Flexible Dieting (IIFYM)
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235-240 at 10%? How tall are you?0
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Former long-time "clean" eater here, been doing IIFYM for about the last 2 years. I love IIFYM, it is really easy for me to adhere to.0
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I love IIFYM and have followed it for almost 2 years. Recently started Whole30 (very "clean" eating for 30 days but still tracking calories) and noticed that by eating whole foods I can survive on fewer calories and am not as hungry as with IIFYM. I'm guessing because all the vegetables help fill you up. So while I love IIFYM, I find it better for maintenance or bulking for me personally.0
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DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
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DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs0 -
mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Focus on both.
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LolBroScience wrote: »mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Focus on both.
co-sign0 -
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
0 -
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Got examples of nutrient dense foods? please.0 -
mitchelsimps wrote: »
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Got examples of nutrient dense foods? please.
Fruits, vegetables, lean meats.
ETA: To help get your micronutrients, try to eat vegetables and fruits of a variety of colors.0 -
mitchelsimps wrote: »
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Got examples of nutrient dense foods? please.
Google "Nutrient Dense Foods"0 -
mitchelsimps wrote: »
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Got examples of nutrient dense foods? please.
Fruits, vegetables, lean meats.
ETA: To help get your micronutrients, try to eat vegetables and fruits of a variety of colors.
Thanks for that! Love lean meat and veg so i'll be fine
0 -
mitchelsimps wrote: »
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Got examples of nutrient dense foods? please.
ANDI guide
It's not perfect but it's a good baseline...0 -
mitchelsimps wrote: »
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Got examples of nutrient dense foods? please.
ANDI guide
It's not perfect but it's a good baseline...
That was perfect thank you!0 -
mitchelsimps wrote: »mitchelsimps wrote: »
In my experience, if you hit your macros with mostly nutrient dense foods, hitting micros is not an issue. If you want some insurance take a multi vitamin...mitchelsimps wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »LyndseyLovesToLift wrote: »
Guess I thought Flexible Dieting meant something else, similar to IIFYM but not so macro-focused. I thought IIFYM meant hit target macros, micros, and calories in that order whereas FD meant a mix of the three with no stress on hitting macros/micros.
Well, now I know why I never get invited to the IIFYM and FD parties.
Thank you for posting this. You are exactly the person I am trying to address.
The so-called experts on this board often speak to everyone as if IIFYM is some well-understand concept when, in fact, the term "If it fits your macros" implies something quite different than what the actual plan is.
If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there. I lost 70 pounds myself using MyFitnessPal and a combination of diets. Probably the biggest thing standing in my way was bad advice from these forums. You can say I was naive for believing what I read in a forum, but if that were always true, then what's the point of an advice forum anyways? People come here seeking advice and help.
I wish the IIFYM fanboys could step back for just a minute and say "Hmm, if I was brand-new to this site, what might I think IIFYM is? What does that sound like?" And spend some time to describe the plan instead of denigrating people who try to bring a differing opinion.
In my opinion, what new dieters should take away from this site is that you whatever you were doing before didn't work. If total flexibility worked, then everyone would already be at their goal weight. At some point, everyone losing weight has to make some sacrifices. Yes, you can still have flexibility in your diet and eat pizza every now and then. But it is a poor strategy to assume that you can just eat less pizza and achieve all fitness and health goals. I am a big, big believer that everyone should focus on getting to a healthy weight first and foremost, and that everything else comes second. But the term "if it fits your macros" is unintentionally misleading to those new to it, to those that don't know the real plan. You should not eat everything under the sun just because it fits your macros. This is a poor dieting strategy and a poor long-term health strategy. I don't know how else to say it.
I am sure I will get a dozen responses say "but that's not what IIFYM is" or "you are an idiot" because that is typical of these forums. Very quick responses that don't solve anyone's problems, but instead just invite confrontation.
My advice to anyone reading this is to subscribe to www.LeanGains.com, www.BodyRecomposition.com, andhttp://jyfitness.blogspot.com/ . These are great sites that use science to back up their claims.
The MyFitnessPal forums are full of people that have opinions without any scientific backup (even mine is just an opinion). Buyer beware.
I do not even know what your point is.
If you follow IIFYM as a newbie and are in a calorie deficit then you are going to lose weight. So you believe that everyone should get to a healthy weight first, and then everything else follows? Ok, so you believe that newbies should ignore micros and get to a healthy first, and then concentrate on them; is that what you are saying? Because it sounds like you are saying the exact same thing that you claim to think IIFYM does.
Did you even read the links that we posted that specially said that you do not ignore micronutrient requirements when doing IIFYM?
At the end of the day all IIFYM is a tool to get into a calorie deficit, meet micro/macro requirements, and still enjoy the foods you enjoy in moderation.
Again, IIFYM is not eating pizza and pop tarts all day. You can keep trying to say that, but it does not make it true.
I am starting this diet in 2 weeks (after my holiday) how important is it too concentrate on MICROnutrients? or can i just concentrate on MACROs
Got examples of nutrient dense foods? please.
Fruits, vegetables, lean meats.
ETA: To help get your micronutrients, try to eat vegetables and fruits of a variety of colors.
Thanks for that! Love lean meat and veg so i'll be fine
you can also take a multivitamin, which is what I do ..but I also eat vegetables, fruit, fish, etc...0 -
DeeJayShank wrote: »If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there.
To me this is rather insulting, as it assumes I (as the hypothetical person who needs to lose 100 lbs, which was in fact my goal when starting out) am necessarily not very sensible and perhaps kind of dim.
To start, I think virtually everyone knows what decent nutrition involves--balanced meals, eat vegetables, probably some protein, less processed vs. more for fiber, stuff like that. Also, of course, fewer treats, and everyone knows what they've been eating as treats vs. the nutrition content (whether it's been sweets, chips, lots of fried food, lots of cheese, etc. -- not that those things don't have nutrients too, but the calories are out of whack if they are a huge part of the diet).
So people KNOW they ought to cut down on these things when starting and--if they aren't--eat more veg, lean meat (if not vegetarian), etc.
Their question is how to implement this.
IIFYM gives an easy template -- pick some sensible macros and fit them. BUT it's explained that the macros depend on you--if you are hungry, modify the macros and maybe try fewer carbs. If you are working out a lot and need more energy, maybe try more carbs. Find where you feel good. For most people who need to lose a lot (barring people with IR), it won't make that much difference beyond (a) getting adequate protein, and (b) personal preference.
Beyond this, though, ANYONE losing weight needs to pay attention to how he or she feels. If you are hungry, change what you are eating to be more satiating. That's regardless of "diet" and is simple common sense. I just intuitively started filling up my plates with vegetables, since I like volume and know vegetables are low calorie. Did I need this explained to me by someone like you or was I "confused" away from it by the concept of flexible dieting? No, because I am not an idiot. Knowing how to eat so that you are not hungry is not rocket science and is simple experimentation even if you are initially confused (and is generally common sense, again).
Also, since I didn't care ONLY about weight loss but also about health and fitness, I considered nutrition.
Reading this forum helped me loosen up some, but I can't think of a thing I read that would have caused me to think I should stop what I was doing and eat without considering nutrition. You really have to be reaching for it to find that. And if you are, that's because you already want to eat in a certain way and no advice (other than a lie--that you can't lose weight doing it) will convince you out of it. But I do think MANY people start out and gradually modify how they eat over time, as they figure out what makes them feel better.0 -
Oh, and to add to that, when I started MFP I was doing a modified paleo thing influenced strongly by my own past history of being into eating as "natural" and local as possible, although I already thought my leanings toward the woo were a little ridiculous, I also knew I tended to enjoy that sort of thing.
So when I found a paleo vs. "clean eating" (not a term I was then familiar with except as meaning "as paleo as possible" vs. IIFYM discussion, I was interested and initially kind of annoyed at some of the claims by the IIFYM eater (like that McD's wasn't "unhealthy," as I would have claimed it was). In responding to the arguments I did what any sensible person on the internet would do--look up IIFYM and read about what it was.
In reading about what it, and flexible dieting, were, I understood right away that part of the concept was to eat an overall healthy diet with attention toward nutrition. I think that's really not that mysterious if someone reads the background on it.0 -
I love IIFYM and have followed it for almost 2 years. Recently started Whole30 (very "clean" eating for 30 days but still tracking calories) and noticed that by eating whole foods I can survive on fewer calories and am not as hungry as with IIFYM. I'm guessing because all the vegetables help fill you up. So while I love IIFYM, I find it better for maintenance or bulking for me personally.
Why can't you eat lots of vegetables on IIFYM? I don't do Whole30, but I eat as many vegetables as I did when I was doing paleo. (I like vegetables and also find them filling.)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »DeeJayShank wrote: »If I am 100 pounds overweight, new to this site, and I read a post that says "you can lose a lot of weight with IIFYM, try it out, just make sure food fits your macros", and I continue to read this over and over again, it is simply going to reinforce a plan in my mind that lets me eat the same food I always ate before, but just less of it. I am going to do just that, and then wonder why I am hungry, tired, etc. I've been there.
To me this is rather insulting, as it assumes I (as the hypothetical person who needs to lose 100 lbs, which was in fact my goal when starting out) am necessarily not very sensible and perhaps kind of dim.
To start, I think virtually everyone knows what decent nutrition involves--balanced meals, eat vegetables, probably some protein, less processed vs. more for fiber, stuff like that. Also, of course, fewer treats, and everyone knows what they've been eating as treats vs. the nutrition content (whether it's been sweets, chips, lots of fried food, lots of cheese, etc. -- not that those things don't have nutrients too, but the calories are out of whack if they are a huge part of the diet).
So people KNOW they ought to cut down on these things when starting and--if they aren't--eat more veg, lean meat (if not vegetarian), etc.
Their question is how to implement this.
IIFYM gives an easy template -- pick some sensible macros and fit them. BUT it's explained that the macros depend on you--if you are hungry, modify the macros and maybe try fewer carbs. If you are working out a lot and need more energy, maybe try more carbs. Find where you feel good. For most people who need to lose a lot (barring people with IR), it won't make that much difference beyond (a) getting adequate protein, and (b) personal preference.
Beyond this, though, ANYONE losing weight needs to pay attention to how he or she feels. If you are hungry, change what you are eating to be more satiating. That's regardless of "diet" and is simple common sense. I just intuitively started filling up my plates with vegetables, since I like volume and know vegetables are low calorie. Did I need this explained to me by someone like you or was I "confused" away from it by the concept of flexible dieting? No, because I am not an idiot. Knowing how to eat so that you are not hungry is not rocket science and is simple experimentation even if you are initially confused (and is generally common sense, again).
Also, since I didn't care ONLY about weight loss but also about health and fitness, I considered nutrition.
Reading this forum helped me loosen up some, but I can't think of a thing I read that would have caused me to think I should stop what I was doing and eat without considering nutrition. You really have to be reaching for it to find that. And if you are, that's because you already want to eat in a certain way and no advice (other than a lie--that you can't lose weight doing it) will convince you out of it. But I do think MANY people start out and gradually modify how they eat over time, as they figure out what makes them feel better.
+1. It drives me crazy when people infer that the average noob lacks the critical thinking skills to have the most basic understanding of what needs to happen to lose weight and implement a healthy lifestyle. I've never once on these forums seen a brand new person who is inquiring about CICO, IIFYM or Flexible Dieting to interpret the advice as "great, I really can eat donuts all day long and still lose weight since that's how I currently eat!" The only people who interpret the advice that way are the people on the other side of the debate who want to stir up an argument. I think it is insulting to assume that the average person is eating nothing but donuts all day long and that the advice from CICO/IIFYM/Flexible Eaters endorses that behavior.
0
This discussion has been closed.
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