Wal-Mart
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FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »Minimum wage is a tool to get votes. When minimum wage goes up, the companies that hire mostly minimum wage workers do two things; raise prices and cut hours to maintain their margins. That, in turn, reduces the quality (if you can call it that) of service, and makes those of us who have worked hard to get where we are pay more without a comparable bump in our non-minimum wage jobs.
People who work minimum wage jobs don't work hard?
They did not work hard to get where they are. Difficulty of work performed does not equate to value of work performed. Digging a ditch with a shovel would be difficult work, but it isn't valuable. Because any healthy idiot can operate a shovel. As such, the supply of labor is astronomical. And via supply and demand, the value of labor is very low.
Not valuable? The world couldn't go on without minimum wage workers.
No, not valuable. Supply and demand. One worker disappears, there are plenty more that can jump right in and do the job. As such, the individual minimum wage worker is not valuable.
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djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »There shouldn't. I believe a person should be allowed to enter into any agreement he/she so chooses without government interference. That includes an agreement to barter his/her time with someone in exchange for whatever pay they agree upon. If you don't like what you can earn from someone, don't work for them. If you are unable to command more money, make yourself more valuable.
Funny how I do not have any law dictating that I get paid as much as I do. I made my time valuable, and my employer pays me as such.
I think you're dismissing minimum wage without realizing the effect it has on your own salary. I also think you vastly underestimate how difficult it can be to "make yourself more valuable" depending on your starting point.
I think if you had any clue what I do or how much I make, you would understand that minimum wage does nothing to boost my salary. And you vastly OVER estimate how difficult it can be to better yourself. It is all in the choices you make in life. And your choices are yours to live with. To some have it easier than others? Yes. But just as some who have an easy path to a better life chose to stagnate in low paying jobs, some who have a very difficult path to bettering themselves do so and become very successful. While the road may not be of equal difficulty for all, it IS possible for all. And at the end, you are responsible for the choices you make.
Minimum wage provides a starting point for the economy that affects pretty much all wages. Congrats if you're in the tiny minority to which that doesn't apply. I think it's a testament to how difficult it actually is to raise yourself up that the success stories are considered anomolies.
As for the bolded part, I would completely agree, but many times the forces holding someone in a dead-end, minimum wage job are being held responsible for the choices others have made, and I think your viewpoint makes it too easy to dismiss that.
Success stories are not considered anomalies. Getting a worthwhile degree, or going to trade school and learning a trade, are not rare anomalies. And they are both paths to a decent life which are available to anyone. No, you may not earn a six figure salary. But that is also not a requirement to having a good life.
And you refer to forces holding someone in a dead end minimum wage job. Whose choices put them in that job in the first place? A persons situation in life is the sum total of the choices they make. Yes, their life may be impacted by others choices. But by and large, it was their choices that put them into a position to be impacted.
What you're talking about...going to college, going to trade school, improving their station in life...those are considered anomolous success stories in many communities.
Sorry, man. I'm a dirty liberal. I'd rather figure out a way to help someone overcome past mistakes so the entire society benefits than condemn them for the rest of their lives so that they become a social anchor.0 -
And did you know that Walmart deliberately keeps their wages low thus forcing the government to pay for health insurance and other safety net programs for its employees? They have even done food drives for their OWN employees. They also treat their employees like crap...read the book "Nickled and Dimed" I personally will not shop at Walmart.
Not everyone is meant for college or the corporate world...we need people to work the service industry job in order to function as a society. I hate when people look down on those who work at places like Walmart! They are human beings too that deserve respect. They are doing the best they can with what they have. You don't know their life circumstances. (these statements were not directed at anyone inparticular...just frustrated with the ignorance I deal with on a daily basis.)0 -
djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »Minimum wage is a tool to get votes. When minimum wage goes up, the companies that hire mostly minimum wage workers do two things; raise prices and cut hours to maintain their margins. That, in turn, reduces the quality (if you can call it that) of service, and makes those of us who have worked hard to get where we are pay more without a comparable bump in our non-minimum wage jobs.
People who work minimum wage jobs don't work hard?
They did not work hard to get where they are. Difficulty of work performed does not equate to value of work performed. Digging a ditch with a shovel would be difficult work, but it isn't valuable. Because any healthy idiot can operate a shovel. As such, the supply of labor is astronomical. And via supply and demand, the value of labor is very low.
Not valuable? The world couldn't go on without minimum wage workers.
No, not valuable. Supply and demand. One worker disappears, there are plenty more that can jump right in and do the job. As such, the individual minimum wage worker is not valuable.
Truth.0 -
^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.0
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ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
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djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »Minimum wage is a tool to get votes. When minimum wage goes up, the companies that hire mostly minimum wage workers do two things; raise prices and cut hours to maintain their margins. That, in turn, reduces the quality (if you can call it that) of service, and makes those of us who have worked hard to get where we are pay more without a comparable bump in our non-minimum wage jobs.
People who work minimum wage jobs don't work hard?
They did not work hard to get where they are. Difficulty of work performed does not equate to value of work performed. Digging a ditch with a shovel would be difficult work, but it isn't valuable. Because any healthy idiot can operate a shovel. As such, the supply of labor is astronomical. And via supply and demand, the value of labor is very low.
Not valuable? The world couldn't go on without minimum wage workers.
No, not valuable. Supply and demand. One worker disappears, there are plenty more that can jump right in and do the job. As such, the individual minimum wage worker is not valuable.
Get off your high horse.
Teachers are necessary. Doctors are necessary. Just like cashiers are.
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djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »Minimum wage is a tool to get votes. When minimum wage goes up, the companies that hire mostly minimum wage workers do two things; raise prices and cut hours to maintain their margins. That, in turn, reduces the quality (if you can call it that) of service, and makes those of us who have worked hard to get where we are pay more without a comparable bump in our non-minimum wage jobs.
People who work minimum wage jobs don't work hard?
They did not work hard to get where they are. Difficulty of work performed does not equate to value of work performed. Digging a ditch with a shovel would be difficult work, but it isn't valuable. Because any healthy idiot can operate a shovel. As such, the supply of labor is astronomical. And via supply and demand, the value of labor is very low.
Not valuable? The world couldn't go on without minimum wage workers.
No, not valuable. Supply and demand. One worker disappears, there are plenty more that can jump right in and do the job. As such, the individual minimum wage worker is not valuable.
Get off your high horse.
Teachers are necessary. Doctors are necessary. Just like cashiers are.
Get your head out of your butt. Necessary does not equate to value of time for services performed.
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tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
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If this is turning into an obamacare discussion, I'm out. Cause I will just piss everyone off.0
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djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual.
As someone who worked in a hospital, no emergency room can deny a patient medical attention. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.0 -
FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual.
As someone who worked in a hospital, no emergency room can deny a patient medical attention. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
I never claimed they could. But they aren't doing it for free. The cost may not be paid by the patient, but it is paid. And that does not make it an individual right.
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I don't have anything personally against Wal-Mart. I don't go there because of the public I have to encounter there.
Maybe the Wal-Mart on the nice side of town but the other 2 Wal-marts we have ARE the bad side of town.
I worked there when I was 18 and hated it. My brother works there now and loves it. And he certainly makes enough to get by without welfare.0 -
djeffreys10 wrote: »I find it amusing that so many people think someones deserves to be paid more, just because. If you want to earn more money, do something to make yourself more valuable. Nobody deserves to be paid a certain amount just because they posses the skill of converting oxygen to carbon dioxide.
do you kick the homeless or just spit on them?
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djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
Specifically for patients in need of care, there are, in fact, laws that say they cannot be turned away. Those people then get billed, can't pay, and we end up picking up the cost anyway. If only there was a law that mandated people get paid enough money so that if they get sick, they can afford to take care of themselves (or at least afford the insurance to do so)...0 -
KrysKiss87 wrote: »
As much as I hear what you're saying.. I kind of have to disagree. The fight for $15 in San Francisco and surrounding areas made sense to me.. Maybe because I live in the Monterey bay and the cost of living is OUTRAGEOUS. You HAVE to make $15/hr to be able to afford even a 2 bedroom apartment here. My husband makes salary, so it doesn't hit me directly- but I still understand the need. I pay $2600 a month rent for a 2.5 (office size room is the .5) bedroom house- and an apartment this size easily costs $1800. Trying to provide for yourself, let alone a family @ $8-$9/hour is impossible.
I've never understood the whole "but the cost of living is so high, pay me a ton more" thing. Yeah, OK, pay will be higher/lower in some areas but if you truly can't afford to live someplace then adapt and move to another location. A two bedroom apartment is under $800 a month here depending on how snotty of an area you want to live in. $1800 a month could buy a pretty big house here, and $2600 gets you into McMansion territory. "But I love it here so much." So pay to love it. Free country. I've known plenty of people from Cali. They swear up and down how amazing it was. Best place on Earth. So great. Can't beat it. Ask them why they moved. "Oh well I couldn't afford it there." Soooooo was it really THAT great if you were always broke?
I wasn't implying I had a problem with the cost of living, I was saying I "understood" the fight for $15 argument. But, alright. I like my smallish house, I like my beaches, and I chose to not spend more that $2600 so that I can save to own a home IN California.0 -
djeffreys10 wrote: »I find it amusing that so many people think someones deserves to be paid more, just because. If you want to earn more money, do something to make yourself more valuable. Nobody deserves to be paid a certain amount just because they posses the skill of converting oxygen to carbon dioxide.
Amen.
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djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual.
As someone who worked in a hospital, no emergency room can deny a patient medical attention. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
I never claimed they could. But they aren't doing it for free. The cost may not be paid by the patient, but it is paid. And that does not make it an individual right.
Sorry, that wasn't what your initial post said. You just said that people weren't obligated to provide a service.0 -
djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
You don't know anyone's life story. You don't know the life choices made by a person who works at Walmart. You don't know why they are working at Walmart. They could've been a successful business man who was laid off but still had a family to support so he took what he could find. I suggest a little less judging and a little more compassion.
You seem to think you are better than everyone else. THAT attitude is not valuable in any workplace.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
Specifically for patients in need of care, there are, in fact, laws that say they cannot be turned away. Those people then get billed, can't pay, and we end up picking up the cost anyway. If only there was a law that mandated people get paid enough money so that if they get sick, they can afford to take care of themselves (or at least afford the insurance to do so)...
With the exception of your last sentence, you repeated my post and worded it differently. I never said those laws do not exist. I said nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. And no law changes that. Laws often violate rights, but they do not change them. And your solution is to further violate the rights of anyone who chooses to own a business. No violation of rights is acceptable.
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djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
You do know that the someone who makes about $50,000 a year pays about $35 TOTAL to the SNAP program (food stamps) and $6 to all other safety net programs? You're telling me that you can't find it in your heart to not complain about putting less than $45 towards helping those less fortunate than you?
Here's where the real "welfare" is...continuing with the same imaginary person as above who makes $50,000 a year....they pay $870 for corporate subsidies, $1600 to offset corporate tax loopholes, and $1231 to offset losses from corporate overseas tax havens. That's disgusting! (source for this info is the Tax Foundation and Citizens for Tax Justice)0 -
djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
Specifically for patients in need of care, there are, in fact, laws that say they cannot be turned away. Those people then get billed, can't pay, and we end up picking up the cost anyway. If only there was a law that mandated people get paid enough money so that if they get sick, they can afford to take care of themselves (or at least afford the insurance to do so)...
With the exception of your last sentence, you repeated my post and worded it differently. And to avoid that, your solution is to further violate the rights of anyone who chooses to own a business. No violation of rights is acceptable.
My family physicians office has now gone concierge because of Obamacare. I have to pay $3800/year just to be seen there. I can't IMAGINE what another law would do to the cost.0 -
tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual.
As someone who worked in a hospital, no emergency room can deny a patient medical attention. You clearly have no clue what you are talking about.
I never claimed they could. But they aren't doing it for free. The cost may not be paid by the patient, but it is paid. And that does not make it an individual right.
Sorry, that wasn't what your initial post said. You just said that people weren't obligated to provide a service.
The way I originally said it came out wrong. I wasn't saying the weren't required by law to provide service. I was saying that, regardless of the law, nobody has a right to anyones time or services.
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djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
Specifically for patients in need of care, there are, in fact, laws that say they cannot be turned away. Those people then get billed, can't pay, and we end up picking up the cost anyway. If only there was a law that mandated people get paid enough money so that if they get sick, they can afford to take care of themselves (or at least afford the insurance to do so)...
With the exception of your last sentence, you repeated my post and worded it differently. And to avoid that, your solution is to further violate the rights of anyone who chooses to own a business. No violation of rights is acceptable.
Sorry, couldn't keep up with your edits.0 -
kamakazeekim wrote: »And did you know that Walmart deliberately keeps their wages low thus forcing the government to pay for health insurance and other safety net programs for its employees? They have even done food drives for their OWN employees. They also treat their employees like crap...read the book "Nickled and Dimed" I personally will not shop at Walmart.
Not everyone is meant for college or the corporate world...we need people to work the service industry job in order to function as a society. I hate when people look down on those who work at places like Walmart! They are human beings too that deserve respect. They are doing the best they can with what they have. You don't know their life circumstances. (these statements were not directed at anyone inparticular...just frustrated with the ignorance I deal with on a daily basis.)
I heard this too from a person who worked there, hummmm
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FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
You don't know anyone's life story. You don't know the life choices made by a person who works at Walmart. You don't know why they are working at Walmart. They could've been a successful business man who was laid off but still had a family to support so he took what he could find. I suggest a little less judging and a little more compassion.
You seem to think you are better than everyone else. THAT attitude is not valuable in any workplace.
But I do know that life is a summation of the choices made. And it is your responsibility to live with your choices. Furthermore, it is not the fault of any future employer that a businessman got laid off and has a family to support. Not even Wal-Mart. And it has no impact on what he should be paid.
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djeffreys10 wrote: »FatFreeFrolicking wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »djeffreys10 wrote: »ForStMicheal wrote: »^^ maybe under the new affordable care act, but in the past those people would have made to much to qualify for Medicaid and would basically be screwed out of health insurance.
Nobody has a right to the services of anyone else. Those services must be purchased. Doctors are not an exception to that rule.
Except they are. Maybe not at an individual practice, but a patient in need of care cannot be turned away from a hospital.
Except they aren't. You act as if there are no laws that violates the rights of an individual. The doctor is still paid for his/her time. It is those of us who made better choices in life left to unfairly foot the bill of those who did not.
You don't know anyone's life story. You don't know the life choices made by a person who works at Walmart. You don't know why they are working at Walmart. They could've been a successful business man who was laid off but still had a family to support so he took what he could find. I suggest a little less judging and a little more compassion.
You seem to think you are better than everyone else. THAT attitude is not valuable in any workplace.
But I do know that life is a summation of the choices made. And it is your responsibility to live with your choices. Furthermore, it is not the fault of any future employer that a businessman got laid off and has a family to support. Not even Wal-Mart. And it has no impact on what he should be paid.
Except you are assuming they made poor choices that led them to a minimum wage job. That's not always the case.0 -
DebbieLyn63 wrote: »mojohowitz wrote: »DebbieLyn63 wrote: »Why is that disgusting? Walmart is a large corporation, providing respectable income for many people. Would you rather they be sitting on their couch drawing welfare?
I'd hesitate to call $9.38 respectable in most markets.
By respectable, I meant it is an honest living, as opposed to drug dealing or prostitution. Which certainly pay a lot more, but carry a much higher risk of death or imprisonment. And not usually safe for 'take your kid to work day'.
Wait, wait, wait... are you telling me that people that don't have a lot of education and usually in a low income situation are limited to Walmart, prostitution, or becoming a drug dealer?
For one, I believe that people should be given the opportunity to earning an actual living wage, the minimum wage wasn't created so that people would also have to obtain welfare, it was created to let people earn a living that would allow them to be self-sufficient.
Somehow paying people enough to live on morphed into a concept of someone "deserving" more money. Which is kind of awful.0
This discussion has been closed.
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