Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap
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I think the real problem here is simply that you're just not familiar with what most good beginner programs recommend. Any one that I've ever seen recommends starting with very light weight and focusing on technique. I started with Stronglifts and Starting Strength which both have you start with just the bar (as do many others). Plus they have comprehensive text and video on perfecting your form. You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.0
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Isn't "lifting heavy" just a colloquialism for using free weights/barbells instead of machines and high rep/little (3-5 lb) dumbells or bodyweight routines? (ETA: Or at least, building up to the point of using free weights/barbells/bigger dumbbells?)0
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I think the real problem here is simply that you're just not familiar with what most good beginner programs recommend. Any one that I've ever seen recommends starting with very light weight and focusing on technique. I started with Stronglifts which has you start with just the bar (as do many others). You're complaining about a problem that doesn't exist.
Bingo! OP--DYELB?
I don't, but I read lots and lots, and I've never seen a program that does not have a beginner assessment, including no bar/bar only/appropriately deloaded/etc. to introduce noobs to the exercises without risk of injury due to "too much/too soon."
Heck, even my Body By You (Mark Lauren) program tells beginners to start with the easiest exercises and progress until form breaks (not even to failure) to find our starting place. First exercise is wall pushups--yep, standing up with hands on the wall, to perfect form.0 -
OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X50 -
Pretty much every recommendation to 'lift heavy' that I've seen has been partnered with recommendations to read well respected publications like 'Starting Strength' or 'New Rules of Lifting', which include beginner focused progressive programs that typically start with an empty bar or less.
People are also encouraged to film their form and allow more experienced lifters to critique and advise them.
In short, I agree with DopeItUp. Your thinking would be sound if people were just being told to load up 3 plates and squat, but that's generally not what's happening. And I'm pretty sure anyone that did recommend that would be ripped a new one by the experienced and responsible lifters of the forum.0 -
Purely anecdotal evidence for you - I was one of those people two years ago that had never picked up a barbell in my life. The good people of MFP directed me to some incredible learning resources and, starting with an empty bar, I began my slow and steady introduction to weightlifting. I've never been injured.
In the new year I hit a 365lb conventional deadlift. This morning I hit 5x405lb rackpulls. Nice neutral back on both, no drama. Because I built slow and focus on form.
The beginner who opts to only hear 'lift heavy' and ignore 'start light' and 'review all these resources' only has themselves to blame for injuries. Not people who told them that barbell training was a great tool for increasing all round health.0 -
cheshirecatastrophe wrote: »Isn't "lifting heavy" just a colloquialism for using free weights/barbells instead of machines and high rep/little (3-5 lb) dumbells or bodyweight routines? (ETA: Or at least, building up to the point of using free weights/barbells/bigger dumbbells?)
Honestly, that's how I've mostly interpreted it on these boards.
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3dogsrunning wrote: »madslacker wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
I've not seen a program that calls for the bar only. I mentioned a few.
I think those programs are perfectly acceptable for people who have conditioned their bodies as a whole in preparation for getting stronger (or potentially someone under some serious supervision from a quality trainer)- but not for your average flabby guy/gal out there trying to lose fat.
Strong Curves, an often recommended program here, has a beginner program that doesn't even use the bar at first.
Stronglifts suggests starting with the bar or even lower weight if necessary.
Those are the only two I've read personally. I suspect NROL also does.
NROL does indeed start with dumbbell, body weight, and machine suggestions. It was the very book the forums suggested to me when I was tour avergae flabby out of shape gal and i felt it catered to beginners perfectly. I'm doing Strong Curves now which, as you noted, has a body weight program as well as a chapter that deals in depth with stretching and flexibility.
Not sure how much more beginner it could get.0 -
Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Did you actually read the SL 5*5 material and watch the many videos on form that the author has up?
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Not to mention the fact that there is probably an equal (or greater) chance of injury for a beginner lifter who is just picking isolation exercises at random. Designing a lifting program is complex, and having a newbie pick and choose which isolation exercises they want to do is virtually guaranteeing that they will not be doing any kind of a balanced program.0
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Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.0 -
I can't even...0
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Lift with a good program and you'll get stronger.madslacker wrote: »I just get annoyed when I see stickies about weight loss and/or strength training (geared for beginners) and see the suggestion to "lift heavy and do the big compounds".
Particularly for the untrained. You're not credible enough to argue that. Unless of course you have a large body of published work on the PLoS for us to peruse.
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stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Yup.
sometimes, people just don't know what they don't know. In this case, a cheated rep is no rep.0 -
I had a book on barbells and then noticed NROL on the forums - bought the book, started last February and have continued to progress.
The info is there if you are open - which admittedly a lot of people aren't. But those of us that have found it - what a pleasant surprise!0 -
stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Truth.
I had to have this talk with my husband (he's a cardio bunny but I love him anyway) and his squats. Being able to knock out five ugly as sin squat/good morning hybrids does not a successful set make, sorry. That isn't the right form so it isn't the right 'lift' so you might as well have not done it.
Also a good way to screw up your back.0 -
Do you even?0
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cwolfman13 wrote: »madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
I've always seen beginners advised to follow a beginner program...which most start with nothing more than the bar, if that. I've never seen anyone tell a beginner to just go out and squat and load up the bar.
^Agreed. I have no clue what forum this guy is reading that he thought to come on here and start wagging a finger at people. Obviously not this one. Maybe, OP, you should read the threads a bit and get an idea of what is actually being said instead of jumping the gun and assuming things.0 -
stumblinthrulife wrote: »Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
Sounds like you missed the part of the program that very specifically instructs 'with proper form'. A rep with poor form is a missed rep, and should be handled as such. That in itself would slow the progression of the program.
If you were cheating reps, then you were pushing the program too fast, not the other way around.
Yup.
sometimes, people just don't know what they don't know. In this case, a cheated rep is no rep.
I think unfortunately, people don't actually read these programs or actually follow the instructions...judging purely from the many posters who are befuddled by this very simple calculator, it is not a shocker that people don't actually read instructions or actually follow the programs that they say they're working with.
Nothing anyone can do about that...you can't fix stupid.0 -
Wookinpanub wrote: »OP - I agree. I started last March and slowly worked my way up improving cardio, strength, flexibility. I am still a novice lifter and I started SL 5X5 in December and I must say I think it was pushing me too fast and too heavy. When the weights got heavy, I was cheating on some lifts and would be very sore afterwards and eventually hurt my knee on the squats.
I have since significantly deloaded and am progressing the weights much slower and only doing the 3X5
It sounds like you didn't actually read the PDF/follow through on the instructions of SL 5x5. Medhi frequently mentions starting with the bar and stresses about form.
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