How low can I keep my protein?
bertobelle77
Posts: 17 Member
I am currently 227lbs and 40% body fat. I would like to lose 10% of my body fat while keeping as much of my lean muscle as possible. I am vegetarian and so my protein consumption tends to be on the low side, today I got about 40g of protein for example.
I know some sources say to eat huge amounts of protein but I am really not convinced that is healthy long term for example this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia.
I do agree high protein makes people look good and makes them strong but it also seems to be negative long term for health.
In addition I like to eat a high antioxident diet with lots of fresh vegetables and some fruits, nuts etc because that is good for my skin.
What is the minimum amount of protein I can eat to meet my goals of losing fat and keeping my mucle as much as possible?
Thank you!
Note: I am a vegetarian but I do eat eggs and milk.
I know some sources say to eat huge amounts of protein but I am really not convinced that is healthy long term for example this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia.
I do agree high protein makes people look good and makes them strong but it also seems to be negative long term for health.
In addition I like to eat a high antioxident diet with lots of fresh vegetables and some fruits, nuts etc because that is good for my skin.
What is the minimum amount of protein I can eat to meet my goals of losing fat and keeping my mucle as much as possible?
Thank you!
Note: I am a vegetarian but I do eat eggs and milk.
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Replies
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Most people recommend 0.8g/pound of lean mass. I aim for 0.8/lb-which is around 116g, but in happy if I get around 100. 40 sounds very low-particularly since you are losing weight.
I do not eat meat, either. I do eat dairy and eggs. Most days I have a protein smoothie that incorporates Greek yogurt and whey protein and is about 40g in and of itself. It's a super easy (and delicious) way to get some extra protein.
Even without protein powder it's not too hard. Greek yogurt, meat replacement products, grain breads and pastas, beans and lentils. Make it a priority and you'll get more in.0 -
I range at about 60-80g on a vegan diet. Minimum amount I have heard is about 30-40g. Most health fitness magazines will say to eat your weight in the amount of grams of protein. I agree to disagree with you on stuff like this.
In order for me to determine if I am getting enough protein I do it relative to how sore I am feeling. For example, if I workout and the next day I feel extremely sore I will generally increase my protein consumption. If lets say I feel sore two days after then I know i'm most likely not intaking enough protein. I do take into account that the body needs to process it and as well as the rebuilding phase can sometimes take a while but thats my way of somewhat determining how much I need.0 -
bertobelle77 wrote: »I am currently 227lbs and 40% body fat. I would like to lose 10% of my body fat while keeping as much of my lean muscle as possible. I am vegetarian and so my protein consumption tends to be on the low side, today I got about 40g of protein for example.
I know some sources say to eat huge amounts of protein but I am really not convinced that is healthy long term for example this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia.
I do agree high protein makes people look good and makes them strong but it also seems to be negative long term for health.
In addition I like to eat a high antioxident diet with lots of fresh vegetables and some fruits, nuts etc because that is good for my skin.
What is the minimum amount of protein I can eat to meet my goals of losing fat and keeping my mucle as much as possible?
Thank you!
Note: I am a vegetarian but I do eat eggs and milk.
Where did you hear the bold statement?
Typically, to maintain lean body mass, you want .8g-1g of protein per lb of lean body mass. Additionally, you will want some resistance training.
ps - your study requires a login, do you have the study from another source?0 -
The RDI is around 50 grams per day in many places. 75 grams is OK for an obese person on a VLCD so there's some numbers to shoot at.0
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And there is plenty of research suggesting that higher protein is beneficial, especially when the OP's ultimate goal is maintaining "as much lean body mass as possible". Below is a pretty good thread with a ton of studies at various levels.The RDI is around 50 grams per day in many places. 75 grams is OK for an obese person on a VLCD so there's some numbers to shoot at.
I guess the question for the OP, is what is their training routine as well?
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/823505
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regarding the study
"Unexpectedly, mice fed a high protein/low carbohydrate diet had brains five percent lighter that all the others, and regions of their hippocampus were less developed. This result was a surprise, and, until researchers test this effect on non-transgenic mice, it is unclear whether the loss of brain mass is associated with AD-type plaque. But some studies in the published literature led the authors to put forward a tentative theory that a high protein diet may leave neurones more vulnerable to AD plaque. Mice on a high fat diet had raised levels of plaque proteins, but this had no effect on plaque burden."
Note the bold
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/10/091020192206.htm0 -
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Iron_Feline wrote: »
Thanks, it's also worth noting that the HP diet made up 60% of their intake, which is beyond crazy.
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I would say keep an eye on your strength. If you are strong, it stands to reason that you have enough muscle to be healthy.0
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Most people here go for the maximum amount of protein that can do them any good. Some go for more than can do them any good. MFP is a very pro-protein group, on the whole.
There really isn't a minimum recommendation, except to say 10-35% of your calories.
If you want the general recommendation, it's .8g per kilogram of body weight a day. You should try to get that much.
Eggs, cottage cheese, yogurt, tofu, edamame - all big sources of protein for the vegetarian. Some eat Quorn or Morning Star faux-meats, but that's a hotly contested issue in the vegetarian community and I'm not taking a side on that. If you're cool with faux-meat, try them. If you're not, don't, I don't care who eats what and am just tossing out an idea.
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Iron_Feline wrote: »
Thanks, it's also worth noting that the HP diet made up 60% of their intake, which is beyond crazy.
Yeah - that's way more protein that I've ever seen recommended.
And showing yet again why people need to read and understand studies before claiming they do things.
since this comment
"this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia."
becomes
"this study shows a possible link if you eat 60% of your calories in protein and are a transgenic mouse"
on reading the study.0 -
For basic health the normal recommendation for protein is .8 g/kg of bodyweight. The numbers you see floating around (like 56 g) tend to be based on averages, so I wouldn't rely on them. So for you I'd think 82 g. (It's higher because your weight is higher than the average ones that tend to be used. For me that number would be only 45, because my weight is reasonably average for a woman--125.)
However, I'd caution you if you are worried about maintaining muscle mass while losing and if you are exercising that you might want to go higher. There is evidence of benefits up to 1-1.5 g/kg of bodyweight (see http://examine.com/faq/how-much-protein-do-i-need-every-day.html), although if you are obese focusing on lean mass or goal bodyweight might be a better way to figure it (if using lean mass the multiplier is higher). For you that gives you about 104 grams as the lower part of that range.
As for negative effects from higher protein, that generally relates to much higher levels than we are talking about here. As for a connection with dementia, I've only seen that asserted in relatively untrustworthy sources (like Mercola and the Daily Mail) and it seems it's highly speculative and there is other evidence related to other macronutrients (see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810099) so I'd not be inclined to worry about it.
What is more likely true is that eating in a way that is sustainable for you will probably be healthiest overall for the longterm, as it will allow you to eat in a way that prevents excess weight. As a vegetarian, it may be harder to get protein, although dairy and eggs plus legumes and other vegetarian sources should be plenty if you wish to organize your diet to increase protein.0 -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22810099
Abstract: The risk of MCI or dementia (hazard ratio, [95% confidence interval]) was elevated in subjects with high % carbohydrate (upper quartile: 1.89 [1.17-3.06]; p for trend = 0.004), but was reduced in subjects with high % fat (upper quartile: 0.56 [0.34-0.91]; p for trend = 0.03), and high % protein (upper quartile 0.79 [0.52-1.20]; p for trend = 0.03) in the fully adjusted models. A dietary pattern with relatively high caloric intake from carbohydrates and low caloric intake from fat and proteins may increase the risk of MCI or dementia in elderly persons.
Instead of going high this, low that, why not just go with the middle of the recommended ranges?0 -
Technically, the .8/kg/day is supposed to be kilograms of healthy body weight. It doesn't really go way, way up because you're obese. But since you'll have a higher intake, the 10-35% will go up.0
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.77g/lb of protein seems to be sufficient if you are trying to maintain your current muscle mass while lifting. I've seen as low a number as .61g/lb of protein (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1400008), but I did like the methodology of the study that found .77g/lb so I'll stick with that.
link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129168/
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Technically, the .8/kg/day is supposed to be kilograms of healthy body weight. It doesn't really go way, way up because you're obese. But since you'll have a higher intake, the 10-35% will go up.
Agree with this--OP said he/she wanted to lose 10% of body weight, so I was assuming not obese (I was also assuming a guy, and it seems that was wrong).
Looking at the profile, it seems inconsistent, but if OP is obese that makes a difference to the recommendation. I'd use goal bodyweight or a bodyweight at around 25 BMI, perhaps, as she will have more muscle mass now than at goal, presumably. There are also formula for figuring the amount based on lean body mass.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Technically, the .8/kg/day is supposed to be kilograms of healthy body weight. It doesn't really go way, way up because you're obese. But since you'll have a higher intake, the 10-35% will go up.
Agree with this--OP said he/she wanted to lose 10% of body weight, so I was assuming not obese (I was also assuming a guy, and it seems that was wrong).
Looking at the profile, it seems inconsistent, but if OP is obese that makes a difference to the recommendation. I'd use goal bodyweight or a bodyweight at around 25 BMI, perhaps, as she will have more muscle mass now than at goal, presumably. There are also formula for figuring the amount based on lean body mass.
It's so hard to pick a number. I guess I'm lucky that I'm always low. The answer for me, when it comes to protein questions, is always "More!" 0 -
If your goal is to lose 23 lb (10% of 227), please keep in mind that without significant protein, much of that weight loss is going to be lean muscle mass. Even if you eat enough protein you are going to lose muscle. Thats just the way this works.0
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OP, to be honest, it sounds to me like you have already made up your mind.
1) You say you want to keep more of your lean mass while losing weight / fat
2) You acknowledge that the evidence seems to support getting more protein helps people with that goal
3) But you say you don't want to increase your protein intake for various reasons: vegetarian, personal preference, reasonable enough (plus dubious science that frankly sounds a little pretextual to me, not so cool but whatever, you do you).
To be very honest, the protective role dietary protein plays in lean mass conservation increases in importance 1) the bigger your calorie deficit and 2) the more active you are. That is, if your calorie deficit is very small (and you are losing weight very very slowly) and you are not and have never been terribly active, eating a smidge below the 0.8g/kg bodyweight recommendation would not be utterly disastrous, though you will lose some lean mass. But if your deficit is more than, say, 500 cal / day, or you are at least moderately active, getting at least 0.8g/kg bodyweight is pretty important, and if you skimp on protein you'll pay the price in lean mass.
Bottom line, there's a trade-off. You don't have to increase your protein intake -- you won't die as a result -- but if you don't, you DO have to accept that eating around 40g of protein per day may hold you back from optimizing your body composition as you eat at a calorie deficit. It'll cost you something. Period. Wishful thinking and cherry-picking studies or advice won't change that. I'd recommend you consider your priorities and choose accordingly. Maybe your eating preferences are more important than your body composition goals, and that would be perfectly fine but you would need to make that choice actively and with your eyes open.
FWIW I personally don't supplement with protein powders, but I do get 30-50 g of protein every day just from greek yogurt (love that stuff and I eat a lot of it). I'm very very active though, so I need more than the 0.8g / kg bodyweight recommendation: I go for more like 1.5 g / kg. Manage it with real food, and while I'm an omnivore more of my protein comes from dairy and whole grains than meat. It's mostly a matter of careful planning and strategizing many of my food choices based on protein::calorie ratios. Lots of dairy works well for me, and I eat a lot of higher-protein / low-calorie veggies like spinach and mushrooms. And I tend to eat beans a lot in place of lower-protein starches like pasta or rice (not so much in place of meat). Even when I was cutting aggressively I tended to actively avoid many dieters' low calorie substitutions if they have poor protein::calorie ratios (e.g. almond milk instead of real milk: NOPE, not enough protein for those calories to meet my goals).
Final note: if the primary reason you want to protect your lean mass is ultimately about looks (maybe it's not, but I'm getting the vibe this is very important to you based on some of your side comments), diet alone won't get you there. There's no magical number for the protein levels in your diet that can take the place of resistance-based exercise. You haven't mentioned your exercise regimen, but if you're not planning to make resistance-based exercise part of your plan, this whole conversation is really pretty moot.0 -
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The cdc recommends about 46g for women, 56g for men.0
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That's based on averages and the .8 g/kg minimum. It doesn't address the issue of maintaining muscle while on a deficit.0
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bertobelle77 wrote: »I am currently 227lbs and 40% body fat. I would like to lose 10% of my body fat while keeping as much of my lean muscle as possible. I am vegetarian and so my protein consumption tends to be on the low side, today I got about 40g of protein for example.
I know some sources say to eat huge amounts of protein but I am really not convinced that is healthy long term for example this study http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/711217 links high protein diets to dementia.
I do agree high protein makes people look good and makes them strong but it also seems to be negative long term for health.
In addition I like to eat a high antioxident diet with lots of fresh vegetables and some fruits, nuts etc because that is good for my skin.
What is the minimum amount of protein I can eat to meet my goals of losing fat and keeping my mucle as much as possible?
Thank you!
Note: I am a vegetarian but I do eat eggs and milk.
My macros are 80-10-10 (not the diet). 80% Carbs - 10% Protein - 10% Fat This works for me, and I feel really good. You can always try going up and down with the numbers until you find a ratio that works for you. I find it is easier to fulfill my protein than it is my fat. Some days I am a little over 10% in fats and/or proteins, sometimes less. You honestly don't need a lot of protein. Unless, if you are into bodybuilding or fitness modeling or whatever requires a lot of muscle, you don't need it. What you need are the essential amino acids and you can get all of those from plant-based foods. Give your kidneys and liver a break and they will thank you later, in your older years.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »That's based on averages and the .8 g/kg minimum. It doesn't address the issue of maintaining muscle while on a deficit.
+10 -
Aim for 100/day- the math works out for averages if you want to get into the nitty gritty of it- but if you want a general ball park- aim for around 100 a day and you'll be fine.
You won't always hit it- but that's okay too.0 -
I would not think about it as being a "high protein" style. It's about getting the necessary macronutrients your body needs while maintaining a certain amount of calories a day. You need a certain amount of protein a day to preserve your muscle mass. When your calorie intake is less than your calories burned a day; you not only lose fat, but you lose muscle mass as well. Your body needs protein to keep repairing itself daily, the fat to keep your organs protected, and the carbs for energy and to keep things moving (because your body can't use the protein to repair without the energy from the carbs). The best way to determine how much protein you need is to follow a calculation that MyFitnessPal already gives you when you enter your information, but for a more in-depth look follow:
Your goals will determine your macros. So it's not necessarily always about eating a significantly high amount of protein for the long-term, but getting to where you want to be, and adjusting your macros.
Do you want to lose fat? Then your carbs will need to be lower than your protein and fat intake.
Do you want to maintain your weight and figure? Then your carbs should be eaten at a moderate amount.
Do you want to bulk up? Then carbs will cover most of your plate.
First, find out how many calories you need a day based on a TDEE method. http://iifym.com/tdee-calculator/
Next you determine your macronutrients: Understand that 4 calories = 1 gram of protein, 4 calories = 1 gram of carbs, & 9 calories = 1 gram of fat. Your body needs about .8 - 1 grams of protein per each pound of body weight you have (and your goals). If you want to decrease your body fat, I would go with the 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. So you said you are 227 lbs, you would want 227 grams of protein, which is 908 calories a day. Fat, as females should be at about 30% (males at 25% and never drop below 15%), of your calorie intake in a day, so take your TDEE calories multiply by .3 and divide by 9 to get your grams of fat a day to meet. Then take your TDEE calories, minus the calories for protein and fat and what you have left over is your carbs, divide by 4 to know how many grams a day of carbs you should intake.
Example: My TDEE based on me being 5'0" 152 lbs female working out 3-5 times a week wanting to lose .5 - 1 lb a week makes my calories at 1600 a day. This means, if I want to lose fat, I need 152 grams of protein a day, which is about 608 calories, 30% of 1600 is 480 calories of fat for 53 grams of fat a day, 1600-608-480 = 512 calories of carbs or 128 grams of carbs a day.
Read more: http://www.bodyrock.tv/posts/calculate-macros-part-2
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I would not think about it as being a "high protein" style. It's about getting the necessary macronutrients your body needs while maintaining a certain amount of calories a day. You need a certain amount of protein a day to preserve your muscle mass. When your calorie intake is less than your calories burned a day; you not only lose fat, but you lose muscle mass as well. Your body needs protein to keep repairing itself daily, the fat to keep your organs protected, and the carbs for energy and to keep things moving (because your body can't use the protein to repair without the energy from the carbs). The best way to determine how much protein you need is to follow a calculation that MyFitnessPal already gives you when you enter your information, but for a more in-depth look follow:
You do need a certain amount of protein/day depending on goals, and there seem to be benefits from more protein beyond the minimum required for health if the goals are to maintain muscle mass in a deficit, but it doesn't have a thing to do with percentage of your diet.Do you want to lose fat? Then your carbs will need to be lower than your protein and fat intake.
Do you want to maintain your weight and figure? Then your carbs should be eaten at a moderate amount.
Do you want to bulk up? Then carbs will cover most of your plate.
This isn't true. You can do all of those things at a wide range of carb percentages.If you want to decrease your body fat, I would go with the 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight.
There is no benefit to this much protein unless someone just likes eating this way, which OP said she does not. It's particularly ill-suited for someone with lots of weight to lose, like OP.0 -
I would not think about it as being a "high protein" style. It's about getting the necessary macronutrients your body needs while maintaining a certain amount of calories a day. You need a certain amount of protein a day to preserve your muscle mass. When your calorie intake is less than your calories burned a day; you not only lose fat, but you lose muscle mass as well. Your body needs protein to keep repairing itself daily, the fat to keep your organs protected, and the carbs for energy and to keep things moving (because your body can't use the protein to repair without the energy from the carbs). The best way to determine how much protein you need is to follow a calculation that MyFitnessPal already gives you when you enter your information, but for a more in-depth look follow:
Your goals will determine your macros. So it's not necessarily always about eating a significantly high amount of protein for the long-term, but getting to where you want to be, and adjusting your macros.
Do you want to lose fat? Then your carbs will need to be lower than your protein and fat intake.
Do you want to maintain your weight and figure? Then your carbs should be eaten at a moderate amount.
Do you want to bulk up? Then carbs will cover most of your plate.
First, find out how many calories you need a day based on a TDEE method. http://iifym.com/tdee-calculator/
Next you determine your macronutrients: Understand that 4 calories = 1 gram of protein, 4 calories = 1 gram of carbs, & 9 calories = 1 gram of fat. Your body needs about .8 - 1 grams of protein per each pound of body weight you have (and your goals). If you want to decrease your body fat, I would go with the 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight. So you said you are 227 lbs, you would want 227 grams of protein, which is 908 calories a day. Fat, as females should be at about 30% (males at 25% and never drop below 15%), of your calorie intake in a day, so take your TDEE calories multiply by .3 and divide by 9 to get your grams of fat a day to meet. Then take your TDEE calories, minus the calories for protein and fat and what you have left over is your carbs, divide by 4 to know how many grams a day of carbs you should intake.
Example: My TDEE based on me being 5'0" 152 lbs female working out 3-5 times a week wanting to lose .5 - 1 lb a week makes my calories at 1600 a day. This means, if I want to lose fat, I need 152 grams of protein a day, which is about 608 calories, 30% of 1600 is 480 calories of fat for 53 grams of fat a day, 1600-608-480 = 512 calories of carbs or 128 grams of carbs a day.
Read more: http://www.bodyrock.tv/posts/calculate-macros-part-2
Protein levels are set based on per lb of lean body mass not weight. If the OP's body fat is accurate, then she should be eating around 135g of protein. Fat intake should be .35g to .6g per lb of lean body mass, or 47g+ of fat and carbs can be the rest.
And everything in the bold is completely false.
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I eat a high carb - very, very high carb - diet. I still lose weight. I don't recommend my diet to...well, to anyone. If I didn't have to go low-fat, I just wouldn't. I'm not even suggesting that high-carb is good for anyone. But the carbs don't prevent everyone from losing and...
...I have to say it, in all caps this time...
FRUITS AND VEGGIES ARE GOOD FOR YOU!!! Edamame is a nutritional powerhouse!!
Sorry about the screaming. There's just so much sugar and carb talk lately with people giving up fruits and veggies. I even met someone IRL who had given up fruit.
Eat your fruits and veggies, people.0 -
Those of us who have the best success with fat loss and maintaining focus on protein and veggies the most, and just enough healthy fat and carbs for energy and health.
Since you eat eggs and milk I believe Egg Whites and Greek Yogurt are going to be your best bang for calories/protein ratio.
I'm only 5 tall foot and I try to get 100 grams of protein a day (usually more), I've found it keeps me feeling better and less hungry and that makes it successful. Most others who stay fit will feel the same way.0
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