How do you know when it's time for first bulk?
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galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »
Both play a factor.
Training age - I like to think of it as the "law of diminishing returns." Your body adapts and gets accustomed to the added stressors (training volume) on the body. You will need to continue to increase volume over time in order to increase muscle mass. (Progressive overload) You can manipulate volume in a multitude of ways.
Age of trainee - It's a proven fact that younger men (19-29) have much higher levels of testosterone and for some reason at age 30 it begins to decline. You can still gain muscle mass well into your 40s - 50s but your recovery time is extended and getting the volume needed maybe more of a struggle. (I can only speak for males on this as I don't have the same tools as females.....)
Those are both quick 101 answers....
I thought the decrease in T was primarily due to a decrease in muscle mass in older, untrained individuals. Or is there another component of ageing that decreases it?
it's just age, right? and I assume it varies per individual, just as the "normal" T level does.
maybe having significant muscle mass would delay the decrease...no idea though.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »
Both play a factor.
Training age - I like to think of it as the "law of diminishing returns." Your body adapts and gets accustomed to the added stressors (training volume) on the body. You will need to continue to increase volume over time in order to increase muscle mass. (Progressive overload) You can manipulate volume in a multitude of ways.
Age of trainee - It's a proven fact that younger men (19-29) have much higher levels of testosterone and for some reason at age 30 it begins to decline. You can still gain muscle mass well into your 40s - 50s but your recovery time is extended and getting the volume needed maybe more of a struggle. (I can only speak for males on this as I don't have the same tools as females.....)
Those are both quick 101 answers....
I thought the decrease in T was primarily due to a decrease in muscle mass in older, untrained individuals. Or is there another component of ageing that decreases it?
it's just age, right? and I assume it varies per individual, just as the "normal" T level does.
maybe having significant muscle mass would delay the decrease...no idea though.
My understanding of "T" is the "normal level" decreases as one ages. So what's considered normal for 18 year old isn't the same normal for a 45 yr old male.
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galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »
Both play a factor.
Training age - I like to think of it as the "law of diminishing returns." Your body adapts and gets accustomed to the added stressors (training volume) on the body. You will need to continue to increase volume over time in order to increase muscle mass. (Progressive overload) You can manipulate volume in a multitude of ways.
Age of trainee - It's a proven fact that younger men (19-29) have much higher levels of testosterone and for some reason at age 30 it begins to decline. You can still gain muscle mass well into your 40s - 50s but your recovery time is extended and getting the volume needed maybe more of a struggle. (I can only speak for males on this as I don't have the same tools as females.....)
Those are both quick 101 answers....
I thought the decrease in T was primarily due to a decrease in muscle mass in older, untrained individuals. Or is there another component of ageing that decreases it?
it's just age, right? and I assume it varies per individual, just as the "normal" T level does.
maybe having significant muscle mass would delay the decrease...no idea though.
My understanding of "T" is the "normal level" decreases as one ages. So what's considered normal for 18 year old isn't the same normal for a 45 yr old male.
but those "normal" levels are based off of average values from average men, of which most are sedentary.
I'm actually having a difficult time determining if older adults have a lower LBM because their T lowers over time, or if they have a lower T because their LBM decreases over time.0 -
Here we go. I had to go through a dozen studies to find this.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11158037
"The extent to which decline in T is the result of the aging process per se, as opposed to chronic illness, medication use, and other age-related factors, remains controversial. "
That was in 2001, if anyone has newer info on it, I would love to hear about it.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
I was thinking mass gains too.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains, based on the nested quoted comments I was replying to.
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galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.
But what if you start lifting on a cut, and don't make much in the way of size and strength gains while dropping weight over several months of lifting? Will you start making those gains once a bulk starts?0 -
LolBroScience wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.
Had I learned this earlier, I would have never stopped my 5x5 routine :-( I was also cutting anyways so no strength gains were to be had...lol.
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galgenstrick wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.
But what if you start lifting on a cut, and don't make much in the way of size and strength gains while dropping weight over several months of lifting? Will you start making those gains once a bulk starts?
YES!!!
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galgenstrick wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.
But what if you start lifting on a cut, and don't make much in the way of size and strength gains while dropping weight over several months of lifting? Will you start making those gains once a bulk starts?
From what I have seen and from personal experience with a reasonable deficit and proper training you should still be seeing a considerable amount of progress in strength as a beginner. Faster progress than pretty much any other time period.
Thanks. I'm definitely seeing some progress. A lot of it is recording myself and correcting form over adding weights. I'm just starting to get pretty confident with my form and the weights are going up.0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.
But what if you start lifting on a cut, and don't make much in the way of size and strength gains while dropping weight over several months of lifting? Will you start making those gains once a bulk starts?
From what I have seen and from personal experience with a reasonable deficit and proper training you should still be seeing a considerable amount of progress in strength as a beginner. Faster progress than pretty much any other time period.
Yup0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.
But what if you start lifting on a cut, and don't make much in the way of size and strength gains while dropping weight over several months of lifting? Will you start making those gains once a bulk starts?
From what I have seen and from personal experience with a reasonable deficit and proper training you should still be seeing a considerable amount of progress in strength as a beginner. Faster progress than pretty much any other time period.
This was my experience. I made linear gains for a long time while cutting. I hit a wall a few times, and when I could no longer progress, I switched to an intermediate program. Around the same time, I increased my calories as well. It was supposed to be a slight deficit (as opposed to my 1-2lbs per week previously), but it ended up being more around maintenance. Switching programs and increasing my intake has led to further progression.
@galgenstrick , are you not seeing any linear gains while cutting? I'm not sure if that's what you're implying, but that was how I read it. If you did not experience pretty good linear gains when first starting lifting, then it would seem maybe you started too heavy. You may benefit from a good deload and then working your way back up to see if you can break through the strength plateau.
Or maybe I completely misread your question.0 -
I started with Stronglifts 5x5 about a year ago while eating at a deficit and made some pretty decent strength gains until I started spinning my wheels and not really progressing anymore (Squats: 185 5x5 / BP: 165 5x5 / DL: 300 1x5). After getting down to a bodyweight of 195 (I'm 6'4") I decided to start bulking with around 2900 calories a day.
Now that I'm bulking, I feel like I'm making noob gains, again. I'm up to 206 lbs, and I switched to a 3x5 program. My current stats are now S: 245 3x5 / BP: 195 3x5 / DL: 330 1x5.
So to answer your question, I think noob gains stop when you stop making linear progressions regularly, which probably starts happening when you start approaching your genetic limit. Just my $0.02...0 -
galgenstrick wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »galgenstrick wrote: »Squat: 100
Bench: 120
Row: 95
OH press: 60
Deadlift: 175
Based on his lift totals he's a novice and definitely in a newbie catergory. We may have different definitions of "newbie" gains. He's got a lot of strength gains to be had even at maintenance calories.....
No way could those be the extent of his newb gains. Plenty more in the tank I'm sure
Are newbie gains determined by how long you've been training properly whether in a deficit or a surplus? or are they determined by how far away you are from your genetic potential?
can anyone comment on this?^^^
I think it's the point you can no longer progress session to session (after whatever reset strategy your program uses) and you're ready for more intermediate type programming.
It's not cut and dried.
There's probably no scientific formula for it.
One day your LP routine finds you hitting your head against a brick wall. And it's time to move on.
That exact point is probably a mixture of the lifters starting age, prior training (if any), genetics, etc. Probably how quickly some people learn skills (i.e how quickly they learn complex motor patterns) plays into it.
Wait, are you referring to newbie strength gains or newbie mass gains? I've always assumed it referred to mass gains, which will stop LONG before strength gains, whether cutting or recomping.
Strength gains as well. This is when you cannot make linear progression on the lifts anymore - 5 lbs per session, 5 lbs per week etc. You would begin to tweak certain variables, would introduce periodization, etc.
But what if you start lifting on a cut, and don't make much in the way of size and strength gains while dropping weight over several months of lifting? Will you start making those gains once a bulk starts?
From what I have seen and from personal experience with a reasonable deficit and proper training you should still be seeing a considerable amount of progress in strength as a beginner. Faster progress than pretty much any other time period.
This was my experience. I made linear gains for a long time while cutting. I hit a wall a few times, and when I could no longer progress, I switched to an intermediate program. Around the same time, I increased my calories as well. It was supposed to be a slight deficit (as opposed to my 1-2lbs per week previously), but it ended up being more around maintenance. Switching programs and increasing my intake has led to further progression.
@galgenstrick , are you not seeing any linear gains while cutting? I'm not sure if that's what you're implying, but that was how I read it. If you did not experience pretty good linear gains when first starting lifting, then it would seem maybe you started too heavy. You may benefit from a good deload and then working your way back up to see if you can break through the strength plateau.
Or maybe I completely misread your question.
I'm still progressing. I added weights to OH press and deadlift today. I'm not seeing a lot of progression in squats, but that's the one I have the hardest time getting the form right and my hip mobility sucks. I just bought some fractional plates to help with the progression because 5lbs increases is too difficult. I'm guessing that's because I'm cutting still.
I'm increasing calories as well per everyone's suggestion and that seems to be helping, although it's hard to tell this early.0
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