouts), learning new cooking techniques, reading labels, etc
Yeah... that never happened to me other than when I got too regimented, which harkened back to my "clean eating" type of mentality and thus echoing the type of issues reflected in this thread's original topic.
Basically everything you describe though can and likely is experienced by people who do not track calories. I thought more about these things while not tracking calories than I do now that I track.0 -
I think another thing that gets overlooked here is that while yes, in the general population, these tendencies are likely uncommon, due to the nature of this site, the prevalence is likely higher. I think awareness and discussion of this phenomenon is good and necessary so that we can hopefully avoid the pitfall.0
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I think another thing that gets overlooked here is that while yes, in the general population, these tendencies are likely uncommon, due to the nature of this site, the prevalence is likely higher. I think awareness and discussion of this phenomenon is good and necessary so that we can hopefully avoid the pitfall.
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Well, it is kind of ironic when you think about it...there are a lot of people on this site on the regular, thinking and talking and arguing about food and how to eat it all day...and giving a lot of *!#'s about how other people should eat and think about food. Just sayin0
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And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
I think that the proper term is "scarcity". That's what kept our ancestors thin without having to think about it. Why, even today we can look around the world and find perfect examples.
Right. Exactly. Our whole apparatus - our metabolism, taste buds, the cognitive shortcuts we use and errors we make (like our well-known tendency to overestimate portions) - is geared towards maximizing calorie intake in an environment of scarcity. However, our (western, contemporary) culture and environment promote surplus and overconsumption, both in the quantity of food and its design, when it's manufactured. Our work culture (40+ hour workweek, service-based [sedentary] vs. production [physical labour] economy) and the ways our cities are planned orient us away from physical activity. Therefore, it takes additional actions - actions that contradict both our physical apparatus and our cultural habits - to avoid overeating in the ways that evidently lead to obesity and overweight for the majority of westerners. Consistently implementing those actions takes additional and continual effort and learning and adjustment.0 -
neanderthin wrote: »
Ok, I see, it's a "real" *kitten* show.neanderthin wrote: »
lol. Well, shut the front door. She admits that she created a monster when she added balsamic vinegar to a recipe and the world has never been the same since.SnuggleSmacks wrote: »This interesting article discusses the growing epidemic of orthorexia, an obsession with the virtue of your food, rather than how much or little you eat. This can be obsessive thinking about gluten-free, clean, low-fat, local, juice-fasting, cleansing, or any other healthiest-diet-flavor-of-the-month.
I blame Alice Waters, and then stupid people running with her stupid ideas and expanding upon the idiocy.
lol, you should read up on what's she's done. If only it were so simple and cute.
I disdain her with such an intensity. She's the reason why when I go to a restaurant, I get a stupid resume for the pig I'm eating, but if I ask what preparation method they're using, they have to go ask the cooks.
I think she's part of the dippy circus that created the basis of this orthorexia fetish so many fall into.
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neanderthin wrote: »
I know it is a problem for people that actually have Celiac, but you have to keep in mind that there is a plethora of people with all sorts of eating restrictions that will pass it off for allergies. New Years Eve I had a table of six where 3 of them said they were very allergic to onions and I told the waiter that unfortunately I couldn't guarantee any cross contamination and suggested just having dessert and even then I mentioned cross contamination....... the waiter came back and said, don't worry as long as they don't see any onions they should be alright. This causes all sorts of problems for people that are actually allergic to one thing or another and I must take all inquiries seriously, so I suspect you are taken seriously except in the kitchen we know through experience that most are nothing more than eating irregularities."Gluten free" is only getting out of hand in terms of the number of people who don't have Celiac. For those of us that do... I appreciate getting smacked in the face with all of those GF labels.
Now if only I could get restaurants to take me seriously instead of laughing me off as just another fad dieter...
NOW I get your first response to my comment about Alice Waters. You have more context than the normal MFP folks.0 -
health_for_love wrote: »Let people do what they want? You can't make a person choose logic over ignorance.
Wanna bet?
By year's end we'll have more than a few states removing "philosophical and religious" vaccine exemptions.0 -
And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
We haven't always monitored UMV, DAU, return sessions, daily conversion rate, etc.
However analyzing that data allows one to act in a more optimal manner.
Calorie counting is very much the same. Nothing abnormal behind tracking and analyzing metrics that are deemed important to a specific mode of function or capability. In fact, not tracking would be the abnormality, now that such data are freely and easily accessible.0 -
This thread is as bad as those things you are all bashing. It's the same dang thing - group clamouring about being right and how everyone else is wrong and stupid.
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I just joined and THIS is the first impression I get?
Why not stop being so insecure? You are bothered by what those "stupid people " say only if it somehow makes you insecure about your own path. Personally, also have medical reasons to need to eat certain foods and not others but I don't care if half of Facebook is claiming that you should stuff a whole pineapple up your butt to be healthy. How does it harm me what othrrs think?
I follow what is right for me... not this lot or some other group.
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And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
We haven't always monitored UMV, DAU, return sessions, daily conversion rate, etc.
However analyzing that data allows one to act in a more optimal manner.
Calorie counting is very much the same. Nothing abnormal behind tracking and analyzing metrics that are deemed important to a specific mode of function or capability. In fact, not tracking would be the abnormality, now that such data are freely and easily accessible.
Yeah, I agree, it's what's necessary for weight management, and it's more optimal than having diabetes for sure. It's the stuff behind the metrics that might cause strain, kwim? I don't know. I don't think I have a lot left for this thread (finally).0 -
Maybe? If someone is wrongly attaching silly drama to the gathering and analysis of data, then sure. That's stupid though, I mean... seriously stupid. I'm not going to pull punches on that. I deal with data all day.And I still think it's odd, and it does still mean vigilance over and above the intuitive approach to food that's characterized eating since forever.
We haven't always monitored UMV, DAU, return sessions, daily conversion rate, etc.
However analyzing that data allows one to act in a more optimal manner.
Calorie counting is very much the same. Nothing abnormal behind tracking and analyzing metrics that are deemed important to a specific mode of function or capability. In fact, not tracking would be the abnormality, now that such data are freely and easily accessible.
Yeah, I agree, it's what's necessary for weight management, and it's more optimal than having diabetes for sure. It's the stuff behind the metrics that might cause strain, kwim? I don't know. I don't think I have a lot left for this thread (finally).
I think weight management is more than just losing, that can include gaining, optimizing, or even better working with extremes. I really dig data though, so I think anyone getting fruity about it is weird.
This was/is a funny thread.
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