If you're not building muscle in a deficit, you're...
Alatariel75
Posts: 18,345 Member
what? I had a conversation with an aquaintence who commented on my weight loss as really noticable, even though she saw me about 6 weeks ago and I've only lost a kilo since then. When I mentioned that it was strange that she wasn't the first to mention I suddenly looked smaller (despite basically being on a self-induced plateau since November), she trotted out the "you must be replacing fat with muscle" theory.
I tried to explain that this isn't how it works, and even if I was strength training, you don't build muscle on a deficit. She asked then - how come people strength training while on a diet get stronger? and I realised I didn't have an answer, just a concept that your exising muscles get... what? more efficient? stronger, if not bigger?
Can someone explain?
Thank you!
I tried to explain that this isn't how it works, and even if I was strength training, you don't build muscle on a deficit. She asked then - how come people strength training while on a diet get stronger? and I realised I didn't have an answer, just a concept that your exising muscles get... what? more efficient? stronger, if not bigger?
Can someone explain?
Thank you!
0
Replies
-
I'm not an expert, but from what I have learned...
Strength and growth are not the same. You can get stronger in a deficit, but not bigger (except the "newbie gains" some people experience).0 -
You can strengthen the muscles you already have, but you can't grow them bigger.0
-
-
Alatariel75 wrote: »what? I had a conversation with an aquaintence who commented on my weight loss as really noticable, even though she saw me about 6 weeks ago and I've only lost a kilo since then. When I mentioned that it was strange that she wasn't the first to mention I suddenly looked smaller (despite basically being on a self-induced plateau since November), she trotted out the "you must be replacing fat with muscle" theory.
I tried to explain that this isn't how it works, and even if I was strength training, you don't build muscle on a deficit. She asked then - how come people strength training while on a diet get stronger? and I realised I didn't have an answer, just a concept that your exising muscles get... what? more efficient? stronger, if not bigger?
Can someone explain?
Thank you!
If you're eating at maintenance and in a plateau but doing weights, isn't that pretty much the equivalent of doing a recomposition (eat at maintenance, lift, lose fat, gain muscle)?0 -
When you're first starting out with training, you can definitely see some muscle gains while eating at a deficit. There are also some theories about within day calorie surpluses and deficits, but I'm not sure how well researched they are, or if it they fit into the category of bro science.0
-
Yes you can build some muscle in a small calorie deficit, especially if you are new (or returning) to weights and if you are "over fat" - as Lyle McDonald quaintly phrases it.
Essentially you are pulling some of the energy required to build muscle from your fat reserves.
BTW - there is only a loose connection between strength and muscle growth, you can get an awful lot stronger without adding any more muscle mass. Again this is very pronounced in newbies to strength training or those returning after a break. Your nervous system is geting better at recruiting your existing muscle fibres.0 -
Cool, that's kind of what I thought/explained.0
-
You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........0
-
You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
^THIS!^
Plus, people are than convinced that their gains on a deficit are not possible, so they start to believe that, even though the mirror, tells them otherwise.0 -
You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
This doesn't make any sense to me.0 -
A lot of your gains in the beginning are neural adaptations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_adaptation
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/beginning-weight-training-part-2.html/
If you're a newbie or overfat you can gain some muscle, although it's definitely not going to be as much as you would build at maintenance or in a surplus.0 -
Yes you can build some muscle in a small calorie deficit, especially if you are new (or returning) to weights and if you are "over fat" - as Lyle McDonald quaintly phrases it.
Essentially you are pulling some of the energy required to build muscle from your fat reserves.
BTW - there is only a loose connection between strength and muscle growth, you can get an awful lot stronger without adding any more muscle mass. Again this is very pronounced in newbies to strength training or those returning after a break. Your nervous system is getting better at recruiting your existing muscle fibres.
^this.
Also, muscle size change due to water retention (good) during training will make muscles look bigger. This increase in cross section also results in static strength increase.0 -
My experience.
I lost 75 pounds while in a 1-pound per week deficit over a period of 18 months and became lean, strong, gained muscle and lost fat. Fact!
During this deficit - I went to the gym every other day...4 days one week, 3 days the next, repeat. I did three 15 minute sets of weights broken up by three 15 minute sets of cardio - 90 minute routine...every other day...all while in a deficit. I did this without fail...never missed a day unless dead or dying.
When I started I could not do one chin up, one (legit) push up, 10 crunches without a pause, etc. At the end of 18 months of working out hard (I mean I was serious), all while in a 1-pound per week deficit, I could do 7 legit chin-ups from a dead-hang (albeit #7 was ugly)...I could do push-ups all day long...I did Insanity...cycled for miles and miles and miles, etc. I did this all at age 51-52 (I am 54 now).
I also never got big...just lean.
My biceps, chest, forearms all increased in size, but they did not get huge. I looked lean and well toned. My waist and hips all got smaller. My gut disappeared. I had broad shoulders and narrow hips...I also got my body fat down to a level where my six pack was just beginning to show in just the right light, with a little Photoshop help
I could take my shirt off at the beach and not have to suck in my gut. Etc.
So - don't let anyone ever tell you that you can't gain muscle in a deficit. You can. You just won't get big and ripped.
In closing - Please do not critique my gym routine - it worked for me. My suggestion is for you, while running a deficit, to find something you can do and stick with it. When doing cardio - do it hard - so hard it is hard to talk or wear a HRM and make sure you are in the right zone. Free weights are waaaay more difficult to start with than machines but do sooooo much more for you in the long run. Do not be a chicken...get started with free weights. Get a trainer if needed. Everyone a the gym started sometime and most are willing to help if you ask for some pointers.
Cheers!0 -
Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »My experience.
I lost 75 pounds while in a 1-pound per week deficit over a period of 18 months and became lean, strong, gained muscle and lost fat. Fact!
During this deficit - I went to the gym every other day...4 days one week, 3 days the next, repeat. I did three 15 minute sets of weights broken up by three 15 minute sets of cardio - 90 minute routine...every other day...all while in a deficit. I did this without fail...never missed a day unless dead or dying.
When I started I could not do one chin up, one (legit) push up, 10 crunches without a pause, etc. At the end of 18 months of working out hard (I mean I was serious), all while in a 1-pound per week deficit, I could do 7 legit chin-ups from a dead-hang (albeit #7 was ugly)...I could do push-ups all day long...I did Insanity...cycled for miles and miles and miles, etc. I did this all at age 51-52 (I am 54 now).
I also never got big...just lean.
My biceps, chest, forearms all increased in size, but they did not get huge. I looked lean and well toned. My waist and hips all got smaller. My gut disappeared. I had broad shoulders and narrow hips...I also got my body fat down to a level where my six pack was just beginning to show in just the right light, with a little Photoshop help I could take my shirt off at the beach and not have to suck in my gut. Etc.
So - don't let anyone ever tell you that you can't gain muscle in a deficit. You can. You just won't get big and ripped.
In closing - Please do not critique my gym routine - it worked for me. My suggestion is for you, while running a deficit, to find something you can do and stick with it. When doing cardio - do it hard - so hard it is hard to talk or wear a HRM and make sure you are in the right zone. Free weights are waaaay more difficult to start with than machines but do sooooo much more for you in the long run. Do not be a chicken...get started with free weights. Get a trainer if needed. Everyone a the gym started sometime and most are willing to help if you ask for some pointers.
Cheers!
Great post. I've experienced the exact same thing. I've lost 38 pounds but I've gotten stronger and bigger in the right areas, so you can definitely gain muscle in a deficit. It's a fact!0 -
Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »My experience.
I lost 75 pounds while in a 1-pound per week deficit over a period of 18 months and became lean, strong, gained muscle and lost fat. Fact!
During this deficit - I went to the gym every other day...4 days one week, 3 days the next, repeat. I did three 15 minute sets of weights broken up by three 15 minute sets of cardio - 90 minute routine...every other day...all while in a deficit. I did this without fail...never missed a day unless dead or dying.
When I started I could not do one chin up, one (legit) push up, 10 crunches without a pause, etc. At the end of 18 months of working out hard (I mean I was serious), all while in a 1-pound per week deficit, I could do 7 legit chin-ups from a dead-hang (albeit #7 was ugly)...I could do push-ups all day long...I did Insanity...cycled for miles and miles and miles, etc. I did this all at age 51-52 (I am 54 now).
I also never got big...just lean.
My biceps, chest, forearms all increased in size, but they did not get huge. I looked lean and well toned. My waist and hips all got smaller. My gut disappeared. I had broad shoulders and narrow hips...I also got my body fat down to a level where my six pack was just beginning to show in just the right light, with a little Photoshop help I could take my shirt off at the beach and not have to suck in my gut. Etc.
So - don't let anyone ever tell you that you can't gain muscle in a deficit. You can. You just won't get big and ripped.
In closing - Please do not critique my gym routine - it worked for me. My suggestion is for you, while running a deficit, to find something you can do and stick with it. When doing cardio - do it hard - so hard it is hard to talk or wear a HRM and make sure you are in the right zone. Free weights are waaaay more difficult to start with than machines but do sooooo much more for you in the long run. Do not be a chicken...get started with free weights. Get a trainer if needed. Everyone a the gym started sometime and most are willing to help if you ask for some pointers.
Cheers!
I needed to see this today. Thank you, and congrats on your success!!
0 -
You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
No lies, what you describe is exactly what people say can happen. You were new to lifting had excessive fat and only made Midwest gains in size. That is in line with the prevailing wisdom on this site.
0 -
Modest not Midwest.0
-
This.ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »A lot of your gains in the beginning are neural adaptations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_adaptation
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/beginning-weight-training-part-2.html/
If you're a newbie or overfat you can gain some muscle, although it's definitely not going to be as much as you would build at maintenance or in a surplus.
Also, think of competitors who do Olympic and powerlifting in weight classes. Their objective isn't to gain or lose any weight, but to get stronger. If they go up in weight, they'll move out of their class. So they just train on strength increasing and many do get stronger without bodyweight changing.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
Hi there
I am not reading any of the comments I am only going to talk to you about MY personal experience. I am a big girl, around 180 and short. I started lifing weights about 3 months ago (CLX) I have lost 2 pants size but no weight. I eat 1700 calories a day and have tried to go lower but cannot increase my weights when I go below those calories. I am also on a LCHF diet. I hope you keep getting complimented it is great for the self esteem!!!! Feel free to add me. 0 -
P.S. I am NOT a newbie....sorry forgot to add that 0
-
KirbySmith46 wrote: »Go_Mizzou99 wrote: »My experience.
I lost 75 pounds while in a 1-pound per week deficit over a period of 18 months and became lean, strong, gained muscle and lost fat. Fact!
During this deficit - I went to the gym every other day...4 days one week, 3 days the next, repeat. I did three 15 minute sets of weights broken up by three 15 minute sets of cardio - 90 minute routine...every other day...all while in a deficit. I did this without fail...never missed a day unless dead or dying.
When I started I could not do one chin up, one (legit) push up, 10 crunches without a pause, etc. At the end of 18 months of working out hard (I mean I was serious), all while in a 1-pound per week deficit, I could do 7 legit chin-ups from a dead-hang (albeit #7 was ugly)...I could do push-ups all day long...I did Insanity...cycled for miles and miles and miles, etc. I did this all at age 51-52 (I am 54 now).
I also never got big...just lean.
My biceps, chest, forearms all increased in size, but they did not get huge. I looked lean and well toned. My waist and hips all got smaller. My gut disappeared. I had broad shoulders and narrow hips...I also got my body fat down to a level where my six pack was just beginning to show in just the right light, with a little Photoshop help I could take my shirt off at the beach and not have to suck in my gut. Etc.
So - don't let anyone ever tell you that you can't gain muscle in a deficit. You can. You just won't get big and ripped.
In closing - Please do not critique my gym routine - it worked for me. My suggestion is for you, while running a deficit, to find something you can do and stick with it. When doing cardio - do it hard - so hard it is hard to talk or wear a HRM and make sure you are in the right zone. Free weights are waaaay more difficult to start with than machines but do sooooo much more for you in the long run. Do not be a chicken...get started with free weights. Get a trainer if needed. Everyone a the gym started sometime and most are willing to help if you ask for some pointers.
Cheers!
Great post. I've experienced the exact same thing. I've lost 38 pounds but I've gotten stronger and bigger in the right areas, so you can definitely gain muscle in a deficit. It's a fact!
Great post and it is working for me as well.. And I do not want to get ripped just leaner and look good naked!0 -
You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
^THIS!^
Plus, people are than convinced that their gains on a deficit are not possible, so they start to believe that, even though the mirror, tells them otherwise.
The mirror is a liar unless there are appropriate measurements to back it up. Losing fat makes muscles more defined. Lots of people mistake that for muscles getting bigger.0 -
You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
^THIS!^
Plus, people are than convinced that their gains on a deficit are not possible, so they start to believe that, even though the mirror, tells them otherwise.
The mirror is a liar unless there are appropriate measurements to back it up. Losing fat makes muscles more defined. Lots of people mistake that for muscles getting bigger.
And some people use tape measures and get scans done....
But yes people can mistake improved muscle definition for growth. It's part of the reason to not just rely on weight as your sole measure of success.0 -
I measure my biceps - they've grown an inch in the past few weeks. My thighs? Also getting bigger. I do fall into the newbie gains and, given that I didn't have a lot to lose to begin with, I'm going to ride those gains into my first lean bulk.You can grow muscle on a deficit, you just will not get big muscles. I am so tired of reading the lies on this board about it. Muscles will grow, fat is reduced, people look better. If you starve yourself or don't do strength training, then yes, your muscles will not grow in a deficit but if you maintain a decent deficit, strength train and have a good diet you will. Muscle changes are not all diet related. I wish some people would read and anatomy and physiology book........
^THIS!^
Plus, people are than convinced that their gains on a deficit are not possible, so they start to believe that, even though the mirror, tells them otherwise.
The mirror is a liar unless there are appropriate measurements to back it up. Losing fat makes muscles more defined. Lots of people mistake that for muscles getting bigger.
0 -
Thank you, OP, for asking this question. I've been wondering exactly the same thing! I've been doing cardio and strength training since I started losing weight. I know my body is capable of doing things that it couldn't do when I started, like push-ups, sitting up without using my arms, etc. Also I can "raise a bicep" so that it's noticable which I definitely couldn't do before. Some of that is just discovering the muscle under all the fat (i.e., it was already there but hidden) but some of it must be "increasing" the muscle. I don't know if that means it's bigger or just more ... usable?
Anyway, thanks all for the info!0 -
All I know is that the measurements in the areas I want them to go up keep going up, more veins keep showing up, more ripples keep showing up and waist keeps going down. Weight doesn't move. I don't care if or what can or is happening, I just like it...lol.0
-
The more existing muscle mass you have, the higher your strength potential. So from my understanding, someone that started off obese may have a longer period of time to continue getting stronger than someone who has much smaller muscles and is eating at a deficit.0
-
I've only had modest newbie gains over the past 6 months. So modest you couldn't really assess whether they exist because all my measurements have gone down since I've lost weight. All you really notice is more defined muscles.
My belief for me personally for why I haven't experienced the gains some do is that while I'm certainly new to lifting, I built a decent amount of muscle years ago that I managed to generally maintain through enough resistance work swimming. So my newbie gains really aren't noticeable. The only place I MAY have seen some gains is in glutes and that's purely a guess because I've maintained the same general size in that area but visibly lost fat. It makes sense because that would be the one area that would've been worked at a lesser rate when swimming compared to my quads and arms.
But what I have seen is a significant increase in strength through my progressive overloading. As others have stated, the ties between muscle size growth and strength gains aren't that tight and it's very normal to gain strength without significant muscle growth. You don't need the muscle to get significantly bigger to see significant increases in strength for a beginner.0 -
It's weird that I was just pondering this same question last night and here it is! Glad someone asked it for me.0
-
This is so much wrong in this thread, my head it beginning to hurt.
You cannot build muscle mass while in a deficit. That is a fact. Yes, your muscles will appear bigger, but that's because you're losing the fat around them which will make them more defined. They are not growing in size.
The "gains" you can get are from strength. Muscle size and strength are not directly related. The efficiency of your body and how well adapted your muscles are has more to do with actual strength than pure size. Muscles work by passing electrons from your nervous system to the muscle, causing them to contract. The more electrons you can transfer (sodium and potassium have a lot to do with this) and the more efficient and dense your muscles are, the stronger you will be. Strength training will improve the efficiency of this system, and can make your muscles more dense while in a caloric deficit. You will not, as mentioned before, build muscle mass or size while in a deficit.0
This discussion has been closed.
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.6K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.3K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.5K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 431 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.6K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.8K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions