Flexible Dieters (80/20, IIFYM) vs. Clean Eaters
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
All of them?Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »I know where I stand on this - I'm a clean eater if by clean eating you mean cleaning out the inside of my cereal/poptart/icecream containers once I've satisfied my micronutrient needs and have room in my macros. So it's not a personal matter but rather, a discussion topic that I (along with many others, I'm sure) would enjoy partaking in and hearing rational arguments from both POV's.
So...Here's your opportunity to explain your thought process with regards to your nutrition.
GO!
What micros are you logging, and how? Ie how do you know you're meeting your micro needs?
the phone app shows your micros when you click on the pie chart
viatamine C,,A, iron, and calcium…so five of them ...
Out of, what 45? 50?0 -
I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »@Sabine_Stroehm - I track what I can when it comes to micronutrients..Tracking 5 is better than none. And eating micro nutrient rich foods like fish, fruits, fibers, and veggies, etc. will cover the majority of them. That said, iifym is a tracking system that emphasizes the importance of CICO above anything else. Often times "clean eaters" have a misconception with regard to caloric needs and ideal amounts of macros. Bro dieting for example, is often a bit of rice, veggies and chicken... where's the fat? How about the carbs to protein ratio? Why cant i have a bag of chips? Where's the science? More times than not, these questions are left unanswered. And if they are mentioned, it's indirect, almost as if the dieter is supposed to know, like the science is just "common sense". From my experience with most of these meal plans, you're just given a list of what to eat, with no regard to how much... I don't buy not tracking it. I can handle the idea of eating wholesome foods, though.
It does emphasize calories. I'm not disagreeing.
I asked the question simply because someone just the other day said "if I've covered my macros and micros then why not have a treat" ("sure", is my answer). He had an open diary. I went back five to seven days and the *only* plant foods I saw were one potato, and a couple of plums. Otherwise it was pretty much meat, dairy, jiffy peanut butter, protein powder and bread type carbs.
He felt he had "covered his micros". Without any leafy greens as far back as I went, and without much *real* variety, I don't see how. Perhaps he felt the protein powder did it, but as we know supplements don't quite affect our bodies as food does.
I don't disagree that calorie counting works. It does. It's not the approach I used, but it certainly can work.
I also believe many people who count calories also consider whether their diets are varied and nutrient dense.
But,I also think some folks believe that if they meet their macros, their micros are also fine. That their micros will take care of themselves. And THAT is not automatically the case. It wasn't for the young man whose diary I looked at. And he's very confident that he covers both macros/micros.
I actually sounds like he's NOT hitting his goals, if he is indeed following IIFYM. And it isn't so much a flaw of IIFYM, but of food preferences that don't include an important food group. IIFYM has fiber goals (nearly impossible w/out veggies--unless he's eating fiber fortified cereals or taking a supp). I can't imagine that he's hitting fiber anywhere close to 30-35g (I *think* that is minimums for adult males).
This is a good example of misunderstanding the concept of flexible dieting. Every food plan/strategy should include veggies--that's the one thing I think we all agree is necessary to eat a variety of and in substantial quantity. If one isn't eating veggies--they're doing it wrong (excepting the rare allergy, of course), no matter what "food philosophy".
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OK, I'll ask the question. What exactly is IIFYM?
Most people describe it as eating what you want as long as it keeps you within your daily calorie intake and meets your macro goals. We generally assume/imply that macro goals are at least somewhat reasonable, right?
But then some people take it 1 step further and say that no one is suggesting an IIFYMer make up their diet of all "crap" food. But when you start talking about "crap" food, isn't that just different degrees of clean eating?
Here is a very typical day for me. Certainly not every day, but it's kind of my go-to day. Nothing that is traditionally though of as "clean" but it's all pre-packaged, boxed, prepared, etc. which seems to fall under the "no one is suggesting an IIFYMer make up their entire diet of crap food" idea.
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OK, I'll ask the question. What exactly is IIFYM?
Most people describe it as eating what you want as long as it keeps you within your daily calorie intake and meets your macro goals. We generally assume/imply that macro goals are at least somewhat reasonable, right?
But then some people take it 1 step further and say that no one is suggesting an IIFYMer make up their diet of all "crap" food. But when you start talking about "crap" food, isn't that just different degrees of clean eating?
Here is a very typical day for me. Certainly not every day, but it's kind of my go-to day. Nothing that is traditionally though of as "clean" but it's all pre-packaged, boxed, prepared, etc. which seems to fall under the "no one is suggesting an IIFYMer make up their entire diet of crap food" idea.
You typically eat no fruits and vegetables? No whole grains? Out of curiosity, how much fiber do you get a day? You surely poop because you're taking a ton of magnesium, but how much actual fiber do you get?0 -
Several different kinds of colorful vegetables EVERY DAY, in fact.williams969 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »@Sabine_Stroehm - I track what I can when it comes to micronutrients..Tracking 5 is better than none. And eating micro nutrient rich foods like fish, fruits, fibers, and veggies, etc. will cover the majority of them. That said, iifym is a tracking system that emphasizes the importance of CICO above anything else. Often times "clean eaters" have a misconception with regard to caloric needs and ideal amounts of macros. Bro dieting for example, is often a bit of rice, veggies and chicken... where's the fat? How about the carbs to protein ratio? Why cant i have a bag of chips? Where's the science? More times than not, these questions are left unanswered. And if they are mentioned, it's indirect, almost as if the dieter is supposed to know, like the science is just "common sense". From my experience with most of these meal plans, you're just given a list of what to eat, with no regard to how much... I don't buy not tracking it. I can handle the idea of eating wholesome foods, though.
It does emphasize calories. I'm not disagreeing.
I asked the question simply because someone just the other day said "if I've covered my macros and micros then why not have a treat" ("sure", is my answer). He had an open diary. I went back five to seven days and the *only* plant foods I saw were one potato, and a couple of plums. Otherwise it was pretty much meat, dairy, jiffy peanut butter, protein powder and bread type carbs.
He felt he had "covered his micros". Without any leafy greens as far back as I went, and without much *real* variety, I don't see how. Perhaps he felt the protein powder did it, but as we know supplements don't quite affect our bodies as food does.
I don't disagree that calorie counting works. It does. It's not the approach I used, but it certainly can work.
I also believe many people who count calories also consider whether their diets are varied and nutrient dense.
But,I also think some folks believe that if they meet their macros, their micros are also fine. That their micros will take care of themselves. And THAT is not automatically the case. It wasn't for the young man whose diary I looked at. And he's very confident that he covers both macros/micros.
I actually sounds like he's NOT hitting his goals, if he is indeed following IIFYM. And it isn't so much a flaw of IIFYM, but of food preferences that don't include an important food group. IIFYM has fiber goals (nearly impossible w/out veggies--unless he's eating fiber fortified cereals or taking a supp). I can't imagine that he's hitting fiber anywhere close to 30-35g (I *think* that is minimums for adult males).
This is a good example of misunderstanding the concept of flexible dieting. Every food plan/strategy should include veggies--that's the one thing I think we all agree is necessary to eat a variety of and in substantial quantity. If one isn't eating veggies--they're doing it wrong (excepting the rare allergy, of course), no matter what "food philosophy".
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Nope. None of that stuff. A few veggies here and there when they are in chili or something like that, but no leafy stuff. Rarely any fruit... apples occasionally when they are in season locally, and a banana periodically. No, no whole grains, either. Dunno about fiber, never tracked it.0
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HotPotato22 wrote: »I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
That's the extreme of IIFYM though. IDK who would recommend putting Taco Bell in their system everyday for lunch... I certainly wouldn't. Veggies and fruits are essential in any diet, IMO. Most people who get good results will adhere to consuming a good amount of those nutrients. We can agree there!
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Nope. None of that stuff. A few veggies here and there when they are in chili or something like that, but no leafy stuff. Rarely any fruit... apples occasionally when they are in season locally, and a banana periodically. No, no whole grains, either. Dunno about fiber, never tracked it.
Ouch. Well, thanks for being honest!0 -
sjohnson__1 wrote: »HotPotato22 wrote: »I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
That's the extreme of IIFYM though. IDK who would recommend putting Taco Bell in their system everyday for lunch... I certainly wouldn't. Veggies and fruits are essential in any diet, IMO. Most people who get good results will adhere to consuming a good amount of those nutrients. We can agree there!
They are essential, but as we see, not everyone, not even on this thread, eats them. I know folks think I harp on vegetables, and perhaps I do. But I do wonder about folks' actual health.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »HotPotato22 wrote: »I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
That's the extreme of IIFYM though. IDK who would recommend putting Taco Bell in their system everyday for lunch... I certainly wouldn't. Veggies and fruits are essential in any diet, IMO. Most people who get good results will adhere to consuming a good amount of those nutrients. We can agree there!
They are essential, but as we see, not everyone, not even on this thread, eats them. I know folks think I harp on vegetables, and perhaps I do. But I do wonder about folks' actual health.
Health is something not all flexible dieters are concerned about. The cool thing about flexible dieting, though, is that you don't necessarily have to follow what everyone else suggests depending on your specific goals. It's proven time and time again that if you hit your macro nutrients and calorie goals, your body composition will follow suit. Micronutrients play a large role in the speed and efficiency of the process though, and IS commonly left out of the discussion. So, I'm glad you brought that point to the forefront. Kudos! However, going back to just the basics of macros and calories is why it's called flexible dieting... bc you CAN achieve good physique and ultimately put whatever you want in your body to fit your needs/wants/desires, as long as you're hitting the basics.0 -
sjohnson__1 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »HotPotato22 wrote: »I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
That's the extreme of IIFYM though. IDK who would recommend putting Taco Bell in their system everyday for lunch... I certainly wouldn't. Veggies and fruits are essential in any diet, IMO. Most people who get good results will adhere to consuming a good amount of those nutrients. We can agree there!
They are essential, but as we see, not everyone, not even on this thread, eats them. I know folks think I harp on vegetables, and perhaps I do. But I do wonder about folks' actual health.
Health is something not all flexible dieters are concerned about. The cool thing about flexible dieting, though, is that you don't necessarily have to follow what everyone else suggests depending on your specific goals. It's proven time and time again that if you hit your macro nutrients and calorie goals, your body composition will follow suit. Micronutrients play a large role in the speed and efficiency of the process though, and IS commonly left out of the discussion. So, I'm glad you brought that point to the forefront. Kudos! However, going back to just the basics of macros and calories is why it's called flexible dieting... bc you CAN achieve good physique and ultimately put whatever you want in your body to fit your needs/wants/desires, as long as you're hitting the basics.
I'd never heard that detail. Thanks.0 -
I am definitely a IIFYMer....IMO it is the best way to really alter your lifestyle. Right now I want to lose weight, but I want it to be sustainable and give me a healthy lifestyle I can follow through the rest of my life...flex dieting does that for me. I stick to my macros and calories daily (or at least try to) and eat plenty of fruits and veggies, but don't worry about what is processed and what isn't. Four years ago I practiced restrictive dieting, and as much weight as I lost, I couldn't use it as my lifestyle so I gained it all back. IIFYM allows me to lose the weight I want, while still eating the junk that I enjoy from time to time (a life without Taco Bell and poptarts is just not worth living lol). I want to enjoy life while losing weight, not obsessing over everything on my plate...while more restrictive diets work for some people, they just don't work for me.0
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Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »HotPotato22 wrote: »I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
That's the extreme of IIFYM though. IDK who would recommend putting Taco Bell in their system everyday for lunch... I certainly wouldn't. Veggies and fruits are essential in any diet, IMO. Most people who get good results will adhere to consuming a good amount of those nutrients. We can agree there!
They are essential, but as we see, not everyone, not even on this thread, eats them. I know folks think I harp on vegetables, and perhaps I do. But I do wonder about folks' actual health.
The way people tend to talk about fruits and veggies makes it sound like you're supposed to eat like a pound of salad every day and multiple fruits but that's just my impression.0 -
fattofit_fritch26 wrote: »I am definitely a IIFYMer....IMO it is the best way to really alter your lifestyle. Right now I want to lose weight, but I want it to be sustainable and give me a healthy lifestyle I can follow through the rest of my life...flex dieting does that for me. I stick to my macros and calories daily (or at least try to) and eat plenty of fruits and veggies, but don't worry about what is processed and what isn't. Four years ago I practiced restrictive dieting, and as much weight as I lost, I couldn't use it as my lifestyle so I gained it all back. IIFYM allows me to lose the weight I want, while still eating the junk that I enjoy from time to time (a life without Taco Bell and poptarts is just not worth living lol). I want to enjoy life while losing weight, not obsessing over everything on my plate...while more restrictive diets work for some people, they just don't work for me.
This is IIFYM in a nutshell. Don't jump to the extreme right away.0 -
Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »
They are essential, but as we see, not everyone, not even on this thread, eats them. I know folks think I harp on vegetables, and perhaps I do. But I do wonder about folks' actual health.
Yes, and veggie variety is something I am constantly working on to improve. I still have to "hide" things like spinach, kale, and beets in my smoothies, chili, and soups/stews. But dang it, I'm going to achieve my goal of eating EVERY vegetable type I discover, and expand my daily "color palette."0 -
Back to work, guys. Have a great day! I'll check in tonight... keep the discussion going!0
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sjohnson__1 wrote: »HotPotato22 wrote: »I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
That's the extreme of IIFYM though. IDK who would recommend putting Taco Bell in their system everyday for lunch... I certainly wouldn't. Veggies and fruits are essential in any diet, IMO. Most people who get good results will adhere to consuming a good amount of those nutrients. We can agree there!
+1
That's the thing--I don't want to get in the argument about what IIFYM requires, since I'm not convinced IIFYM means anything specific any more than "clean" eating does--but I find it annoying that people assume that one is either "clean" (whatever that is supposed to mean) or cares nothing about health/nutrition and recommends Taco Bell every day.
I think in terms of a diet that promotes health, not specific foods out of context, and I think one's goals matter to what the best diet is for you and that individual differ as to how foods affect them, so I find the idea that there's One True Diet that we all should follow (the "clean" philosophy) to be irritating. But that does not at all mean that I don't care about health or eat worse (as I define it) than someone who claims to be "clean." Thus, the whole "clean" mantle seems to me about claiming superiority and nothing real, and statements about "oh, I don't think we should eat every meal at Taco Bell like those other people (straw though they may be)" seems to me to be a refusal to address the real disagreement.0 -
sjohnson__1 wrote: »I have more energy, less bloat, less hunger, and far better blood sugar levels by eating foods with the least possible processing and additives. By processing, I do not mean cleaning and bagging lol. I mean refining things out and adding other things in. Such as I would eat a baked potato, not potato chips.
My deepest sympathies.
I agree. More energy, less bloat, less hunger and stable blood sugar sounds horrible.
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sjohnson__1 wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »sjohnson__1 wrote: »HotPotato22 wrote: »I work really hard at "clean" eating. For me, that's separate from losing weight. I turned 40 this year, and I'm only 16 years younger than when my mother died. I don't want to lose weight by eating sugary snacks, cereals, treats and processed foods. What good is being thin if you're riddled with mood disorders, imbalances, and disease? I love knowing that I'm nourishing my body and giving it what it needs. My personal choice is to ensure that everything I consume gives me good nourishment in some way. I'm not perfect by any means, but eating whole foods is super important to me. It might not be that important to someone else -- to someone else, it might be all about the weight loss. But for me, it's so much more than that. It's becoming healthy in every sense of the word.
I agree with you, just because you CAN lose weight eating taco bell every day for lunch doesn't mean you should. I put as many fruits, vegetables, and whole foods in my body as possible because it is what is best for my body and mind, not just my weight.
That's the extreme of IIFYM though. IDK who would recommend putting Taco Bell in their system everyday for lunch... I certainly wouldn't. Veggies and fruits are essential in any diet, IMO. Most people who get good results will adhere to consuming a good amount of those nutrients. We can agree there!
They are essential, but as we see, not everyone, not even on this thread, eats them. I know folks think I harp on vegetables, and perhaps I do. But I do wonder about folks' actual health.
Health is something not all flexible dieters are concerned about. The cool thing about flexible dieting, though, is that you don't necessarily have to follow what everyone else suggests depending on your specific goals. It's proven time and time again that if you hit your macro nutrients and calorie goals, your body composition will follow suit. Micronutrients play a large role in the speed and efficiency of the process though, and IS commonly left out of the discussion. So, I'm glad you brought that point to the forefront. Kudos! However, going back to just the basics of macros and calories is why it's called flexible dieting... bc you CAN achieve good physique and ultimately put whatever you want in your body to fit your needs/wants/desires, as long as you're hitting the basics.
Bolded is key... IIFYM spawned on bodybuilding.com as a result of individuals disregarding or eliminating certain foods or food groups while cutting and/or prepping for a show because they were under the impression that it would impact physique to a high degree. So, from a body composition standpoint (excluding those with medical conditions) and holding cals/macros consistent, it will make minimal or no difference at all. One would be wise however, to get the the vast majority of their intake from micronutrient dense food sources ESPECIALLY if you are concerned with your overall health.0
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