Safe Weight Gain
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grantevans11 wrote: »Ndj- I never said I didn't say that, what've said is that is not what I meant, which I think you know.
If you meet your calories and macros it is fine, but it's not the optimal way to bulk. If you took the time to read that article you'd see why, which by the way is based on information from Nate Miyacki, a well known fitness author and coach, which is s lot more reliable than some angry forum trolls.
The question you've asked me with your two ice cream examples, I'm not going to answer. I've never said the diet needs to be 100% clean because that would be pretty difficult. I agree you need to meet your calories and macros, which I've said in the past, but again we come back to the point where I've said it does matter what you fill those calories with. The argument is, you are saying fill calories with whatever you want, so long as it meets your macros and calorie goal. My argument is that their are foods you have suggest in previous posts that should be avoided.
MrM - ive never said the diet needs to be 100% clean, I don't know why you keep saying that. Therefore I won't explain the science behind it because that doesn't relate to anything I've said.
You've said I've never done anything so shouldn't advise people. First of all, how do you know what I've done and achieved? Secondly, last year I gained 22lbs and my body fat increased by 0.8%, tel me your method has better results than that?
I think that also answers your next argument. But also, you've said your not telling people to eat s bunch of crap, that is your argument against me, so what are you talking about? Your whole argument was for people to eat whatever they want within their calories and macro goals and they'll be fine. My argument was that is not the best way to do it.
Any more questions or irrelevant comments?
so you stated something that is no accurate then, right?
you are not going to answer my question because the answer will invalidate what you have been posting. The answer is if they both eat in a surplus and both hit macro/micro targets they will both gain about the same mass.
So you are saying that ice cream should be avoided during a bulk? Ok, then please explain why.
You say that you are not advocating eating 100% clean, but then at the same time you are saying there are foods that should be avoided. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
I said something which didn't come out the way it was meant. The OP understood that, and understood what I meant, which was who the comment was intended for.
I don't know how from what I said you came to the conclusion that I am saying ice cream should be avoided in the bulk. That is not what I said nor what I intended to say/imply.
You absolutely can have it both ways. You can eat 'dirty' foods in moderation few and far between, but you cannot eat whatever you want like your implying.0 -
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grantevans11 wrote: »grantevans11 wrote: »Ndj- I never said I didn't say that, what've said is that is not what I meant, which I think you know.
If you meet your calories and macros it is fine, but it's not the optimal way to bulk. If you took the time to read that article you'd see why, which by the way is based on information from Nate Miyacki, a well known fitness author and coach, which is s lot more reliable than some angry forum trolls.
The question you've asked me with your two ice cream examples, I'm not going to answer. I've never said the diet needs to be 100% clean because that would be pretty difficult. I agree you need to meet your calories and macros, which I've said in the past, but again we come back to the point where I've said it does matter what you fill those calories with. The argument is, you are saying fill calories with whatever you want, so long as it meets your macros and calorie goal. My argument is that their are foods you have suggest in previous posts that should be avoided.
MrM - ive never said the diet needs to be 100% clean, I don't know why you keep saying that. Therefore I won't explain the science behind it because that doesn't relate to anything I've said.
You've said I've never done anything so shouldn't advise people. First of all, how do you know what I've done and achieved? Secondly, last year I gained 22lbs and my body fat increased by 0.8%, tel me your method has better results than that?
I think that also answers your next argument. But also, you've said your not telling people to eat s bunch of crap, that is your argument against me, so what are you talking about? Your whole argument was for people to eat whatever they want within their calories and macro goals and they'll be fine. My argument was that is not the best way to do it.
Any more questions or irrelevant comments?
so you stated something that is no accurate then, right?
you are not going to answer my question because the answer will invalidate what you have been posting. The answer is if they both eat in a surplus and both hit macro/micro targets they will both gain about the same mass.
So you are saying that ice cream should be avoided during a bulk? Ok, then please explain why.
You say that you are not advocating eating 100% clean, but then at the same time you are saying there are foods that should be avoided. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
I said something which didn't come out the way it was meant. The OP understood that, and understood what I meant, which was who the comment was intended for.
I don't know how from what I said you came to the conclusion that I am saying ice cream should be avoided in the bulk. That is not what I said nor what I intended to say/imply.
You absolutely can have it both ways. You can eat 'dirty' foods in moderation few and far between, but you cannot eat whatever you want like your implying.
well ice cream is one of the foods I suggest that OP eat and you said you don't agree with some of the foods I suggested…
so lets start over then ..
what foods should be avoided?
bagels, cookies, pasta, rice…? < don't feel the need to select from that list, but just give me something I said to eat that should be avoided...
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Ndj - From that list, only cookies, unless you can find some with zero sugar which I don't think anybody wants to eat, but you've said in previous threads, that people can eat whatever they want within their calories and macros.0
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grantevans11 wrote: »Ndj - From that list, only cookies, unless you can find some with zero sugar which I don't think anybody wants to eat, but you've said in previous threads, that people can eat whatever they want within their calories and macros.
so cookies no, but ice cream yes….?
you realize they both have sugar, right?
so why are cookies out?
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grantevans11 wrote: »Ndj- I never said I didn't say that, what've said is that is not what I meant, which I think you know.
If you meet your calories and macros it is fine, but it's not the optimal way to bulk. If you took the time to read that article you'd see why, which by the way is based on information from Nate Miyacki, a well known fitness author and coach.
The question you've asked me with your two ice cream examples, I'm not going to answer. I've never said the diet needs to be 100% clean because that would be pretty difficult. I agree you need to meet your calories and macros, which I've said in the past, but again we come back to the point where I've said it does matter what you fill those calories with. The argument is, you are saying fill calories with whatever you want, so long as it meets your macros and calorie goal. My argument is that their are foods you have suggest in previous posts that should be avoided.
MrM - ive never said the diet needs to be 100% clean, I don't know why you keep saying that. Therefore I won't explain the science behind it because that doesn't relate to anything I've said.
You've said I've never done anything so shouldn't advise people. First of all, how do you know what I've done and achieved? Secondly, last year I gained 22lbs and my body fat increased by 0.8%, tel me your method has better results than that?
I think that also answers your next argument. But also, you've said your not telling people to eat s bunch of crap, that is your argument against me, so what are you talking about? Your whole argument was for people to eat whatever they want within their calories and macro goals and they'll be fine. My argument was that is not the best way to do it.
Any more questions or irrelevant comments?
You are claiming to have gained 22 lbs on 1 bulk last year and gained less than 1% bf? Let's see the before and after pictures.
You keep claiming people are saying to fill their diets with crap. No one is saying to do that. You keep claiming certain foods will make you gain fat just based on what those foods are not even considering the size of the surplus, but you can't even explain why. You keep avoiding that question.
MrM - I don't have before and after pictures because I never though I'd have to prove myself to people over the Internet.
I'm pretty tired of going over the same things, if you actually read what I was saying and had a think about it you might understand. Your telling people to eat whatever they want within their calorie and macro goals (not fill their diets with crap) which is what I disagree with. I haven't said anything about the size of the surplus, because that is not my argument. But a surplus of say rice and chicken, or pasta and lean mince, is always going to be better than whatever you want, which is likely to consist of fries, sausages, any fast food really, sugary cereals etc. Why you ask? Slow digesting carbs, fiber, antioxidants, insulin levels to name a few. They all effect your gains now and your health in the future, if you want me to go into further details to educate you on this please let me know.
Ndj - maybe you shouldn't eat ice cream then, our ice cream in the UK isn't as packed with sugar.
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^^ this is silly! my surplus mainly consists of a snicker. If I've already hit my protein and fat (and micros) then why would I force down 250 worth of chicken and brocolli?
Also, if I go over my planned surplus, with said chicken and brocolli, that is still going to result in fat gain.0 -
grantevans11 wrote: »grantevans11 wrote: »Ndj- I never said I didn't say that, what've said is that is not what I meant, which I think you know.
If you meet your calories and macros it is fine, but it's not the optimal way to bulk. If you took the time to read that article you'd see why, which by the way is based on information from Nate Miyacki, a well known fitness author and coach.
The question you've asked me with your two ice cream examples, I'm not going to answer. I've never said the diet needs to be 100% clean because that would be pretty difficult. I agree you need to meet your calories and macros, which I've said in the past, but again we come back to the point where I've said it does matter what you fill those calories with. The argument is, you are saying fill calories with whatever you want, so long as it meets your macros and calorie goal. My argument is that their are foods you have suggest in previous posts that should be avoided.
MrM - ive never said the diet needs to be 100% clean, I don't know why you keep saying that. Therefore I won't explain the science behind it because that doesn't relate to anything I've said.
You've said I've never done anything so shouldn't advise people. First of all, how do you know what I've done and achieved? Secondly, last year I gained 22lbs and my body fat increased by 0.8%, tel me your method has better results than that?
I think that also answers your next argument. But also, you've said your not telling people to eat s bunch of crap, that is your argument against me, so what are you talking about? Your whole argument was for people to eat whatever they want within their calories and macro goals and they'll be fine. My argument was that is not the best way to do it.
Any more questions or irrelevant comments?
You are claiming to have gained 22 lbs on 1 bulk last year and gained less than 1% bf? Let's see the before and after pictures.
You keep claiming people are saying to fill their diets with crap. No one is saying to do that. You keep claiming certain foods will make you gain fat just based on what those foods are not even considering the size of the surplus, but you can't even explain why. You keep avoiding that question.
MrM - I don't have before and after pictures because I never though I'd have to prove myself to people over the Internet.
I'm pretty tired of going over the same things, if you actually read what I was saying and had a think about it you might understand. Your telling people to eat whatever they want within their calorie and macro goals (not fill their diets with crap) which is what I disagree with. I haven't said anything about the size of the surplus, because that is not my argument. But a surplus of say rice and chicken, or pasta and lean mince, is always going to be better than whatever you want, which is likely to consist of fries, sausages, any fast food really, sugary cereals etc. Why you ask? Slow digesting carbs, fiber, antioxidants, insulin levels to name a few. They all effect your gains now and your health in the future, if you want me to go into further details to educate you on this please let me know.
Ndj - maybe you shouldn't eat ice cream then, our ice cream in the UK isn't as packed with sugar.
thats all you got bro????
LOL ok…
to quote game of thrones "you know nothing John Snow"
we are done as you have proved you do not know anything…
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grantevans11 wrote: »grantevans11 wrote: »I think that's exactly the point, the OP was asking for foods they can eat during the day to make good gains, which I think I've answered. Veg, fish rice, nuts etc. YES, burgers, chips, beer etc. NO.
I'm not interested in your philosophies or what you eat. I'm trying to help the OP to make the gains that I have, using the methods that have worked for me and I would expect to work for someone of a similar height, weight and build.
you still never answered the question. What are the "right" foods that help you keep fat out of the wrong areas? I would like to know this so that I can eat said foods and not gain fat in certain areas….
That wasn't the point I was trying to make. I don't understand why you can't appreciate that you're way isn't the only way to bulk. Eating your way, whatever you want so long as it hits your calories will work, but will likely result in a lot of unnecessary fat, that is going to be harder to lose than it is easy to avoid.
Stop saying so long as it hits your calories and macros it's fine, everyone knows you need to meet your calories and macros, but how you choose to meet them will affect your gains now and will affect your general health in the future. There are loads of articles on the web to support this, you can't just fill your calories eith crap.
Have a read of the article below, I emphasise point 3 made;
http://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-tips/add-muscle-subtract-fat-clean-bulk-works?page=2&cc=GB
Sorry to jump in on the dog pile but this article is your proof? So who is this guy that gets quoted as the author's only source and why should I care what he says? It's a false appeal to authority and makes no case other than demonstrating that you Googled and cherry picked the first article you found that supported your personal bias without even doing a critical evaluation of it. You will note that many of us here are well educated in the sciences and that isn't going to cut the mustard. Again, not trying to pick on you but please don't try to throw out a bad article as support, it's weak and won't wash.
What you are saying is not entirely wrong, but not neither is it completely right. You should try to eat a proper balanced diet but that doesn't mean you restrict entire classes of food that are not harmful based on some food moralization. To tell someone that they must eat a particular way without understanding the basics of physiology is a disservice.
OP, eat a proper balanced diet and get yourself into a surplus. It's not rocket science but it is a head game and a bit of trial and error to find your maintenane and optimal caloric intake. It's not as complex as a lot would make of it since your probably know 90% or more of what you need to already.0 -
MrM – We come back to the point where you are saying you haven’t eaten fries or fast food in a long time. This is not the point, you are advocating people can eat whatever they want within their calories and macro goals. By you not eating those foods, you’re sort of fighting my argument for me. Why don’t you eat fries or fast foods?
I appreciate insulin has some part in muscle growth, but is also a massive cause of stored body fat. An insulin spike (caused by some foods previously mentioned) results in the recently ingested food being used for energy rather than the stored body fat.
This also relates to your third point, where the size of the surplus and training dictate the fat gain. They do obviously play a huge part in the cause of fat gain, but they are not the only factor people need to consider, which is what I've been trying to get through since you began bickering.
Wheelhouse - That article is not my proof, but does support what I am saying.
For a clean bulk I think certain foods should be restricted. If you're not too worried about gaining a lot of fat go ahead and eat what you want, but if you want to gain minimal fat, and save the work when you're trying to cut you do need to be restrictive on how and what you eat.
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grantevans11 wrote: »MrM – We come back to the point where you are saying you haven’t eaten fries or fast food in a long time. This is not the point, you are advocating people can eat whatever they want within their calories and macro goals. By you not eating those foods, you’re sort of fighting my argument for me. Why don’t you eat fries or fast foods?
I appreciate insulin has some part in muscle growth, but is also a massive cause of stored body fat. An insulin spike (caused by some foods previously mentioned) results in the recently ingested food being used for energy rather than the stored body fat.
This also relates to your third point, where the size of the surplus and training dictate the fat gain. They do obviously play a huge part in the cause of fat gain, but they are not the only factor people need to consider, which is what I've been trying to get through since you began bickering.
Wheelhouse - That article is not my proof, but does support what I am saying.
For a clean bulk I think certain foods should be restricted. If you're not too worried about gaining a lot of fat go ahead and eat what you want, but if you want to gain minimal fat, and save the work when you're trying to cut you do need to be restrictive on how and what you eat.
The bold just provides proof that you have very little concept of basic physiology. Insulin is a master hormone and the main key to gaining muscle and is released when one eats either carbs or proteins. Yes, the property of burning glucose and slowing fat utilization (it doesn't stop it) is probably the best known effect but for those trying to gain muscle there is a far more important property: Insulin release signals abundance of energy without which you would be unable to synthesize skeletal muscle.
Look at my profile picture that was taken 2 weeks ago after 3 month of bulking on flexible dieting that includes what you would say are bad foods. How much do I need to cut right now? It's about calories over maintenance that dertermines how much fat you gain.0 -
Poor OP just needs to eat more. Period. He doesn't need to avoid foods, restrict sugar, or any of the other nonsense. To gain weight he must eat more calories then he burns in a day. To gain weight in the form of muscle he needs to eat more calories then he burns, get in adequate protein, and lift weights while progressively increasing the load. To gain weight in the form of muscle and minimize fat gain, he must do everything in the previous sentence while also keeping the surplus small. That's literally it. Sure it's a good idea to eat some fruits and vegetables for vitamins/minerals and whole grains for fiber, but that has more to do with overall health, not really results. It certainly has NOTHING to do with how much fat is gained. That's almost completely related to the size of the deficit and training. Ice cream is delicious and can be eaten when dieting or bulking. Same with cookies, same with any food in existence.
A good strategy for the OP would be to pick a reasonable calorie number, maybe 15 or 16 calories per lb he weighs to start. Eat that combined with around 0.8 grams of protein per lb he weighs. Give it a few weeks. If you are gaining at an appropriate pace, about 0.5 lbs a week, continue on. If you are not gaining, add in some calories. Anytime weight stalls for a few weeks, add in some calories. If weight gain becomes too rapid, reduce some calories. Keep it simple OP. Don't try and avoid foods or types of fat. Just keep a close eye on calories and adjust based on personal results.0 -
grantevans11 wrote: »Grant I get where you are coming from, once at the gym I won't necessarily get the big gut etc that I would otherwise get just trying to put in weight with no excercise.
I don't know what my current body fat is I'm afraid. Just trying to get an idea of what to eat and also what is good to eat before gym and how long before so not only will I build, have the energy but also not just carry on losing weight!
Good to see someone can keep up and not just use this site to attack other members.
To avoid gaining a gut and excess fat try steering away from saturated fat, and avoid empty calories like beer and vodka.
Bro, you get a gut from eating more calories than you expend (aka calorie surplus).0 -
grantevans11 wrote: »grantevans11 wrote: »Ndj- I never said I didn't say that, what've said is that is not what I meant, which I think you know.
If you meet your calories and macros it is fine, but it's not the optimal way to bulk. If you took the time to read that article you'd see why, which by the way is based on information from Nate Miyacki, a well known fitness author and coach, which is s lot more reliable than some angry forum trolls.
The question you've asked me with your two ice cream examples, I'm not going to answer. I've never said the diet needs to be 100% clean because that would be pretty difficult. I agree you need to meet your calories and macros, which I've said in the past, but again we come back to the point where I've said it does matter what you fill those calories with. The argument is, you are saying fill calories with whatever you want, so long as it meets your macros and calorie goal. My argument is that their are foods you have suggest in previous posts that should be avoided.
MrM - ive never said the diet needs to be 100% clean, I don't know why you keep saying that. Therefore I won't explain the science behind it because that doesn't relate to anything I've said.
You've said I've never done anything so shouldn't advise people. First of all, how do you know what I've done and achieved? Secondly, last year I gained 22lbs and my body fat increased by 0.8%, tel me your method has better results than that?
I think that also answers your next argument. But also, you've said your not telling people to eat s bunch of crap, that is your argument against me, so what are you talking about? Your whole argument was for people to eat whatever they want within their calories and macro goals and they'll be fine. My argument was that is not the best way to do it.
Any more questions or irrelevant comments?
so you stated something that is no accurate then, right?
you are not going to answer my question because the answer will invalidate what you have been posting. The answer is if they both eat in a surplus and both hit macro/micro targets they will both gain about the same mass.
So you are saying that ice cream should be avoided during a bulk? Ok, then please explain why.
You say that you are not advocating eating 100% clean, but then at the same time you are saying there are foods that should be avoided. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
I said something which didn't come out the way it was meant. The OP understood that, and understood what I meant, which was who the comment was intended for.
I don't know how from what I said you came to the conclusion that I am saying ice cream should be avoided in the bulk. That is not what I said nor what I intended to say/imply.
You absolutely can have it both ways. You can eat 'dirty' foods in moderation few and far between, but you cannot eat whatever you want like your implying.
When @ndj1979 says 'eat whatever you want', he means 'eat whatever you want in moderation.'0 -
Eat at a surplus. The higher the surplus the higher the fat gain and higher chance you can add muscle. Limit your cardio to light sessions to help keep extra fat down. Take pics or have your bodyfat measured to give you a good baseline.0
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Poor OP just needs to eat more. Period. He doesn't need to avoid foods, restrict sugar, or any of the other nonsense. To gain weight he must eat more calories then he burns in a day. To gain weight in the form of muscle he needs to eat more calories then he burns, get in adequate protein, and lift weights while progressively increasing the load. To gain weight in the form of muscle and minimize fat gain, he must do everything in the previous sentence while also keeping the surplus small. That's literally it. Sure it's a good idea to eat some fruits and vegetables for vitamins/minerals and whole grains for fiber, but that has more to do with overall health, not really results. It certainly has NOTHING to do with how much fat is gained. That's almost completely related to the size of the deficit and training. Ice cream is delicious and can be eaten when dieting or bulking. Same with cookies, same with any food in existence.
A good strategy for the OP would be to pick a reasonable calorie number, maybe 15 or 16 calories per lb he weighs to start. Eat that combined with around 0.8 grams of protein per lb he weighs. Give it a few weeks. If you are gaining at an appropriate pace, about 0.5 lbs a week, continue on. If you are not gaining, add in some calories. Anytime weight stalls for a few weeks, add in some calories. If weight gain becomes too rapid, reduce some calories. Keep it simple OP. Don't try and avoid foods or types of fat. Just keep a close eye on calories and adjust based on personal results.
That's about it.0 -
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