How do you know when it's time for first bulk?
galgenstrick
Posts: 2,086 Member
How can you tell when you're at the right body fat % for a first time bulk?
Calipers say I'm at 12%, the bioimpedence scale says I'm at 16%, and in the mirror and comparing with the online pictures I look closer to the 15% category. I don't have very much muscle, so maybe it's hard to tell from the online pictures which show more athletic men in the under 20% categories.
Any insight from people that went from overweight into their first bulk?
Calipers say I'm at 12%, the bioimpedence scale says I'm at 16%, and in the mirror and comparing with the online pictures I look closer to the 15% category. I don't have very much muscle, so maybe it's hard to tell from the online pictures which show more athletic men in the under 20% categories.
Any insight from people that went from overweight into their first bulk?
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You just know =D
I'm not sure of the percentages for guys, post some pics and you should get some decent feedback.
edit: MFP only wanted to post half my answer
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When you want to start getting big again and push your strength to new levels. Really it depends on the person and their goals but a lot of people like to get at least to the 10-12% mark before starting. I hit around 8% and am still under 10% but it's all a personal issue.0
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »When you want to start getting big again and push your strength to new levels. Really it depends on the person and their goals but a lot of people like to get at least to the 10-12% mark before starting. I hit around 8% and am still under 10% but it's all a personal issue.
Thanks, I guess my question is, how do you know when you're at the 10-12% range when you don't really have any muscle and are getting a lot of different readings from calipers / scale / pics.
Edit: I should clarify that I want to bulk for both strength and appearance.0 -
not really about percentages. there comes a time when you know if you have enough muscle to keep cutting. If you don't have much muscle as you say. then bulk forget about the percentages for now.
I was 185, overweight, got down to 151. wanted to go to 145 but my RD said you need to bulk. I'm back up to 162 and will probably bulk for another 5 weeks min. I would love to cut right now for the summer but it is not in the cards. Do what is best for you and forget about the beach, at least this year0 -
When in doubt, bulk......
If your modest with your surplus 250 cals you're not going to balloon up. The nice thing about bulking is you can always dial back the calories if needed.
I was once in your shoes and I thought I needed to "cut" down to a certain percentage. In reality I was wasting time and should have been at least at TDEE and focusing on building strength and muscle.
Many people will say on here just cut to "x BF%" to be ripped or see your abs.....well If you don’t have the muscle underneath you won’t have anything to show....... I'm still working on my core and chest as they are my least aesthetic features.
My calipers say 12.5% but I don't get caught up on what my "true" BF % is. It's simply a number for me to use as a guide during my bulk. My plan is to bulk until my calipers say 16-17% BF and do the "Mirror" test.
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START LIFTING and BULK BABY BULK!!!0
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galgenstrick wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »When you want to start getting big again and push your strength to new levels. Really it depends on the person and their goals but a lot of people like to get at least to the 10-12% mark before starting. I hit around 8% and am still under 10% but it's all a personal issue.
Thanks, I guess my question is, how do you know when you're at the 10-12% range when you don't really have any muscle and are getting a lot of different readings from calipers / scale / pics.
Edit: I should clarify that I want to bulk for both strength and appearance.
When you can start to see your middle and top abs clearly and start to see your lower abs but not very clearly you will likely be in that range.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »When you want to start getting big again and push your strength to new levels. Really it depends on the person and their goals but a lot of people like to get at least to the 10-12% mark before starting. I hit around 8% and am still under 10% but it's all a personal issue.
Thanks, I guess my question is, how do you know when you're at the 10-12% range when you don't really have any muscle and are getting a lot of different readings from calipers / scale / pics.
Edit: I should clarify that I want to bulk for both strength and appearance.
When you can start to see your middle and top abs clearly and start to see your lower abs but not very clearly you will likely be in that range.
Thanks, if I stretch my belly skin, then I can see them. Otherwise not so much.0 -
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Lifting program is Stronglifts 5x5 for the past 3 months, didn't lift before that
I'm eating ~1800 calories on average every day and losing weight pretty steadily at 1.5lbs / week
Macros are 35% Carbs, 40% protein, 25% fat. I feel pretty good with these numbers, plenty of energy and satiety.
I started at 192 pounds and am down to 162. So about 30 pounds lost
My current plan was to cut down to about 155, then slowly ramp calories to bulk, and start "Bigger, Leaner, Stronger" It seems like a good program which focus on strength with compound lifts as well as aesthetics.
I'm also well aware that the body I want is going to take about 3 years or maybe longer, and I'm not going to look great this summer, but probably next summer
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based on the pics...bulk bulk bulk0
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Oh, I'm also aware that If I cut a little more I'm still not going to look good until I put on some muscle haha, but I don't mind too much because I'm still looking a lot better than I did when I started. That's why my plan was to cut a little more down to 155.0
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galgenstrick wrote: »
As far as how do you know when you're in the lower teen range without a dunk test or scan, I feel visual estimates are best. Calipers and bio-impedance readers have so many flaws that if you are looking to hit somewhere from 10-12% and it's reading improperly then you are planning your goals on faulty information.
In your case I am going to have to say that the bio impedance reader is actually kind of accurate. The biggest issue as you've stated is lack of lbm. If you continue to lose more weight you will look thinner but it won't be so much of an improvement. What is your lifting program like?
How long have you been lifting?
What's you intake as far as calories and macros?
How much weight have you lost?
I know I don't have the responses yet but I'm going to tell you what advice I'm inclined to give because I think I already know the answers to those questions. As one poster above mentioned already, whatever vanity goals you might have had for this summer probably won't happen. I'm not knocking vanity because I'm very vain. Losing weight will leave you as a skinnier version of your current self and I don't think a full blown bulk is necessary right now in your case. I would honestly get the intake right around maintenance if it's slightly higher like 100 of so I think that's fine. From the looks of it you are under trained and you can make decent progress through beginner gains. I would probably take the entire summer and fall to be at maintenance and get on a proper program. Nothing will improve your appearance if your programming isn't right. The fat have now and whatever fat you accumulate in the next 2 seasons, if any, can be addressed next spring to prepare for the summer. That will leave you in a position to get ready for next summer. After that you can get on standard bulk/cut cycles to make your way to your long term goal. It's a long term so don't sabotage yourself by expecting instant results. Proper nutrition, proper training and patience.
I agree, and was thinking that you should go to maintenance over the summer months and then run a bulk staring on September first and then run that until about February 1 and re-assess where you are. Aim for .5 pound gain when you do bulk, and make sure that you take starting measurements so that you can track progress.
if you frankly don't give a damn about vanity, which to quote Al Pacino is my favorite sin LOL - then go ahead and run the bulk now and run it up until December 1 and re-assess where you are then..
Are you on a structured lifting program?0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »Lifting program is Stronglifts 5x5 for the past 3 months, didn't lift before that
I'm eating ~1800 calories on average every day and losing weight pretty steadily at 1.5lbs / week
Macros are 35% Carbs, 40% protein, 25% fat. I feel pretty good with these numbers, plenty of energy and satiety.
I started at 192 pounds and am down to 162. So about 30 pounds lost
My current plan was to cut down to about 155, then slowly ramp calories to bulk, and start "Bigger, Leaner, Stronger" It seems like a good program which focus on strength with compound lifts as well as aesthetics.
I'm also well aware that the body I want is going to take about 3 years or maybe longer, and I'm not going to look great this summer, but probably next summer
whoops, just saw this response.
that sounds like a legit plan to me....if you are losing 1.5 pounds a week maybe you could bump up to one pound per week loss so that you retain some muscle...?0 -
Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
I'm making very slow strength gains. I had to deload the squats a couple times to correct form, still getting used to doing it correctly. But the others that I have an easier time with form are increasing. The starting lifts were the recommended start for SL5x5, basically the bar on all the lifts except 65 on DL and Row.0 -
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galgenstrick wrote: »Lifting program is Stronglifts 5x5 for the past 3 months, didn't lift before that
I'm eating ~1800 calories on average every day and losing weight pretty steadily at 1.5lbs / week
Macros are 35% Carbs, 40% protein, 25% fat. I feel pretty good with these numbers, plenty of energy and satiety.
I started at 192 pounds and am down to 162. So about 30 pounds lost
My current plan was to cut down to about 155, then slowly ramp calories to bulk, and start "Bigger, Leaner, Stronger" It seems like a good program which focus on strength with compound lifts as well as aesthetics.
I'm also well aware that the body I want is going to take about 3 years or maybe longer, and I'm not going to look great this summer, but probably next summer
whoops, just saw this response.
that sounds like a legit plan to me....if you are losing 1.5 pounds a week maybe you could bump up to one pound per week loss so that you retain some muscle...?
I think that's a good idea, 1lb/week. I'll also consider the recomp over the summer suggestion. If I did a recomp for say 3 months, would I be able to drop down in BF any significant amount? Or would it not be noticeable?0 -
We can't see the legs and his back which we would need to see in order to get a clearer picture but based on what I do see I would have to say that he's at 16%. No lower than 15% for sure in my opinion.
@MrM27 I was thinking with upper ab definition and side view might put him closer to sub 15%...
but now that I look at it again closer to 15-16% is probably more accurate...
I guess we can split the difference and say 14.5...:)0 -
We can't see the legs and his back which we would need to see in order to get a clearer picture but based on what I do see I would have to say that he's at 16%. No lower than 15% for sure in my opinion.
I can get back and leg pics if you think it would help. But I also feel that you're right about the 16%, that was my gut feeling, although the calipers were telling me otherwise, even if I grabbed as much fat as possible on the skinfold
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@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......0 -
@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
From my understanding you're the most insulin sensitive at lower body fat, and this can get better gains when you start a bulk in the 10-12% range. I'd like to know too though.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
From my understanding you're the most insulin sensitive at lower body fat, and this can get better gains when you start a bulk in the 10-12% range. I'd like to know too though.
And I understand that part.....my understanding is that guideline is for individuals that have been training for a minimum of 6+ months. i.e. have some muscle mass put on. No fault of your own, you do not fall into that catergory. As per the "sticky" post on beginner bulking the body is to "efficient" building muscle even at 20% BF for noobs. You're easily at or below 13-15% BF from what I see and from what I used to look like at your same weight.
The one regret I have is spinning my wheels for a good 1-2 years following a bad program and not eating enough calories! ( Your program is GOOD! don't change it :-) )
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@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
main reason was current body fat % and vanity ...if he starts a bulk now then he is going to have fat gain which is going to impact how one looks on the beach or doing outdoor activities.
Additionally, starting a bulk at a higher body fat % will mean that you have more fat gains and more fat to cut off at the end of the bulk cycle. So it is recommended to get below 15% (usually 12%) and then run your bulk ...
since it appears that OP is probably a tad north of 15% body fat, we are suggesting to continue cutting until he drops about another three percent.
I would also add in that he could probably increase calories by 250 and lose a pound per week over next few months so the deficit and muscle loss is not as steep .
hope that helps...
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galgenstrick wrote: »@MrM27 & @ndj1979 I'm not trying to hi-jack the post, I would like to know why you're advising he stay at maintenance for that long? His goal is to gain strength and size....just like most of us. This is being asked in wanting to learn your guys' thought process. Thanks.
IMO - OP should stop cutting and reverse to maintenance for the next month and then go right into a bulk until years ends at 0.5lb /week gain. He's got noob gains to be had and strength to add too.......
From my understanding you're the most insulin sensitive at lower body fat, and this can get better gains when you start a bulk in the 10-12% range. I'd like to know too though.
And I understand that part.....my understanding is that guideline is for individuals that have been training for a minimum of 6+ months. i.e. have some muscle mass put on. No fault of your own, you do not fall into that catergory. As per the "sticky" post on beginner bulking the body is to "efficient" building muscle even at 20% BF for noobs. You're easily at or below 13-15% BF from what I see and from what I used to look like at your same weight.
The one regret I have is spinning my wheels for a good 1-2 years following a bad program and not eating enough calories! ( Your program is GOOD! don't change it :-) )
I don't think OP falls into the newbie category as he has been running starting strength for the past three months..he may have already hit his peak for newbie gains...but I could be wrong there.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
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http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10049766/bulking-a-complete-guide-for-beginners/p1
Are You Ready To Bulk?
"Where is this point, where you are lean enough to bulk efficiently? Lyle McDonald pegs it at 15% body fat (for males), you will find this recommendation just about everywhere (it seems that he is the original source for that recommendation). I do think that value is a bit aggressive and that there is some leeway, especially in first timers who tend to bulk very efficiently. The difference between 10-15% and 15-20% body fat is fairly small in bulking efficiency, if there is even a difference at all. (See my article on measuring body fat at home if you are unsure of your body fat percentage).
You really shouldn’t expect notable declines in bulking efficiency until you are 20-25% body fat or even higher, unless you also have a genetic predisposition to insulin resistance.
I was about 20% body fat when I started my first bulk.
(Important note: the body fat levels quoted are for males, females should add about 7% to these numbers for roughly equivalent body fat levels, 10% body fat in a male is similar to about 17% body fat in a female)."
*** Taken straight from MrM27's post in the beginners guide ***
--- As I stated above @galgenstrick , I would pick a body fat % to use as your base and go from there it's all relative. My body fat caliper says I'm 12.5% which I know isn't true but it's a great starting point for me with my bulk. I know I want to bulk until I hit 16-17% BF which will put me around 180-182lbs.
If I read correctly you're at 1800 calories a day? There is no wonder why you've had to deload squats a few times, your body is screaming for more energy...i.e. more calories!
Also, can you clear up the vanity part? My understanding was you want to add muscle for the aesthetic look? Correct?
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