Revamped my idea of a good routine! Crique me please :)
MFD7576
Posts: 271 Member
Hey guys! *Waves*
I was that guy askin for help yesterday: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10182403/someone-review-my-weekly-gym-routine/p1
So I did some thinkin and I had an idea...
The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle, not do them at the same time equally.
So here my proposal, I do Couch to 5k M W F rather than Push Pull Legs. My girlfriend and I are there for about an hour so I have a half hour left over waiting for her to finish up. This is where I could throw in a couple reps on general lifting or pulling. That way I can use C25k to shed the pounds, and the weight training to quench my thirst to lifting big things and putting them down *lunk alert*
What do you guys think? Any ideas for what is moderate intensity to do while I am waiting? Is this a bad idea too? lol
I was that guy askin for help yesterday: http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10182403/someone-review-my-weekly-gym-routine/p1
So I did some thinkin and I had an idea...
The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle, not do them at the same time equally.
So here my proposal, I do Couch to 5k M W F rather than Push Pull Legs. My girlfriend and I are there for about an hour so I have a half hour left over waiting for her to finish up. This is where I could throw in a couple reps on general lifting or pulling. That way I can use C25k to shed the pounds, and the weight training to quench my thirst to lifting big things and putting them down *lunk alert*
What do you guys think? Any ideas for what is moderate intensity to do while I am waiting? Is this a bad idea too? lol
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Replies
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Depends on your nutrition. One of the biggest factors in either losing weight or building (bulking) is more in your approach to calories in than anything else. Though lifting while eating at a deficit is helpful in limiting the amount of muscle lost.
I've done Stronglifts and now NROLFW while on a deficit, lifting 3 days a week. During NROLFS, I have also made it through the couch to 5k program and now jog 3 non-llifting days a week. You can figure out your routine based on your goals. Just make sure your nutrition follows suit in order to each said goals.0 -
Well the nutrition part is kind of assumed, and I don't mean that is a snobby way. I'm doing my best to stay under goal in all categories unless of course I needs to meet or exceed. I know everyone's journey is different, I just want some advice at what challenges I might face. No one likes surprises0
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I want to begin by stating that the majority of the advice is hyperbole, or based on credible sources that I forgot to write down when i first saw them.
I'd definitely say that losing weight before building muscle is a good idea, because to build you have to have a calorie surplus. And since you can't tell your body to ONLY make muscle with the surplus you'll end up having more fat to cut in the long run.
As far as cardio, a friend of mine recently started 3-4 days a week of running on the treadmill (30 min), and he has dropped around 2% BF so far (don't know how long it's taken though). I've seen a couple places saying that low intensity cardio would be better than high intensity because you'll burn more fat than carbs, but I don't have any science to back that up, so grain of salt.
Now...weight lifting (Tim Allen grunt here)...you definitely still want to lift. There is a difference between lifting and bulking...Without going into too much anatomy you have different types of muscle fibers, some are bigger some are smaller. The smaller ones generally are better at slow endurance motions, and will help with your running, but will also not consume a lot of calories because they are trying to expand quickly.
A good rep/set range for lifting while cutting that I use is 12 reps/3 sets.
Hope this helps, and if you notice anything I said that is specifically wrong, please tell me. I'm no expert, and I can only learn if I know what I don't know.0 -
I want to begin by stating that the majority of the advice is hyperbole, or based on credible sources that I forgot to write down when i first saw them.
I'd definitely say that losing weight before building muscle is a good idea, because to build you have to have a calorie surplus. And since you can't tell your body to ONLY make muscle with the surplus you'll end up having more fat to cut in the long run.
As far as cardio, a friend of mine recently started 3-4 days a week of running on the treadmill (30 min), and he has dropped around 2% BF so far (don't know how long it's taken though). I've seen a couple places saying that low intensity cardio would be better than high intensity because you'll burn more fat than carbs, but I don't have any science to back that up, so grain of salt.
Now...weight lifting (Tim Allen grunt here)...you definitely still want to lift. There is a difference between lifting and bulking...Without going into too much anatomy you have different types of muscle fibers, some are bigger some are smaller. The smaller ones generally are better at slow endurance motions, and will help with your running, but will also not consume a lot of calories because they are trying to expand quickly.
A good rep/set range for lifting while cutting that I use is 12 reps/3 sets.
Hope this helps, and if you notice anything I said that is specifically wrong, please tell me. I'm no expert, and I can only learn if I know what I don't know.
Awesome stuff man, Ill be keeping this in mind all the way, What you say makes absolute sense, Im excited to get it all going in practice now.
More input greatly appreciated!0 -
NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »This is where I could throw in a couple reps on general lifting or pulling...and the weight training to quench my thirst to lifting big things and putting them down *lunk alert*
What do you guys think? Any ideas for what is moderate intensity to do while I am waiting? Is this a bad idea too? lol
I'll defer to the experts, but for the general lifting I would focus on the major compound lifts (Squat, Press, Row and Deadlift). Start a modified full body progressive beginner's routine. If you start light this will give you time to get your form right.
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OP if you want you can add me so you can ask any questions that arise. I'll constantly repeat I'm no expert but been doing this a while, and read a lot of studies and stuff to make sure I'm up to date. Also, exactly what loulamb said, that bloke is spot on!0
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Any last minute input? Still interested0
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Terrible idea. Strength training focus should not be religated until after losing weight. At the bare minimum, 2x week full body with compound movements. 3 would be better. Supplement with cardio as desired.0
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DawnEmbers wrote: »Depends on your nutrition. One of the biggest factors in either losing weight or building (bulking) is more in your approach to calories in than anything else. Though lifting while eating at a deficit is helpful in limiting the amount of muscle lost.
I've done Stronglifts and now NROLFW while on a deficit, lifting 3 days a week. During NROLFS, I have also made it through the couch to 5k program and now jog 3 non-llifting days a week. You can figure out your routine based on your goals. Just make sure your nutrition follows suit in order to each said goals.
Did you have any problems progressing with the programs on a deficit?
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About the only thing that I can think of that would be worse than running on a treadmill at the gym would be walking on a treadmill at the gym. Good luck with that.
C25K won't do anything to help you shed pounds. Not a damn thing. Any calories that you burn (and it won't be many) you will earn back on your couch that night or during your "reward snack". Do you know anyone training for their first marathon? Look at their belly.
That being said, as @rybo says above, 2 or 3 times a week full body compound lifts. You can squeeze that into a half hour.
At the bare bare minimum, do a set of pushups and deadlifts after your treadmill walks. If you can do 30 pushups with good form, then you should do bench presses. If you can't, be prepared to be amazed at how quickly you'll get there. Add in lat pulldowns or pullups/chin-ups, and you've basically hit every muscle. And if you can't bench 225 pounds, you have no business doing a push/pull/legs split.
Starting Strength or Stronglifts 3x/week would be a great alternative to C25K, but they would take-up all of your allotted gym time.
Happy Hunting!0 -
kozykondition1 wrote: »About the only thing that I can think of that would be worse than running on a treadmill at the gym would be walking on a treadmill at the gym. Good luck with that.
C25K won't do anything to help you shed pounds. Not a damn thing. Any calories that you burn (and it won't be many) you will earn back on your couch that night or during your "reward snack". Do you know anyone training for their first marathon? Look at their belly.
Happy Hunting!
Where exactly did he say he was going to eat a reward snack on the couch?0 -
The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle
Awful idea frankly.
The main benefit of strength/weight training in a deficit is to preserve your existing muscle mass. Far easier to maintain what you have than risk losing it and have to rebuild.
As a young male you are well placed to at least maintain your muscle mass - if your training is good, deficit is low (slow rate of weight loss), adequate protein and you haven't many training years under your belt there's a reasonable chance of adding muscle.
Assuming you are new to weights I would recommend 3 x week, full body, focussed on the main compound lifts. (Plenty of well known programs about.)
Cardio to taste and to progress towards your fitness goals NOT to create an excessive deficit. Fuel your exercise.0 -
kozykondition1 wrote: »About the only thing that I can think of that would be worse than running on a treadmill at the gym would be walking on a treadmill at the gym. Good luck with that.
C25K won't do anything to help you shed pounds. Not a damn thing. Any calories that you burn (and it won't be many) you will earn back on your couch that night or during your "reward snack". Do you know anyone training for their first marathon? Look at their belly.
Happy Hunting!
Where exactly did he say he was going to eat a reward snack on the couch?
Those were my words not his. Do you think people lose weight training for an athletic event? The goals are in conflict.0 -
kozykondition1 wrote: »kozykondition1 wrote: »About the only thing that I can think of that would be worse than running on a treadmill at the gym would be walking on a treadmill at the gym. Good luck with that.
C25K won't do anything to help you shed pounds. Not a damn thing. Any calories that you burn (and it won't be many) you will earn back on your couch that night or during your "reward snack". Do you know anyone training for their first marathon? Look at their belly.
Happy Hunting!
Where exactly did he say he was going to eat a reward snack on the couch?
Those were my words not his. Do you think people lose weight training for an athletic event? The goals are in conflict.
There is nothing in either op about him eating reward snacks. That's where I'm confused with your statement.0 -
On top of that, Ive never heard of any credible source that says a threadmill wont help you lose weight. Its not about the calories burned as much its about your heart rate being in the optimal range for weight burn. You can do anything for half hour or an hour a day with your heart at above 120 (as opposed to 70 resting) and you will burn fat. Give me peer reviewed and credible resources to back your claim and Ill take you seriously @kozykondition10
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NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »On top of that, Ive never heard of any credible source that says a threadmill wont help you lose weight. Its not about the calories burned as much its about your heart rate being in the optimal range for weight burn. You can do anything for half hour or an hour a day with your heart at above 120 (as opposed to 70 resting) and you will burn fat. Give me peer reviewed and credible resources to back your claim and Ill take you seriously @kozykondition1
Also- as long as you are in a calorie deficit you will lose weight regardless if you exercise or not.0 -
Deleted. Misunderstood sij.0
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The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle
Awful idea frankly.
The main benefit of strength/weight training in a deficit is to preserve your existing muscle mass. Far easier to maintain what you have than risk losing it and have to rebuild.
As a young male you are well placed to at least maintain your muscle mass - if your training is good, deficit is low (slow rate of weight loss), adequate protein and you haven't many training years under your belt there's a reasonable chance of adding muscle.
Assuming you are new to weights I would recommend 3 x week, full body, focussed on the main compound lifts. (Plenty of well known programs about.)
Cardio to taste and to progress towards your fitness goals NOT to create an excessive deficit. Fuel your exercise.
This kinda goes against good advice given in my past thread. I was told Ill only get noobie gains but they will hault after a little while. Biggest goal is to get ride of a gut at the moment. I don't know what to do
Rather conflicting to me really 0 -
NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle
Awful idea frankly.
The main benefit of strength/weight training in a deficit is to preserve your existing muscle mass. Far easier to maintain what you have than risk losing it and have to rebuild.
As a young male you are well placed to at least maintain your muscle mass - if your training is good, deficit is low (slow rate of weight loss), adequate protein and you haven't many training years under your belt there's a reasonable chance of adding muscle.
Assuming you are new to weights I would recommend 3 x week, full body, focussed on the main compound lifts. (Plenty of well known programs about.)
Cardio to taste and to progress towards your fitness goals NOT to create an excessive deficit. Fuel your exercise.
I weight 270 and Im 36% body fat. Im considered obese for all intents and purposes. I don't plan to slim down to nothing, but I think it would help me in the long run if I lose the weight now. There are some fat strong people out there and I don't want to be one of those lol. Maybe I am missing your credibility in the area though. If I am then I am sorry.
Asking for advice and then questioning my credibility is pretty rude young fella. I guess you are seeking confirmation and not advice.
I was strong, fat and fit for best part of 20 years before losing my blubber, while maintaining my muscle mass, increasing strength and hitting new fitness peaks.
You seem to have missed that I said maintain a calorie deficit BTW.
Good luck on your journey.0 -
NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle
Awful idea frankly.
The main benefit of strength/weight training in a deficit is to preserve your existing muscle mass. Far easier to maintain what you have than risk losing it and have to rebuild.
As a young male you are well placed to at least maintain your muscle mass - if your training is good, deficit is low (slow rate of weight loss), adequate protein and you haven't many training years under your belt there's a reasonable chance of adding muscle.
Assuming you are new to weights I would recommend 3 x week, full body, focussed on the main compound lifts. (Plenty of well known programs about.)
Cardio to taste and to progress towards your fitness goals NOT to create an excessive deficit. Fuel your exercise.
I weight 270 and Im 36% body fat. Im considered obese for all intents and purposes. I don't plan to slim down to nothing, but I think it would help me in the long run if I lose the weight now. There are some fat strong people out there and I don't want to be one of those lol. Maybe I am missing your credibility in the area though. If I am then I am sorry.
Asking for advice and then questioning my credibility is pretty rude young fella. I guess you are seeking confirmation and not advice.
I was strong, fat and fit for best part of 20 years before losing my blubber, while maintaining my muscle mass, increasing strength and hitting new fitness peaks.
You seem to have missed that I said maintain a calorie deficit BTW.
Good luck on your journey.
I also deleted that comment because I did not mean the intention of it. I understand and am listening to what you say. You made sense, it all just isn't clicking for me yet.0 -
kozykondition1 wrote: »kozykondition1 wrote: »About the only thing that I can think of that would be worse than running on a treadmill at the gym would be walking on a treadmill at the gym. Good luck with that.
C25K won't do anything to help you shed pounds. Not a damn thing. Any calories that you burn (and it won't be many) you will earn back on your couch that night or during your "reward snack". Do you know anyone training for their first marathon? Look at their belly.
Happy Hunting!
Where exactly did he say he was going to eat a reward snack on the couch?
Those were my words not his. Do you think people lose weight training for an athletic event? The goals are in conflict.
Dropping down weight classes in sports?
Wrestling, MMA, Powerlifting, Weightlifting....0 -
OP - I think a beginner lifting program + calorie deficit + some cardio is the way to go. If you start lifting now you can get some newbie gains, preserve the existing muscle you have, and also start to lose body fat, and get stronger.
so I would say pick from strong lifts, starting strength, or new rules of lifting and go with it...0 -
NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle
Awful idea frankly.
The main benefit of strength/weight training in a deficit is to preserve your existing muscle mass. Far easier to maintain what you have than risk losing it and have to rebuild.
As a young male you are well placed to at least maintain your muscle mass - if your training is good, deficit is low (slow rate of weight loss), adequate protein and you haven't many training years under your belt there's a reasonable chance of adding muscle.
Assuming you are new to weights I would recommend 3 x week, full body, focussed on the main compound lifts. (Plenty of well known programs about.)
Cardio to taste and to progress towards your fitness goals NOT to create an excessive deficit. Fuel your exercise.
This kinda goes against good advice given in my past thread. I was told Ill only get noobie gains but they will hault after a little while. Biggest goal is to get ride of a gut at the moment. I don't know what to do Rather conflicting to me really
lifting + cardio will get rid of your gut...
I think you are over thinking it..
pick a program
stay in a deficit
mix in some cardio
do this for four months and then re-assess...
if you just do cardio now and burn through your existing mass you are just going to be further behind the 8 ball when you want to start lifting. Why not get a good lifting foundation now, rather than four months from now...??0 -
NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »On top of that, Ive never heard of any credible source that says a threadmill wont help you lose weight. Its not about the calories burned as much its about your heart rate being in the optimal range for weight burn. You can do anything for half hour or an hour a day with your heart at above 120 (as opposed to 70 resting) and you will burn fat. Give me peer reviewed and credible resources to back your claim and Ill take you seriously @kozykondition1
http://jap.physiology.org/content/113/12/1831
Excerpts for you:
The exercise groups were as follows: 1) resistance training (RT), (3 days/wk, 3 sets/day, 8–12 repetitions/set); 2) aerobic training (AT), (calorically equivalent to ∼12 miles/wk at 65–80% peak VO2); 3) aerobic training plus resistance training (AT/RT), (calorically equivalent to ∼12 miles/wk at 65–80% peak VO2 plus 3 days/wk, 3 sets/day, 8–12 repetitions/set).
These were the specific findings, by the numbers (from the graph):
•The aerobics only group (deemed “most successful”), lost a mere 3.8 pounds of body weight and 3.6 pounds of fat in 8 months.
•The resistance training group gained 2.3 pounds of lean body mass and lost only .57 pounds of fat mass.
•The aerobic plus resistance group lost 5.36 pounds of fat mass and gained 1.78 pounds of lean body mass. That looks like the winner to me for overall body composition improvement, but even that is nothing to get excited about.
3.8 pounds of body weight in 8 months.0 -
OP - I think a beginner lifting program + calorie deficit + some cardio is the way to go. If you start lifting now you can get some newbie gains, preserve the existing muscle you have, and also start to lose body fat, and get stronger.
so I would say pick from strong lifts, starting strength, or new rules of lifting and go with it...
I most definitely am over thinking all of this haha. You have some great words here as well as sijomial who sent me a great email after I apologized for insulting his help lol. Im gonna do some searching for programs tonight and tailor it to the recommendations you made. Thanks for all the help guys.
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kozykondition1 wrote: »NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »On top of that, Ive never heard of any credible source that says a threadmill wont help you lose weight. Its not about the calories burned as much its about your heart rate being in the optimal range for weight burn. You can do anything for half hour or an hour a day with your heart at above 120 (as opposed to 70 resting) and you will burn fat. Give me peer reviewed and credible resources to back your claim and Ill take you seriously @kozykondition1
http://jap.physiology.org/content/113/12/1831
Excerpts for you:
The exercise groups were as follows: 1) resistance training (RT), (3 days/wk, 3 sets/day, 8–12 repetitions/set); 2) aerobic training (AT), (calorically equivalent to ∼12 miles/wk at 65–80% peak VO2); 3) aerobic training plus resistance training (AT/RT), (calorically equivalent to ∼12 miles/wk at 65–80% peak VO2 plus 3 days/wk, 3 sets/day, 8–12 repetitions/set).
These were the specific findings, by the numbers (from the graph):
•The aerobics only group (deemed “most successful”), lost a mere 3.8 pounds of body weight and 3.6 pounds of fat in 8 months.
•The resistance training group gained 2.3 pounds of lean body mass and lost only .57 pounds of fat mass.
•The aerobic plus resistance group lost 5.36 pounds of fat mass and gained 1.78 pounds of lean body mass. That looks like the winner to me for overall body composition improvement, but even that is nothing to get excited about.
3.8 pounds of body weight in 8 months.
Grant, I've only skimmed through the linked study but I didn't find anything about purposefully eating at a reduced calorie level. There is mention of track calories but nothing to indicate that any of the participants knew their maintenance calories (or an approximation) and then ate less than that on purpose. You seem to be overlooking that for the OP as well.0 -
kozykondition1 wrote: »NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »On top of that, Ive never heard of any credible source that says a threadmill wont help you lose weight. Its not about the calories burned as much its about your heart rate being in the optimal range for weight burn. You can do anything for half hour or an hour a day with your heart at above 120 (as opposed to 70 resting) and you will burn fat. Give me peer reviewed and credible resources to back your claim and Ill take you seriously @kozykondition1
http://jap.physiology.org/content/113/12/1831
Excerpts for you:
The exercise groups were as follows: 1) resistance training (RT), (3 days/wk, 3 sets/day, 8–12 repetitions/set); 2) aerobic training (AT), (calorically equivalent to ∼12 miles/wk at 65–80% peak VO2); 3) aerobic training plus resistance training (AT/RT), (calorically equivalent to ∼12 miles/wk at 65–80% peak VO2 plus 3 days/wk, 3 sets/day, 8–12 repetitions/set).
These were the specific findings, by the numbers (from the graph):
•The aerobics only group (deemed “most successful”), lost a mere 3.8 pounds of body weight and 3.6 pounds of fat in 8 months.
•The resistance training group gained 2.3 pounds of lean body mass and lost only .57 pounds of fat mass.
•The aerobic plus resistance group lost 5.36 pounds of fat mass and gained 1.78 pounds of lean body mass. That looks like the winner to me for overall body composition improvement, but even that is nothing to get excited about.
3.8 pounds of body weight in 8 months.
Grant, I've only skimmed through the linked study but I didn't find anything about purposefully eating at a reduced calorie level. There is mention of track calories but nothing to indicate that any of the participants knew their maintenance calories (or an approximation) and then ate less than that on purpose. You seem to be overlooking that for the OP as well.
Just to stem from this too, you seem to have no productive recommendation on what "to get excited about" or the best way to lose said weight. Everything is going to have different rates of weight lose, but slow lose is permanent lose.0 -
NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »OP - I think a beginner lifting program + calorie deficit + some cardio is the way to go. If you start lifting now you can get some newbie gains, preserve the existing muscle you have, and also start to lose body fat, and get stronger.
so I would say pick from strong lifts, starting strength, or new rules of lifting and go with it...
I most definitely am over thinking all of this haha. You have some great words here as well as sijomial who sent me a great email after I apologized for insulting his help lol. Im gonna do some searching for programs tonight and tailor it to the recommendations you made. Thanks for all the help guys.
It was mentioned in the other thread that if you were to do SL on the same days as your GF, it might cause an issue with 4(I think?) people trying to rotate in/out of the squat rack. Any way you could do some light cardio on those days, and do your strength training on her "off" days?0 -
Did you have any problems progressing with the programs on a deficit?
I didn't have any problems. The upper body was harder to increase on but as I've noticed in both groups on MFP, that is pretty common, especially overhead press. I'm only at around 60-65 on that lift, or less if doing a higher rep range, and on bench my max has been 100 for 3 reps. I've managed to lose over 50 lbs since the beginning of September due to deficit and having lifted weights since end of October. I have had some nice increases in the weights over that time. NROLFW has been a bit slower on the increases in part due to how the different stages are set up and the type of lifts, but I still am seeing improvements. The ones that are tough to increase have variables like only being able to increase in increments of 10 (cables for lat pull down), which can be difficult. I'm going to get through the whole program on a deficit and on the side am working on increasing deadlift as I want to lift 225 (have managed up to 200 so far).0 -
NJDevilsFan7576 wrote: »The general consensuses is that maybe I should lose weight before I build muscle
Awful idea frankly.
The main benefit of strength/weight training in a deficit is to preserve your existing muscle mass. Far easier to maintain what you have than risk losing it and have to rebuild.
As a young male you are well placed to at least maintain your muscle mass - if your training is good, deficit is low (slow rate of weight loss), adequate protein and you haven't many training years under your belt there's a reasonable chance of adding muscle.
Assuming you are new to weights I would recommend 3 x week, full body, focussed on the main compound lifts. (Plenty of well known programs about.)
Cardio to taste and to progress towards your fitness goals NOT to create an excessive deficit. Fuel your exercise.
This kinda goes against good advice given in my past thread. I was told Ill only get noobie gains but they will hault after a little while. Biggest goal is to get ride of a gut at the moment. I don't know what to do Rather conflicting to me really
lifting + cardio will get rid of your gut...
I think you are over thinking it..
pick a program
stay in a deficit
mix in some cardio
do this for four months and then re-assess...
if you just do cardio now and burn through your existing mass you are just going to be further behind the 8 ball when you want to start lifting. Why not get a good lifting foundation now, rather than four months from now...??
I tend to always like what he says...
Also, alot of people wish they had started lifting (I am one of them) when they started loosing weight... 99.9% of folks that are now at their fitness peak (weight loss and weight lifting programs) will tell you to start lifting now...
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