Carbohydrate Addiction

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

TheVirgoddess wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

TheVirgoddess wrote: »

nvsmomketo wrote: »

cld111 wrote: »

whmscll wrote: »

It is true for some people, not you maybe. Definitely true for me. When I have a craving it is never for something high protein, it is ALWAYS for carbs. Sometimes I crave cheese, but more often it's bread, cakes, crackers or cookies.

I don't understand why these things always get thrown into the carbs category when they are mostly fat?

For instance, a chocolate chip cookie is about 3% of the RDA of carbs and 6% of the RDA of fat. Cake is 17% carbs and 25% fat.

It just drives me a little batty because then whole food carbs like potatoes and rice get thrown in with these other types of carbs (fats) and people avoid them even though they are good for you.

So fat is the problem for you. Not me. People differ.

That's not what she's saying at all. She's saying that the foods people often cite being "addicted" to are full of fat, too - so why are we assuming that carbs are the issue?

If you crave carbs, wouldn't you crave all carbs? Like potatoes, vegetables, dried fruits? It seems there's a clearer correlation between "cravings" and fat vs "cravings" and carbs. IMO, anyway. And perhaps when people go low carb, they generally up their fat, and their "cravings" are reduced because their fat intake is up.

It's an interesting point but there is some indication that sugar is unique in it's ability to induce cravings -- the milkshake study from a year or two comes to mind. That, and I just tend to believe people when they say carbs and sugar are the issue. I imagine that by the time they get to MFP seeking help they've been dealing with their issue long enough to know.

And I think they are latching onto the current craze.

I mean, if you google "how to lose weight" the very first thing listed is "eat low carb". Carbs and sugar are the current "bad" food, like fat was in the 80's.

I think humans are, more often than not, looking for things to blame when we make bad choices. It's much easier to say "I'm addicted to carbs" than "I didn't control myself very well". One places blame on something external, the other internal.

Again, all of this is my opinion.

I think it was a long time coming and it was inevitable because it's a real concern (not a low carb craze) but that could just be my own bias. Time will tell. I did just come across an article from 1993 (22 years ago when fat was bad and carbs were good) that proposes excessive carbs are a real concern... beyond being tasty and people would rather eat them than lose weight.

"It is proposed that chronic hyperinsulinemia is largely responsible for hunger, cravings and weight gain observed in many obese. This form of obesity can be treated by decreasing frequency of daily intake of carbohydrates to one well-balance meal each day and allowing for additional meals that are low in fat, low carbohydrates and high fiber. Animal experimentation and epidemiological evidence support the role of chronic hyperinsulinemia as a major factor in obesity and accounts for the frequent failures of diet and behavioral modification programs. Chronic hyperinsulinemia upsets metabolic balances and favors anabolic metabolism; fosters carbohydrate cravings; promotes insulin resistance which further promotes anabolic metabolism; and insulin resistance in turn exacerbates chronic hyperinsulinemia. This vicious cycle maintains excess weight and defeats diet and behavioral modification attempts to treat obesity. An eating program focused on reduction of chronic hyperinsulinemia coupled with appropriate exercise and behavior modification can successfully and permanently bring down cravings, hunger and body weight." --Hyperinsulinemic obesity and carbohydrate addiction: the missing link is the carbohydrate frequency factor

I think there's much more to be learned yet.

The source? Author of The Carbohydrate Addict's Diet.

PeachyCarol wrote: »

The source? Author of The Carbohydrate Addict's Diet.

Do you think the hypothesis is without merit or supporting research then?

TheVirgoddess wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

MoiAussi93 wrote: »

The science on carb addiction is inconclusive at this point. It hasn't been 100% proven and it is a controversial subject. However, many academics who have spent their entire careers looking at these types of issues believe it may be real. That is why the research continues...more information is needed. In the meantime, experiment and find what works best for you. For some people, including me, avoiding certain carbs is the best and most sustainable way to go. But it's not for everyone.

My research reading and experience backs up your thoughts on the subject.

Some of the more recent research i have seen would suggest that it isnt carbs that are addictive but rather hyperpalatble foods. I believe their is assertion is that many of the foods people claim to be addicited to isnt a sugar food but rather a food that is both fat and sugar. And in many cases those are foods (cookies, cake, etc) which are actually higher in fat than sugar itself.

If we objectively looked at this, if it was just a sugar issue, they why arent people addicted to fruits and veggies?

IMO, most of these so called "addiction foods" are more than likely peoples comfort foods that they have developed a habit of turning to when sad. This is why i have always said its more emotional than physical. And this is why i believe its different than alcohol and drugs because your body can form physical dependencies on those.

I think it's insulin resistance that's driving the cravings and loss of control in a lot of these instances for a lot of people. My cravings, insatiable appetite and out of control eating get switched off like a light switch eating low carb -- that's not emotional or an addiction (even though it feels like it). It could also explain why when some people lose weight and exercise (both improve IR) they "learn moderation".

I had IR when I first started this weight loss thing. I never had cravings, at all. I didn't moderate my food, because I was too depressed to care about my health or weight. Moderation definitely came first for me, which allowed me to lose 85 pounds and successfully reverse my IR.

Anecdotal, I know - just food for thought

I don't know about anyone else but I always appreciate reading about people's personal experiences. I think there's more value in the anecdotal for anyone who's struggling than the link-a-study nonsense that goes on. So thanks for sharing.

mccindy72 wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

PeachyCarol wrote: »

The source? Author of The Carbohydrate Addict's Diet.

Do you think the hypothesis is without merit or supporting research then?

Did you read my post and the source listed? unbiased, independent source? biased sources skew results to find what they want to see.

I don't mean this to be rude but I do consider the source of everything I read which is why I generally don't reply to many of the posts here. If there was an ignore function I'd utilize it.

Caitwn wrote: »

mantium999 wrote: »

For those who find carbs to be a particular issue, do you still try to hit suggested fiber targets, while minimizing your carb intake?

I don't know if I am in the right category to respond to your question. I don't find carbs to be an issue. But I am participating in a study, and one of the things they've requested of participants is that we set our carbs to 30-35%. From what I've read about low-carb diets, I am thinking that 30-35% is on the very high end of carb reduction and may not even be considered to be low-carb (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

So with that in mind: I usually hit suggested fiber targets and stay within the carb limits, but not always. I'm usually close even on "off" days unless I decide I really want some Talenti gelato .

Once I'm done with the study I will probably up the carb level to a more normal range of 40-50% because I really like grains.

I don't believe carbs or any food are "addictive", but I think a lot of people have confused strong cravings with actual addiction. And for reasons I can't understand, some folks seem really dedicated to calling themselves "addicts" when in reality they're in the category of what I'd consider to be "problem eaters" or "problem drinkers". Because of that, I feel the term "addiction" has been pretty well co-opted and even trivialized by over-use and inappropriate use. And that's a shame because it muddies the water when trying to discuss interventions, behavior change strategies, and treatments. But I think we're stuck with the way people use the word now.

My carbs are the same percentage as yours. So wherever that falls on the spectrum of carb counting? I don't consider it low, though. I usually call it moderate. I do it to keep my energy levels in check, since I have fatigue associated with a few medical conditions. If I have too many carbs, they make me sleepy. Too few, and I have no energy.

I have a high fiber goal for myself--40grams--and usually come close or go over. A good chunk of that comes from a daily Quest bar, but I do eat plenty of veg and fruit and often eat beans and some grains since I'm a vegetarian.

I also cosign your last paragraph.

mccindy72 wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

PeachyCarol wrote: »

The source? Author of The Carbohydrate Addict's Diet.

Do you think the hypothesis is without merit or supporting research then?

Did you read my post and the source listed? unbiased, independent source? biased sources skew results to find what they want to see.

She (the author of that paper) would not be the first to cook their findings to suit their pet theory. One of the big proponents of the GI theory does this with his studies all the time, and he's the one whose work makes the news.

Other studies on GI/GL, done on mixed meals and designed more around the way people normally eat, don't support his findings.

kgeyser wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

kgeyser wrote: »

DeguelloTex wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

psulemon wrote: »

GaleHawkins wrote: »

MoiAussi93 wrote: »

The science on carb addiction is inconclusive at this point. It hasn't been 100% proven and it is a controversial subject. However, many academics who have spent their entire careers looking at these types of issues believe it may be real. That is why the research continues...more information is needed. In the meantime, experiment and find what works best for you. For some people, including me, avoiding certain carbs is the best and most sustainable way to go. But it's not for everyone.

My research reading and experience backs up your thoughts on the subject.

Some of the more recent research i have seen would suggest that it isnt carbs that are addictive but rather hyperpalatble foods. I believe their is assertion is that many of the foods people claim to be addicited to isnt a sugar food but rather a food that is both fat and sugar. And in many cases those are foods (cookies, cake, etc) which are actually higher in fat than sugar itself.

If we objectively looked at this, if it was just a sugar issue, they why arent people addicted to fruits and veggies?

IMO, most of these so called "addiction foods" are more than likely peoples comfort foods that they have developed a habit of turning to when sad. This is why i have always said its more emotional than physical. And this is why i believe its different than alcohol and drugs because your body can form physical dependencies on those.

I think it's insulin resistance that's driving the cravings and loss of control in a lot of these instances for a lot of people. My cravings, insatiable appetite and out of control eating get switched off like a light switch eating low carb -- that's not emotional or an addiction (even though it feels like it). It could also explain why when some people lose weight and exercise (both improve IR) they "learn moderation".

I lost weight because I "learned moderation." I didn't "learn moderation" because I lost weight. That completely switches cause and effect. Maybe that works differently for other people.

I think you're misunderstanding what AlabasterVerve is suggesting. The theory is that IR impacts cravings, and by reducing carbs, the cravings are reduced, allowing the person to be successful with their weight loss. As we know, weight loss improves IR, meaning that once someone is a healthy weight and no longer dealing with the IR, they find themselves able to moderate foods that previously they found themselves overeating.

I don't know how much scientific support there is for this, but it's an interesting idea, and could help explain why moderation is more difficult for some people. @AlabasterVerve, did you read this somewhere, or is this just you positing this idea?

No, it's not new. The earliest reference to it I've found so far is from 1993 (I posted this earlier):

"It is proposed that chronic hyperinsulinemia is largely responsible for hunger, cravings and weight gain observed in many obese. This form of obesity can be treated by decreasing frequency of daily intake of carbohydrates to one well-balance meal each day and allowing for additional meals that are low in fat, low carbohydrates and high fiber. Animal experimentation and epidemiological evidence support the role of chronic hyperinsulinemia as a major factor in obesity and accounts for the frequent failures of diet and behavioral modification programs. Chronic hyperinsulinemia upsets metabolic balances and favors anabolic metabolism; fosters carbohydrate cravings; promotes insulin resistance which further promotes anabolic metabolism; and insulin resistance in turn exacerbates chronic hyperinsulinemia. This vicious cycle maintains excess weight and defeats diet and behavioral modification attempts to treat obesity. An eating program focused on reduction of chronic hyperinsulinemia coupled with appropriate exercise and behavior modification can successfully and permanently bring down cravings, hunger and body weight." --Hyperinsulinemic obesity and carbohydrate addiction: the missing link is the carbohydrate frequency factor

ETA: I really have no idea how mainstream any of these theories are since most everything I read on the subject comes through those who favor low carb.

Thanks for sharing, I had forgotten I'd asked you about it. I'm not sure how much I buy into the impacts of insulin or some of the claims how many people suffer from IR, but it's an interesting idea. I know people who tend to overeat sugar containing foods (hyperpalatable fat/sugar combos) and have gone low carb in the past and lost weight, so I'm going to ask them about whether they noticed a difference. Anecdotal, obviously, but the nice thing about science is anecdotes and general observations often lead to new discoveries and information.

I started eating a low carb diet to reduce my risk of diabetes, heart disease and cancer (not as a weight loss strategy) so the normalized appetite came as a surprise to me. It was such a profound relief to feel normal again I'll happily eat a low carb diet for the rest of my life. But I think it helps that eating low carb is not all that different than what I grew up with so it feels comfortable and familiar to me.

But that it worked so well and so quickly definitely peaked my interest into what was going on and how it worked. I assumed it was just the carbs/sugar causing an increase in appetite, or I thought perhaps the ketone production was suppressing appetite but the IR angle came up more than once here on the forums and after reading up on it that seems to explain my experience as well as anything else. I'm not married to any one theory but the IR aspect seems promising and there is some support in the mainstream literature for it. Whatever it is, I'm very much interested in the subject and I'm happy to see research time and money being devoted to it. I think low carb, for some people like myself, is working on a level beyond creating the necessary calorie deficit.

Necessary MFP Disclaimer: I don't prescribe low carb for anyone let alone everyone, not even for someone with metabolic issues that might very well benefit from a low carb diet. As PeachyCarol pointed out above there's psychological components that need to be considered and sometimes addressed. And I know for myself there was behavioral changes I needed to make; low carb was not a cure all.

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

I started eating a low carb diet to reduce my risk of diabetes, heart disease and cancer (not as a weight loss strategy) so the normalized appetite came as a surprise to me. It was such a profound relief to feel normal again I'll happily eat a low carb diet for the rest of my life. But I think it helps that eating low carb is not all that different than what I grew up with so it feels comfortable and familiar to me.

But that it worked so well and so quickly definitely peaked my interest into what was going on and how it worked. I assumed it was just the carbs/sugar causing an increase in appetite, or I thought perhaps the ketone production was suppressing appetite but the IR angle came up more than once here on the forums and after reading up on it that seems to explain my experience as well as anything else. I'm not married to any one theory but the IR aspect seems promising and there is some support in the mainstream literature for it. Whatever it is, I'm very much interested in the subject and I'm happy to see research time and money being devoted to it. I think low carb, for some people like myself, is working on a level beyond creating the necessary calorie deficit.

Necessary MFP Disclaimer: I don't prescribe low carb for anyone let alone everyone, not even for someone with metabolic issues that might very well benefit from a low carb diet. As PeachyCarol pointed out above there's psychological components that need to be considered and sometimes addressed. And I know for myself there was behavioral changes I needed to make; low carb was not a cure all.

I am glad you found a good way of eating but LC doesnt prevent those things in bold. Obesity and genetics will have a much greater impact on all of them.

snikkins wrote: »

PeachyCarol wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

PeachyCarol wrote: »

The source? Author of The Carbohydrate Addict's Diet.

Do you think the hypothesis is without merit or supporting research then?

No, I don't think that the hypothesis is without merit. A lot of obese people likely have IR.

However, I disagree that it's necessary to low-carb to diet down to desirable weight to reverse it.

I'll wait for the n=1 that I know of who disproves the necessity of doing so to post her experience. I think I saw her avi while the page scrolled down, so I think she already DID reply

It's certainly an option for someone to choose to low carb, and some people might have more issue with craving, but... the psychological component to the whole craving cycle is being given very little attention in this thread, and I believe it deserves more, because it's a powerful component to our attachment to and association with certain foods.

Agreed.

I get that mental health has a giant stigma around it (I'm in the US, so that's what I'm talking to at this point; it may be different elsewhere, but I don't always get that impression), but I think @PeachyCarol is making an excellent point about the psychological component being ignored. Compulsion is extremely powerful. Is it addiction? Not as such, but that doesn't mean it should get ignored.

I almost wonder if people want this to be an addiction so that they "can't help it" over acknowledging they might need some therapy to help so they don't have to go down the mental health stigma road.

I think you might be on to something, as addiction is a bit more accepted compared to "invisible" disorders in mental health. Mental health has a stigma, and I think the cases in which the disorder is not severe to the point of being debilitating or readily noticeable is even less accepted - the person is just quirky, or having a tough time, or (insert reason here). Trying to convince someone, even medical professionals, that there is something going on can be difficult, so people may want it to be something else so that someone will take notice.

snikkins wrote: »

PeachyCarol wrote: »

AlabasterVerve wrote: »

PeachyCarol wrote: »

The source? Author of The Carbohydrate Addict's Diet.

Do you think the hypothesis is without merit or supporting research then?

No, I don't think that the hypothesis is without merit. A lot of obese people likely have IR.

However, I disagree that it's necessary to low-carb to diet down to desirable weight to reverse it.

I'll wait for the n=1 that I know of who disproves the necessity of doing so to post her experience. I think I saw her avi while the page scrolled down, so I think she already DID reply

It's certainly an option for someone to choose to low carb, and some people might have more issue with craving, but... the psychological component to the whole craving cycle is being given very little attention in this thread, and I believe it deserves more, because it's a powerful component to our attachment to and association with certain foods.

Agreed.

I get that mental health has a giant stigma around it (I'm in the US, so that's what I'm talking to at this point; it may be different elsewhere, but I don't always get that impression), but I think @PeachyCarol is making an excellent point about the psychological component being ignored. Compulsion is extremely powerful. Is it addiction? Not as such, but that doesn't mean it should get ignored.

I almost wonder if people want this to be an addiction so that they "can't help it" over acknowledging they might need some therapy to help so they don't have to go down the mental health stigma road.

There don't even have to be mental health issues at play, per se.

I was thinking of this earlier. I think one of the struggles some of us go through on our way to finding the ultimate solution to an ongoing weight problem is one of our own self-identity. How we think of ourselves and our relationship with food within that context is a big stumbling block for some people.

A lot of times, what some people (yes, even me) call excuses, are really people trying to find a way to cling to that same self-identity but to try to make progress towards what they think they should be doing. It's a tough row to hoe, because sometimes, that self-identity revolves around being fat -- and what you think you should do is not be fat! What a conundrum. I think this is why a lot of diets fail.

Ultimately, it's an endless game of fooling yourself, but it's a viscous cycle to be caught in. I've been there, so I speak from personal experience.