New article against organic food...
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I buy organic apples because the couples times I bought conventional ones, they had a bitter aftertaste (always pink ladies). Otherwise, I don't bother...0
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.
Right, the peaches I get from the farm stand blow away the peaches I no longer buy from the supermarket.
And I've never had a banana in the US as good as the bananas I had in Costa Rica.
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I don't generally buy organic, but can the non-organic people either cite their sources or stop making unverified claims? Do you have anything to offer besides sneering at hipsters?0
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kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »Smaller and less juicy among other things, most blind taste tests end up with non-organic veggies and fruit being chosen as tasting better.
Can you be specific about the tests? A link or some type of reference? I've only seen a couple of taste tests between organic and non-organic and they showed no significant difference in taste or nutritrient content.
I don't have time for that, I've also seen experiments where they label the organic as"non-Organic" and non-Organic as "organic" and people choose the "organic"(so actually non-organic) 100% of the time as being better tasting. That tells me that it's mostly a mental thing.
Most people don't eat organic because of taste. That's more a reason to eat local because it's fresher.
Right, the peaches I get from the farm stand blow away the peaches I no longer buy from the supermarket.
And I've never had a banana in the US as good as the bananas I had in Costa Rica.
You've had a good banana? O.o This sounds mythical. Like a unicorn. :P0 -
I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/fletcher/programs/xmas/pesticides/labels/Roundup-orig-max-msds.pdf
Roundup...practically non-toxic to mammals...many chemicals on the "approved" organic list will be FAR more toxic than this, but not knowing what the chemicals are actually used for, it's hard to give a direct comparison, use for use.
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I've buying buying potatoes organic or local (we don't have huge farms like this here) since I read this article:
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/25/magazine/playing-god-in-the-garden.html
...Danny Forsyth laid out the dismal economics of potato farming for me one sweltering morning at the coffee shop in downtown Jerome, Idaho. Forsyth, 60, is a slight blue-eyed man with a small gray ponytail; he farms 3,000 acres of potatoes, corn and wheat, and he spoke about agricultural chemicals like a man desperate to kick a bad habit. ”None of us would use them if we had any choice,” he said glumly.
I asked him to walk me through a season’s regimen. It typically begins early in the spring with a soil fumigant; to control nematodes, many potato farmers douse their fields with a chemical toxic enough to kill every trace of microbial life in the soil. Then, at planting, a systemic insecticide (like Thimet) is applied to the soil; this will be absorbed by the young seedlings and, for several weeks, will kill any insect that eats their leaves. After planting, Forsyth puts down an herbicide — Sencor or Eptam — to ”clean” his field of all weeds. When the potato seedlings are six inches tall, an herbicide may be sprayed a second time to control weeds.
Idaho farmers like Forsyth farm in vast circles defined by the rotation of a pivot irrigation system, typically 135 acres to a circle; I’d seen them from 30,000 feet flying in, a grid of verdant green coins pressed into a desert of scrubby brown. Pesticides and fertilizers are simply added to the irrigation system, which on Forsyth’s farm draws most of its water from the nearby Snake River. Along with their water, Forsyth’s potatoes may receive 10 applications of chemical fertilizer during the growing season. Just before the rows close — when the leaves of one row of plants meet those of the next — he begins spraying Bravo, a fungicide, to control late blight, one of the biggest threats to the potato crop. (Late blight, which caused the Irish potato famine, is an airborne fungus that turns stored potatoes into rotting mush.) Blight is such a serious problem that the E.P.A. currently allows farmers to spray powerful fungicides that haven’t passed the usual approval process. Forsyth’s potatoes will receive eight applications of fungicide.
Twice each summer, Forsyth hires a crop duster to spray for aphids. Aphids are harmless in themselves, but they transmit the leafroll virus, which in Russet Burbank potatoes causes net necrosis, a brown spotting that will cause a processor to reject a whole crop. It happened to Forsyth last year. ”I lost 80,000 bags” — they’re a hundred pounds each — ”to net necrosis,” he said. ”Instead of getting $4.95 a bag, I had to take $2 a bag from the dehydrator, and I was lucky to get that.” Net necrosis is a purely cosmetic defect; yet because big buyers like McDonald’s believe (with good reason) that we don’t like to see brown spots in our fries, farmers like Danny Forsyth must spray their fields with some of the most toxic chemicals in use, including an organophosphate called Monitor*.
”Monitor is a deadly chemical,” Forsyth said. ”I won’t go into a field for four or five days after it’s been sprayed — even to fix a broken pivot.” That is, he would sooner lose a whole circle to drought than expose himself or an employee to Monitor, which has been found to cause neurological damage.
Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/25/magazine/playing-god-in-the-garden.html
*Monitor has since been withdrawn from the market.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.
wouldn't it be awesome if you could make a plant that produces this stuff on its own?0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.
wouldn't it be awesome if you could make a plant that produces this stuff on its own?
*giggles* But... But... then we can't wash it off... ya know, for the handful of people that actually wash their fruit... rather than simply rinse it.
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kshama2001 wrote: »I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.
wouldn't it be awesome if you could make a plant that produces this stuff on its own?
Perhaps if I were able to do a better job than Monsanto and Syngenta.
Links to the studies within the articles.
10 Reasons to Say No to Genetically Engineered Crops and Food
2. Insect Resistance
Genetically Engineered (GE) corn is infused with a toxin that is derived from the biological insecticide Baccilus thurengiensis (Bt). Bt is naturally occurring soil microbe that the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has generally considered to be among one of the safer pesticides. When used in its naturally occurring form, it can play an important part in responsible pest management practices. However, when incorporated into crops it creates a host of issues that lead to insect resistance; undermining the responsible use of this least-toxic pesticide in the field. Though reports of insect resistance in corn have been observed since the late 2000s, a study published in the journal PLoS One in 2011 provided documented proof of this occurring. In 2013, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency officially announced that “corn rootworm may not be completely controlled by Cry3Bb1 in certain parts of the Corn Belt.”
Genetically Engineered Foods May Cause Rising Food Allergies—Genetically Engineered Corn
The Toxin In GM Plants Is More Dangerous Than Natural Sprays
The Bt-toxin produced in GM crops is “vastly different from the bacterial [Bt-toxins] used in organic and traditional farming and forestry.”[14] First of all, GM plants produce about 3,000-5,000 times the amount of toxin as the sprays. And the spray form is broken down within a few days to two weeks by sunlight,[15] high temperatures, or substances on the leaves of plants; and it can be “washed from leaves into the soil by rainfall,”[16] or rinsed by consumers. A Bt producing GM plant, on the other hand, continuously produces the toxin in every cell where it does not dissipate by weather and cannot be washed off.
The natural toxic produced in bacteria is inactive until it gets inside the alkaline digestive tract of an insect. Once inside, a “safety catch” is removed and the Bt becomes toxic. But scientists change the sequence the Bt gene before inserting it into GM plants. The Bt toxin it produces usually comes without the safety catch. The plant-produced Bt toxin is always active and more likely to trigger an immune response than the natural variety.[17]0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Escloflowne wrote: »"Organic" is just another way to sell the same thing to stupid people at a higher price...most of the time "organic" is inferior, it's also not sustainable for our population. Just dumb hipsters trying to be "cool"
Inferior in what way?
Many organic labeled produce uses "organic" pesticides that are less effective and more toxic than modern options.
I've seen this purported but never a citation. Got one?
Read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Organic-Gardening-Drawbacks/dp/0881928623/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1438294081&sr=1-1&keywords=the+truth+about+organic+gardening
Renegade Gardener also has an article about it. I can't directly link to it because he uses frames and won't allow direct linking to the article.
http://www.renegadegardener.com/
Go to "Myth of the week" -> Scroll down, click "Myth of the week archive", look for “Organic fruits and vegetables are not sprayed with chemicals.”0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.
wouldn't it be awesome if you could make a plant that produces this stuff on its own?
Plants DO make their own pesticides. Pyrethrins being well known, the best known source being chrysanthemums (although they're produced in varying amounts by other plants as well). Nicotine is another wonderful insecticide.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
I was curious about this also. I wash my vegetables and quite honestly I have never noticed any pesticides being washed down the drain.
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kshama2001 wrote: »I am a backyard ogranic gardener and have used small amounts of BT a few times per growing season for cabbage worms. As it kills pests it is a pesticide, but:
Less Toxic Insecticides
...Microbial insecticides contain microorganisms (viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, or nematodes) or their by-products. Microbial insecticides are especially valuable because their toxicity to nontarget animals and humans is extremely low.
Insecticidal products comprised of a single species of microorganism may be active against a wide variety of insects or group of related insects (such as caterpillars) or they may be effective against only one or a few species. Most are very specific. Since there is such a narrow range of insects killed, they spare the beneficial insects almost entirely.
Bacillus thuringiensis products are the most widely used microbial insecticides in the United States. They are commonly known as Bt. Different subspecies of Bt are effective against different groups of insects or their larvae.
Read more: http://www.clemson.edu/extension/hgic/pests/pesticide/hgic2770.html
BT is acceptable in organic gardening.
wouldn't it be awesome if you could make a plant that produces this stuff on its own?
Plants DO make their own pesticides. Pyrethrins being well known, the best known source being chrysanthemums (although they're produced in varying amounts by other plants as well). Nicotine is another wonderful insecticide.
yeah, pyrethroids are very popular in consumer insecticides.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
I was curious about this also. I wash my vegetables and quite honestly I have never noticed any pesticides being washed down the drain.
Reading is fundamental. Clearly you have failed to do such on this thread.
I am left stand here with an utter lack of surprise that you are unaware of what various fruit looks like without pesticides on them.-4 -
Shalaurise wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
I was curious about this also. I wash my vegetables and quite honestly I have never noticed any pesticides being washed down the drain.
Reading is fundamental. Clearly you have failed to do such on this thread.
I am left stand here with an utter lack of surprise that you are unaware of what various fruit looks like without pesticides on them.
Why so nasty...I don't think that I or the other poster said anything ugly or nasty to you. I think we were both just curious as to how you knew how much pesticide that you washed off of your whatever they were fruit.
My reading is fine...been practicing...how are you coming along in your courtesy class. Don't give up...keep trying.
Unlike you I didn't have the privilege of growing up in an orchard...I just lived on a common farm...we were just plain folk.
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Dietary Pesticides (99.99% all natural)
http://www.pnas.org/content/87/19/7777.full.pdf?wptouch_preview_theme=enabled
http://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2015/03/20/myth-busting-are-synthetic-pesticides-used-with-some-gmos-more-dangerous-than-natural-ones/
We're ingesting a ton of pesticides every day (figuratively, it's 1.5 grams apparently), most of it stuff that the plants create themselves or organic, and in thousands of times higher concentrations than the residue from synthetic insecticides that get applied.
Of the naturally occuring insecticides, only a fraction have been tested for safety, and half of those turned up to be carcinogenic to some degree.
The second to last paragraph in the article is very interesting too. In the 60's, a conventionally bred new type of potato had to be pulled from the shelves because its natural insecticides were way too high and apparently no one checked for that beforehand, apparently because natural and stuff.0 -
Shalaurise wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »Shalaurise wrote: »I just bought "certified organic" peacotums (apricot-plum-peach hybrid) two weeks ago. Washed off more pesticides off them than I did anything else I bought at that farmers market...
I'd be curious to know how you know this. How did you measure the amount of pesticides washed off? What pesticides were they?
I was curious about this also. I wash my vegetables and quite honestly I have never noticed any pesticides being washed down the drain.
Reading is fundamental. Clearly you have failed to do such on this thread.
I am left stand here with an utter lack of surprise that you are unaware of what various fruit looks like without pesticides on them.
Why so nasty...I don't think that I or the other poster said anything ugly or nasty to you. I think we were both just curious as to how you knew how much pesticide that you washed off of your whatever they were fruit.
My reading is fine...been practicing...how are you coming along in your courtesy class. Don't give up...keep trying.
Unlike you I didn't have the privilege of growing up in an orchard...I just lived on a common farm...we were just plain folk.
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