Lift heavy, get strong, rawr! - Total load of crap
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i guess beginners could never use MFP either….becuase they would set it for "unsafe" weight loss….0
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I lost a lot of weight but I was actually not weak when I started last April at 45 lbs, 35 lb. bar with 2 5 lb. weights. I read the instructions for StrongLifts and watched the videos every time, over and over and over. I video myself and watch it over and over and over. I was in a car accident in early December where I got a bad left-side only whiplash (got hit on Drivers side) and the insurance company said to me the only reason they thought I didn't get hurt worse was because I lift weights (I had to tell them because I asked for diagnostics at the hospital/Doctor to make sure I could go right back to it when I felt well enough). I had to start all over, back to 40 lbs. (I have fractionals now) after a lot of progression for 9 months. I am making great progress, I have used weight lifting as my physical therapy. I don't notice the difference between sides anymore. I am 53, and to say you should not do it if there is not some physical limitation is BS, it is the best thing you can do for yourself as you age, and if you can do it you should (that last sentence was not my opinion, that was my Doctor's opinion).
Please don't discourage people when lifting can be the right thing for them. I got hurt doing cardio, even HIIT for years, I got a hiatal hernia and got depressed as it gave me a lot of problems like GERD, I hardly exercised for a year and gained 20 lbs. on top of the 50 extra I already had, 25 of which would come and go doing HIIT all the time.
Weight lifting is helping me be strong and get/stay in shape. I don't have much weight left to lose, but I don't even care anymore because I am more interested in transforming my body. Cardio never did that for me, and I am not against cardio, but I do mostly walking for my cardio now...and that hernia? I don't even notice it anymore and my GERD is long gone.
Don't discourage people, let them find out what is right for them, if I listened to you I would not have done StrongLifts, and it has been the best thing for me out of anything I have ever tried.0 -
perseverance14 wrote: »I lost a lot of weight but I was actually not weak when I started last April at 45 lbs, 35 lb. bar with 2 5 lb. weights. I read the instructions for StrongLifts and watched the videos every time, over and over and over. I video myself and watch it over and over and over. I was in a car accident in early December where I got a bad left-side only whiplash (got hit on Drivers side) and the insurance company said to me the only reason they thought I didn't get hurt worse was because I lift weights (I had to tell them because I asked for diagnostics at the hospital/Doctor to make sure I could go right back to it when I felt well enough). I had to start all over, back to 40 lbs. (I have fractionals now) after a lot of progression for 9 months. I am making great progress, I have used weight lifting as my physical therapy. I don't notice the difference between sides anymore. I am 53, and to say you should not do it if there is not some physical limitation is BS, it is the best thing you can do for yourself as you age, and if you can do it you should (that last sentence was not my opinion, that was my Doctor's opinion).
Please don't discourage people when lifting can be the right thing for them. I got hurt doing cardio, even HIIT for years, I got a hiatal hernia and got depressed as it gave me a lot of problems like GERD, I hardly exercised for a year and gained 20 lbs. on top of the 50 extra I already had, 25 of which would come and go doing HIIT all the time.
Weight lifting is helping me be strong and get/stay in shape. I don't have much weight left to lose, but I don't even care anymore because I am more interested in transforming my body. Cardio never did that for me, and I am not against cardio, but I do mostly walking for my cardio now...and that hernia? I don't even notice it anymore and my GERD is long gone.
Don't discourage people, let them find out what is right for them, if I listened to you I would not have done StrongLifts, and it has been the best thing for me out of anything I have ever tried.
Awesome job! Thanks for sharing!0 -
I have suffered injuries from lifting and jogging because my joints just weren't ready for it. My elbows and right knee hurt for quite some time. But I must say that the guy who runs the SL 5*5 website and app really stresses good form and warming up/ building up to your 5*5 weight and not just jumping into it. I finally started feeling my bench press in my chest because I improved my form(used my legs and core). And I could lift bench more once I corrected my form.
At the end of the day, it is your responsibility to do the necessary research for anything health/fitness related. I read many things and watched many how to's for lifting and jogging/running... Before and after my injuries.0 -
You know, to some people, lifting a 45-pound barbell with nothing on it <i>is</i> lifting heavy. I did a dumbbell program for a few months, working up to lifting 20-25 pounds on most of my sets. I just switched to NROLFW and wow, it's taking some time to get used to the bar. And that's just with squats and deadlifts. So I want to make sure I'm learning and getting it down before I can start adding weight.
i started the same way after joining mfp..sure a lot of posts said lift lift lift but anyone who just jumps in is only fooling themselves.. i also think theres a huge difference between squatting with dumbbells or even bodyweight and then moving onto the barbells..its a tough move and it takes some getting used to..im only on month 3 of 5x5 and I'm sticking at 50lbs for a while longer till I'm actually used to it all ..
dont assume that all members here haven't got a brain.0 -
So, yeah. I wasn't trolling and actually had a point I was trying to make.
I'll define what I think people mean when they say lift heavy. I think that people are saying lift to progress (progressive overload). Lift to get stronger.
My issue with that isn't that I think people are being told to throw caution to the wind and load up the bar. I'm also aware of the fact that form is heavily focused on and the dangers of progressing at the expense of form are made clear.
I'll share the specifics of my own challenge to help clarify what I'm saying/
I'm in my 30's and have lived an unfortunately sedentary lifestyle. Poor posture (including work as I sit in an office in front of a laptop for my entire work day), lack of physical activity, poor diet, all contributing to my current state of being.
I hired a trainer in the beginning to help me with form (not being a total dummy). I researched (starting strength, burn the fat feed the muscle, bodybuilding forums, etc.) and came away with the following conclusions:
1. Lift to progress (lift heavy).
2. Machines / Isolation lifts can be counter productive (especially if you don't start with the core compound lifts to get a solid foundation).
3. Never sacrifice form.
I personally chose to use Allpros routine on bb.com because I felt more comfortable with the rep range. I tested and chose a weight that I was comfortable with. I could do reps of 10 without sacrificing form and deload the first week (as recommended) by using that weight as my start (sets of 8). I then started to work through the program.
Here are my personal observations about why that didn't work well for me (and why I can assume it may not work well for other beginners with a similar starting point).
The problem I ran into wasn't really about proper form. It was a problem of my overall conditioning. As I started to work through the program, I got stronger. Presses (bench and overhead) I did particularly well at. My shoulders, chest, back got stronger and I progressed (in my opinion) fairly well. While as a beginner I don't think I had formed a solid connection between my mind and body that comes from lifting experience (feeling the muscles being engaged by a given movement and really understanding my center of balance, etc.) I think I did well (especially with a solid trainer over my shoulder).
My problem was my starting point. My pecs and shoulders may have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my rotator cuff simply wasn't.
My quads my have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my knees (that had been abused by years of supporting my fat frame) were unfortunately not.
What I feel was needed, before ever trying to attempt a progressive strength building routine, was months of conditioning. Months of building the mind/body connection so that my form would be perfect. Months of strengthening the supportive muscles and stabilizers to prepare to attempt to build strength.
I think that's the kind of cautionary approach that should be taken by the new people out there. Not everyone will run into my particular problems or any at all - but the issue is that you don't always know you're going to be susceptible to these kinds of injuries until they happen (again, caused by lack of conditioning - sometimes for YEARS).
Perhaps that makes more sense or am I totally off my rocker?0 -
madslacker wrote: »
My problem was my starting point. My pecs and shoulders may have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my rotator cuff simply wasn't.
My quads my have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my knees (that had been abused by years of supporting my fat frame) were unfortunately not.
What I feel was needed, before ever trying to attempt a progressive strength building routine, was months of conditioning. Months of building the mind/body connection so that my form would be perfect. Months of strengthening the supportive muscles and stabilizers to prepare to attempt to build strength.
I think that's the kind of cautionary approach that should be taken by the new people out there. Not everyone will run into my particular problems or any at all - but the issue is that you don't always know you're going to be susceptible to these kinds of injuries until they happen (again, caused by lack of conditioning - sometimes for YEARS).
Perhaps that makes more sense or am I totally off my rocker?
No, you are just where you should be. You've made progress. You've learned the basics of lifting and have reached the point where the main lifts need more accessory work to improve those supportive and stabilizer muscles.
Yes, a trainer should have included some one arm and one leg exercises to encourage greater stabilization of supportive muscles. Even with months of "conditioning" you may not have ever realized you had those issues until you reached the point where your strength was great enough to show you that your joints can't keep up. Now you can either learn how to work around those weak points or improve them.
Barbell bench press and back squats aren't the only compound exercises that work those muscles. There are others that require lighter weights, greater stabilization and still work the same muscles. Feel free to go do some conditioning if that's what you would like. Your experience doesn't mean that lifting was a bad idea for you.0 -
I'm a 50 year old male 198lbs. . Started lifting in mid November, my first day doing deadlifts I was able to easily do 225 for 8 reps. The next week I was and am still doing 315lb lifts if my grip was better I would add another 20 lbs.. I have had back problems in the past and now that I'm building muscle my back feels great.
As for bench pressing. My first day I was doing 115lbs for 8 reps. I'm now doing 155. I tried 185 but could only do 1press. I work out with a seasoned power lifter and he guides me on form and also suggests alternatives if he thinks I need them. I plan on upping my bench press to 165 this week.
I can only suggest doing what you feel comfortable doing. My first day at the gym I tried with just the bar to get a feel for it. Then we started adding on 20lb at a time until I was up to 115lbs. I stayed at that weight for 3 weeks.0 -
OP - why are you just singling out the advice to lift heavy? It seems to me that this could apply to any beginner program for running, swimming, body weight training, circuit training, yoga,etc….
so basically, no one can ever start lifting program because, beginner?
that is absurd….
most posts from the OP have been absurd.0 -
madslacker wrote: »So, yeah. I wasn't trolling and actually had a point I was trying to make.
I'll define what I think people mean when they say lift heavy. I think that people are saying lift to progress (progressive overload). Lift to get stronger.
My issue with that isn't that I think people are being told to throw caution to the wind and load up the bar. I'm also aware of the fact that form is heavily focused on and the dangers of progressing at the expense of form are made clear.
I'll share the specifics of my own challenge to help clarify what I'm saying/
I'm in my 30's and have lived an unfortunately sedentary lifestyle. Poor posture (including work as I sit in an office in front of a laptop for my entire work day), lack of physical activity, poor diet, all contributing to my current state of being.
I hired a trainer in the beginning to help me with form (not being a total dummy). I researched (starting strength, burn the fat feed the muscle, bodybuilding forums, etc.) and came away with the following conclusions:
1. Lift to progress (lift heavy).
2. Machines / Isolation lifts can be counter productive (especially if you don't start with the core compound lifts to get a solid foundation).
3. Never sacrifice form.
I personally chose to use Allpros routine on bb.com because I felt more comfortable with the rep range. I tested and chose a weight that I was comfortable with. I could do reps of 10 without sacrificing form and deload the first week (as recommended) by using that weight as my start (sets of 8). I then started to work through the program.
Here are my personal observations about why that didn't work well for me (and why I can assume it may not work well for other beginners with a similar starting point).
The problem I ran into wasn't really about proper form. It was a problem of my overall conditioning. As I started to work through the program, I got stronger. Presses (bench and overhead) I did particularly well at. My shoulders, chest, back got stronger and I progressed (in my opinion) fairly well. While as a beginner I don't think I had formed a solid connection between my mind and body that comes from lifting experience (feeling the muscles being engaged by a given movement and really understanding my center of balance, etc.) I think I did well (especially with a solid trainer over my shoulder).
My problem was my starting point. My pecs and shoulders may have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my rotator cuff simply wasn't.
My quads my have been ready to add more weight to the bar, but my knees (that had been abused by years of supporting my fat frame) were unfortunately not.
What I feel was needed, before ever trying to attempt a progressive strength building routine, was months of conditioning. Months of building the mind/body connection so that my form would be perfect. Months of strengthening the supportive muscles and stabilizers to prepare to attempt to build strength.
I think that's the kind of cautionary approach that should be taken by the new people out there. Not everyone will run into my particular problems or any at all - but the issue is that you don't always know you're going to be susceptible to these kinds of injuries until they happen (again, caused by lack of conditioning - sometimes for YEARS).
Perhaps that makes more sense or am I totally off my rocker?
You started to high and progressed too fast. IMO, all pros is too much time under tension, especially for a beginner. Also, the weight you add starts low but gets progressively large in jumps. Plus, the regressive progressive routine is fine for building sarcoplasmic hypertrophy but not really great for building myofibril hypertrophy. I'm opposed to stiff legged deads and curls, too much isolation. Plus building the biceps up in isolation strains the rotator cuff. Bent over rows create an ability to cheat the row, so pendlay rows are a better choice. These should also help protect your rotator cuff.
Also, are you benching correct? Have you done a proper arch and isolated your chest keeping proper tangential tension on the bar while your doing it, with proper width? If not you're putting strain on your shoulders and rotator cuffs.
No need for calf raises.
Are you squatting far enough to not build up your legs improperly? Are you making sure to push out with your knees on the way down and the way up so your knees are constantly in proper placement. Did you work this well with body weight?
I recommend that you watch the eliteFTS videos on "So you think you can..." Bench, squat, dead lift, etc. They are long but worth it. They are usually six parters. Start with the squat here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ME8gEN54Ao
You need to build a foundation and you need to take your time doing that. It took you a long time to get out of shape, it will take a long time to get in shape. Stick with compound lifts. Isolation is great if you are strong and looking to do certain things, but you're not there. Getting yourself strong is one of the best things you can do for an aging body. It holds the joints in place, keeps you from hurting, etc. etc.0 -
I only skimmed a few posts.
I think
- A lot of people get really gung-ho when they start something
- Not a lot of people have access to good face-to-face instruction. Lots can't afford it, but also, there's a lack of good instruction at a lot of gyms. So even those who can afford a trainer sometimes come up craps
- Most people here do advocate starting with a beginner's program. Which is good. (But I don't like the program that asks people to add 5 lbs every time, it's too focused on adding pounds as the goal.) I know that Rippetoe guy is a form freak, however, I haven't done more than scan some blogs about his ideas, and I bet I'm not the only one.
- Sadly, a lot of programs (e.g. beachbody, insanity, crossfit, etc) make their money on promising the moon via intense workouts to middle aged people on a mission. I.e. middle aged people who've been sedentary for 20 years and shouldn't be surprised to find themselves with lifelong injuries.
- I don't know what can be done about all that.
- I wish there were some charismatic fitness personality out there who could get out the message to take things s l o w l y. But that's a major wet blanket, and inherently off-putting as an idea to people who are on fire about getting muscley biceps or butts or whatever.0 -
AllanMisner wrote: »madslacker wrote: »AllanMisner wrote: »Why do you assume that all calls to lift heavy don’t also come with go slow, learn the form, and progress responsibly? Initially, heavy can be body weight progressions. Would you rather have them go with machines or just not lift at all?
Undoubtedly - they do. I don't think anyone would preach lift heavy over lift with proper form.
The problem is that we're talking about advice to beginners who:
- probably don't know how close they are to failure or not
- don't truly understand the exercises they're performing
- certainly don't understand responsible progress, because they've never experienced it.
- Ultimately, have the potential to use weight that the major muscles can handle, but their joints, ligaments, knees, rotator cuff can't. Squeezing off that last rep or two as a test to progress can be the death of your shoulders.
I'm simply suggesting that "lift heavy" is poor advice to beginners who aren't ready to do so. Some people with good genes will have high success with this kind of advice. Many won't. It just seems irresponsible.
Okay, I’ll bite. Don’t lift until you learn how to lift, which you can’t do because you don’t know how to lift. And even then, you’re not fit enough to lift, so don’t lift until you’re fit enough to lift. How do we get beginners to lift weight that can actually do them some good?
The five primary lifts I propose people do (squat, deadlift, bench press, row/pull up, and overhead press) are basic functional movements that most of us have been doing as part of our daily living for all of our lives. Yes, form often has to be corrected (primarily due to mobility and strength imbalances). But I take the mindset that they are here to learn and they won’t just run off and attempt 300lb squats because they were told lifting heavy will benefit them. In fact, most of the least experienced are typically encouraged to seek out a personal trainer.
I also think you’re over emphasizing the inherent weaknesses of the untrained. Most will never come close to pushing themselves past the limitations of their connective tissue.
totally disagree with bolded.0 -
I think anyone over 30 (or ok 32 maybe), if they haven't been continuously active since adolescence/have no training history or experiential knowledge about their own bodies or the sport, should be careful about any new activity they introduce. Especially if they're overweight. Running's the worst, though. Obese people especially should start with walking for cardio.
*steps off soapbox*0 -
OP, actually I get what you are saying. There are a few people on this site who clearly know what they are doing. Most of them are also the ones who love lifting but do not act like everything else is useless. And then there are posters who appear to think that a dance class per week makes you a stupic cardio bunny, that isolation exercises are useless, machines are for geriatric patients, most sports are not going to help you increase strength, and pretty much the beginning and end of training is doing the basic compound lifts. ND NOTHING ELSE. And if you do nto like it, or cannot do it right, you are a scared person doomed to never being fit. Oh, and HIIT, HIIT is trendy too, even though what half the posters who preach about it, clearly have no clue what it is.
Do not get me wrong, I like lifting. I am doing it. But telling every single person who posts here that 5 compound lifts are the beginning and end of fitness, regardless of this person's body type, health issues, strength, goals and personal preferences, it is both ridiculous and dangerous. It is awesome to encourage people to try lifting and to let them know that everyone can get there, that deadlifts are not something for bulky bodybuilders wishing to get into competitions. But it is ridiculous to treat the 2-3 popular programs the new enthusiasts here are so fond of as some sort of holy bible for getting in shape.
And form: no, I do nto believe that the average person who has never exercised, will watch a few videos and read a book, will not talk to a trainer and is not in a gym to get tips from others, but will actually figure out the correct form for most compound exercises. Will perhaps be able to parrot what correct form should look like, but will not do it. And will also have no clue what he/she is doing wrong, and will jsut feel so smug for doing it right.
Get in the average gym and see how many regulars can do even a bodyweight squat properly. While most of them thing they are doing it perfectly, even with a trainer telling that what to fix. I doubt the posters here are so different and all just get it immediately after reading a book.0 -
You hired a trainer to teach you form, yet didn’t learn proper form? The trainer let you start too heavy and progress too fast? And then you were left to find your own program?
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When I started to lift weights most of the advise I got was start slow, super light. Bar only. I guess I never experienced what you are talking about.
Starting a program with basic moves like squats and dead lifts is still, in my opinion, the best way to start out. It builds overall strength in your entire body. Much better than doing an over complicated routine with random isolation exercises and 50 different pieces of equipment...0 -
A: "heavy" is relative
B: Everyone is a "beginner" at one point; if you don't pick-up a bar b/c you have never picked-up a bar...you will never pick-up a bar.
C: how do you develop a muscle/mind connection without exercising the muscle and the mind in unison?0
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