So what the heck is clean eating, anyway?

Furbuster wrote: »

@lemurcat12 why do you find it insulting? I'm curious. The word clean is used in lifting I believe? Is it the same for that? I'm not trying to be a smart *kitten* I am genuinely interested in why....

I think saying "I'm a clean eater" or "I eat only clean food" suggests that other food (or other ways to eat) are unclean or dirty. Since we are not really talking about cleanliness, or the purity or sanitary quality of the food, it's a strange word to choose. I dislike it, and don't think it's really related to what I consider important -- trying to eat an overall nutritious, healthy diet. For example, when I ask what clean is people say "not processed," as if giving up all processed food should be a goal. Yeah, I suppose I could make my own yogurt, but why is eating Fage plain or -- as I said before -- smoked salmon or packaged whole wheat pasta or cheese, etc. something I should endeavor to remove from my diet when they are actually foods that help me meet my goals (and IMO make my diet more healthy overall)? What's the benefit of saying "I eat clean" (especially since virtually everyone who says that does too eat processed foods) vs. saying "I try to eat a healthy diet"? Or "I try to focus on nutrient-dense whole foods"? Personally, I would never, ever say I ate "clean," but I care a lot about nutrition, and try to focus on nutrient-dense whole foods, especially vegetables, and I get as much of my meat/eggs/dairy and produce from local farms as I can manage.

To be completely open, though, I never really noticed or minded the term "eating clean" pre-MFP. Here it's ridiculously common for self-proclaimed "clean" eaters to make rude assumptions about how others eat, so I've gotten annoyed by the term and started thinking more about the meaning of the language chosen.

When I hear the term "clean eating" I usually imagine the food pyramid, media articles, eating predominantly vegetables, whole grain, lean meat, fish...etc. Basically things that are naturally rich in nutrients. I don't like to bother with terms though. In most cases "clean eating" and "moderation" are essentially the same thing, except one group defines itself by what they eat more of, and the other defines itself by what they eat less of. One group likes to classify foods into "good" and "bad" and the other likes to classify them into "often" and "sometimes" (or "a lot" and "a little").

I personally define my eating style by what I like to eat (basically I practice "foods I like" way of eating), although I could be comfortably squeezed into either pre-defined group if I describe my diet to someone who likes to classify eating styles. I don't mind using either term to describe my eating style if that gets an idea across better.

Kalikel wrote: »

Ask for clarification, cool. Point out that since 10,000 people have 9,000 definitions, there is no way to know what the word/phrase means, okay.

This is what I do. I rarely get a response.

I also think the question of why choose that term -- or why claim to not eat "processed" foods when you do -- is an interesting one.

I usually don't get an answer to that either.

Furbuster wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

Kalikel wrote: »

Ask for clarification, cool. Point out that since 10,000 people have 9,000 definitions, there is no way to know what the word/phrase means, okay.

This is what I do. I rarely get a response.

I also think the question of why choose that term -- or why claim to not eat "processed" foods when you do -- is an interesting one.

I usually don't get an answer to that either.

I'll answer.

I like the word - to me it encompasses what I try to achieve. I have very set ideas about what I personally consider to be clean foods (as you have said it's mainly wholefood and a traditional way of cooking from scratch). For me it is one word that just covers that.

I don't claim to not eat processed food - I try to cut it out a lot - a difference. When I'm feeling crappy and can't be bothered to cook I may buy a big bag of Doritos or something. I don't dislike these foods I just try not to eat them because I personally believe it's doing me some good to eat 'clean'.

Does that make sense? That's why I asked the insulting question - I couldn't get my head round what was wrong with that. - which you clarified from your own experiences.

Hmm, maybe we can have an actual interesting discussion about this. ;-)

Do you make assumptions about what others eat? I guess one thing that bugs me is that people here seem to think that people who don't eat "clean" eat quite poorly, when really most of us also care about nutrition, but just don't like the term or the ideas that seem to be inherent in it.

And to elaborate on that, what I see as different between "clean eating" and "moderation" are:

(1) Clean eating focuses on "processing" as if that were relevant to nutrition, when it's not necessarily given the wide variety of processed foods. Moderates seem more likely to believe that at least some forms of processing -- like freezing fish or veggies, canning tomatoes, the dairy products I mentioned, etc. -- makes food more available, which is good. If it weren't for "unnatural" things like processing and carting foods in from more southern climates, here in the northern midwest I would not have much produce in many months.

I personally prefer not to eat highly processed foods (what I'd call convenience foods), but to me that's not the be-all about weight loss since I really didn't when I was fat either. I never liked fast food, and always have been someone who likes cooking and is a bit of a food snob (I don't really like eating foods out of packages at all, I don't believe storebought baked goods are anywhere near as tasty as homemade, and I actually get even weirder than that). So I don't see that as a major change I've made or need to work on, and it feels rude to me to claim that how I prefer to eat is inherently "healthier" than how others prefer to eat when really it's just a matter of taste. (Whether people eat healthy or not to me is about their overall diet, not whether they occasionally have a Big Mac, so why claim one way is "clean" and one is not?)

(2) Clean eating seems to focus on the goal being NEVER eating less nutrient-dense foods, whereas I prefer to focus on getting a good overall diet, but don't see a benefit to elimination.

I always find it intriguing when people use the term "clean" without really meaning either of the 2 things that I think distinguish them from moderation folks like me.

Maybe it's that I tend to be overly prone to all-in ways of thinking? When I was really into "natural" eating I strongly considered trying to be as locavore as possible (which is nuts given where I live), made everything I could from scratch for a while (everything, in kind of a nutty way), and somewhat convinced myself that if I did this I could eat whatever I wanted (which is true only in that if I was really strict what I could eat would be limited). Anyway, in addition to not liking the term "clean" I could never say "I eat clean" because it would seem like a lie or hypocritical, since like I said I eat greek yogurt and dried wholewheat pasta and frozen fish and I go to restaurants (with good quality food, I think, but clearly not made by me), etc. I have trouble understanding how some CAN claim to "eat clean" when they include foods that are supposedly not on plan.

That is likely just a different overall way of looking at things (or me being weird, who knows). ;-)

Unfortunately the irritating discussions and assumptions at MFP have caused me to have a really negative reaction and perceive a kind of "I'm better than you" attitude when someone claims to "eat clean," which I probably should try to temper, at least until the person confirms that they have such an attitude.

I assume people are using clean eating to mean a whole foods based diet and let the context of their posts determine the details. I don't find the term confusing or insulting.

nvmomketo wrote: »

Sort of along the lines of Michael Pollen's "Eat food. Mostly Plants. Not too much." With the added caveat of make sure you get enough protein at every meal.

Except that this describes how most of us that the "clean eaters" end up arguing with eat.

Specifically, this describes both "clean eaters" and "moderates."

lemurcat12 wrote: »

nvmomketo wrote: »

Sort of along the lines of Michael Pollen's "Eat food. Mostly Plants. Not too much." With the added caveat of make sure you get enough protein at every meal.

Except that this describes how most of us that the "clean eaters" end up arguing with eat.

Specifically, this describes both "clean eaters" and "moderates."

It happens less now, butt used to happen a lot - people would announce all the foods they ate that others didn't. If you paid attention (and I did), you began to see that a whole lot of those people ate restaurant food, fast food and processed snack food for the majority of their diets. They'd announce that they ate pizza, ribs, chicken wings, cheeseburgers, pasta in cream sauce and barbecue for dinner every week. They had fast food and donuts several times a week, chips and cookies every day, etc. All of it from the same person.

They didn't announce it all at once, but they would announce it in bits. "I eat cheeseburgers every week!" All you had to do was pay attention to the announcements if you wanted to see what comprised the majority of their diet. And most of it was restaurant food, fast food and processed snacks.

I think that's the reason some people got the idea that many in the moderate crowd were eating diets full of less-healthy stuff. They announced it on a regular basis and we paid attention to the announcements.

Then they'd turn around and say, "Why do you assume my diet isn't comprised of mostly healthy food?" Because you announced, over and over, that it wasn't. That's why.

I'm not saying you did that, just that it may be the reason for the "assumptions." They weren't assumptions. It was just reading the announcements.

I am not offended by the words "clean" or "in moderation." But I agree with most that pushing one way of eating on another person who has chosen the other way is rude. If someone wants to have a donut, don't lecture them about the horrors of donuts. Just let them have their donut. It does you no harm.

Kalikel wrote: »

"I eat cheeseburgers every week!"

This is kind of an aside, but since I've noticed you using the burger example quite often: I never eat cheeseburgers, because I do not like cheese on burgers. However, for a while I was eating a burger (or a ground beef patty, no bun, since I only eat one starch course with dinner and prefer potatoes, sweet potatoes, and corn, among other things, to bread). It was ground beef I got from the farm I get most of my meat from. Whether I had the bun or potatoes I had vegetables with it (usually lots of veggies, and a couple of different kinds at least), and I like pickles, onions, and mustard on it. (I dislike mayo and ketchup, although I don't think either is bad for those who like them.)

When people proclaim "burgers" as an example of something that cannot fit in a healthy diet I am puzzled--my burger meals have no more calories than other meals and are reasonably similar in micronutrient profile. So if someone said "burgers" are something you can't eat when dieting, I might have said "why not? I eat them a lot?" (I don't think I actually did, but it's not impossible.)

I know I've said I eat out 1-2 times a week, because I do. It's part of my lifestyle and something I enjoy. (For reasons related to the fact I tend to cook at home a lot and don't like packaged snacks and don't go to dinner at chain restaurants with the calories posted--I'm into food.) I also think the foods I eat out are generally healthy; they just have more calories than cooking at home would, so I had to learn to deal with that.

You have indicated before that you think it's shocking that people consider pizza potentially healthy, but think about a homemade pizza (or one from an Italian restaurant that uses good quality ingredients). Mine have lean protein (when possible) and lots of vegetables and olive oil, a thin crust, a moderate amount of cheese. If I make them at home they have a whole wheat crust. And sure, on rare (very rare) occasions I might splurge on a slice or two of Chicago style from a favorite place, but that's not the only kind of pizza available (and I would never waste calories on Dominos, personally, but again that's just personal taste).

But in any case, I don't think I do crow about how much high cal food I eat (since I don't), and my perception is that most people who say they fit in fast food or ice cream or whatever also say "everyone should eat a balanced, mostly nutrient-dense diet." Yet over and over again this advice has been responded to "so it would be fine to eat only Twinkies" or "only McD's" -- which is an odd thing to think IMO, since who would ever, ever want to?

@lemurcat12

God no - the opposite. I presume (rightly or wrongly) the majority on here care a great deal about health. Isn't that one of the whole reasons for of the website?

Have a look in the clean eater group - seriously. Some very relaxed people and very few politics. Have a quiet peek and see what you think I've been in groups just to read stuff that I don't identify with and it has sometimes been enlightening.