Muscle gaining misconceptions
ninerbuff
Posts: 48,993 Member
Mostly for the newbies:
It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases:
Athlete returning to exercise after a long layoff
Newbie to lifting
Very overweight/obese person participating in a new calorie deficit and progressive resistance weight lifting program
Even then, the gains are minimal and limited.
Seeing muscle definition while on a calorie deficit, while gaining strength lifting is usually viewed by many as gaining muscle. However muscle definition happens because of less fat covering muscle they've never seen, and neuromuscular adaption is the explanation for strength gains.
Building muscle takes quite some time and to keep adding it means adding mass. Adding mass means adding weight and you don't add muscle weight while on a calorie deficit. If this were true, the competitive bodybuilders would just stay lean all year around building muscle...............and they don't. They know they have to eat in surplus to add more mass which is why definition is reduced on their physiques. It also happens to the average gym goer.
Also people who are obese usually have a lot of muscle (especially in the lower body) before beginning to lose weight. Walking around carrying an extra 100lbs or more while in calorie surplus will build muscle. So as one who's obese loses weight, it's NOT uncommon to see some good size muscle underneath that fat. But gaining more muscle on top of that doesn't happen in a calorie deficit. It takes mass to build mass and a calorie deficit is opposite of adding weight.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases:
Athlete returning to exercise after a long layoff
Newbie to lifting
Very overweight/obese person participating in a new calorie deficit and progressive resistance weight lifting program
Even then, the gains are minimal and limited.
Seeing muscle definition while on a calorie deficit, while gaining strength lifting is usually viewed by many as gaining muscle. However muscle definition happens because of less fat covering muscle they've never seen, and neuromuscular adaption is the explanation for strength gains.
Building muscle takes quite some time and to keep adding it means adding mass. Adding mass means adding weight and you don't add muscle weight while on a calorie deficit. If this were true, the competitive bodybuilders would just stay lean all year around building muscle...............and they don't. They know they have to eat in surplus to add more mass which is why definition is reduced on their physiques. It also happens to the average gym goer.
Also people who are obese usually have a lot of muscle (especially in the lower body) before beginning to lose weight. Walking around carrying an extra 100lbs or more while in calorie surplus will build muscle. So as one who's obese loses weight, it's NOT uncommon to see some good size muscle underneath that fat. But gaining more muscle on top of that doesn't happen in a calorie deficit. It takes mass to build mass and a calorie deficit is opposite of adding weight.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4
Replies
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Sorry, but could you clarify this sentence, please.
'Adding mass means adding weight and you don't add muscle weight without a calorie deficit.'
I just don't get the needing a calorie deficit to add muscle weight. I thought it was the reverse.
Am I just reading it wrong?
Cheers, h.0 -
middlehaitch wrote: »Sorry, but could you clarify this sentence, please.
'Adding mass means adding weight and you don't add muscle weight without a calorie deficit.'
I just don't get the needing a calorie deficit to add muscle weight. I thought it was the reverse.
Am I just reading it wrong?
Cheers, h.
I noticed that too. I think it's a typo (at least I hope so or I've been getting it very wrong!) and ninerbuff knows what he's talking about.0 -
Well yes, I agree that he is a knowledgable, reliable person. And that is why I had to ask for a clarification. He knows way more than I ever could so I could have just had this point wrong all this time.
Thanks for the reply.
Cheers, h.0 -
Mostly for the newbies:
It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases:
Athlete returning to exercise after a long layoff
Newbie to lifting
Very overweight/obese person participating in a new calorie deficit and progressive resistance weight lifting program
Even then, the gains are minimal and limited.
Seeing muscle definition while on a calorie deficit, while gaining strength lifting is usually viewed by many as gaining muscle. However muscle definition happens because of less fat covering muscle they've never seen, and neuromuscular adaption is the explanation for strength gains.
Building muscle takes quite some time and to keep adding it means adding mass. Adding mass means adding weight and you don't add muscle weight without a calorie deficit. If this were true, the competitive bodybuilders would just stay lean all year around building muscle...............and they don't. They know they have to eat in surplus to add more mass which is why definition is reduced on their physiques. It also happens to the average gym goer.
Also people who are obese usually have a lot of muscle (especially in the lower body) before beginning to lose weight. Walking around carrying an extra 100lbs or more while in calorie surplus will build muscle. So as one who's obese loses weight, it's NOT uncommon to see some good size muscle underneath that fat. But gaining more muscle on top of that doesn't happen in a calorie deficit. It takes mass to build mass and a calorie deficit is opposite of adding weight.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I find this really interesting. I have been in a deficit for about 2 years and I do feel like I have gained some muscle, especially in my upper body. I know a lot of it is fat loss just showing the muscle but I was thinking that I had gained some mass. When I used to flex absolutely nothing happened!
Reading this I think perhaps it is just muscle definition and not growth - apart from noob gains0 -
You might be seeing some definition appear from fat loss. That's muscle you already had0
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Increase training volume by 25% while eating maintenance. What happens?0
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Typo. Got lost in thought and just edited it. Thanks.middlehaitch wrote: »Sorry, but could you clarify this sentence, please.
'Adding mass means adding weight and you don't add muscle weight without a calorie deficit.'
I just don't get the needing a calorie deficit to add muscle weight. I thought it was the reverse.
Am I just reading it wrong?
Cheers, h.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Still variables. If no progression in resistance, then likely one is increasing their muscular endurance. If one is already low in body (say 15%-20%) then they likely just maintain. If one is still carrying some excess fat, supplying enough protein, and progressively increasing resistance, then recomping is possible. But you normally don't add mass from eating maintenance and adding muscle again usually means adding mass.ScottJTyler wrote: »Increase training volume by 25% while eating maintenance. What happens?
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Thanks for this. Well written.0
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As always...good info. Thanks!0
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Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
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Great post and explanation, Thank you!0
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Yeah, I've seen this is a lot of success stories threads where guys drop from 350 -> 200 and look fantastic.Also people who are obese usually have a lot of muscle (especially in the lower body) before beginning to lose weight. Walking around carrying an extra 100lbs or more while in calorie surplus will build muscle. So as one who's obese loses weight, it's NOT uncommon to see some good size muscle underneath that fat.
*jelly about dat size*
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Still variables. If no progression in resistance, then likely one is increasing their muscular endurance. If one is already low in body (say 15%-20%) then they likely just maintain. If one is still carrying some excess fat, supplying enough protein, and progressively increasing resistance, then recomping is possible. But you normally don't add mass from eating maintenance and adding muscle again usually means adding mass.ScottJTyler wrote: »Increase training volume by 25% while eating maintenance. What happens?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
So if I'm understanding your statement a recomp (without weight gain) at at BF% much less than 15% for a male probably isn't going to happen? I can buy that.0 -
But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Great post.
Perhaps you can consider adding a phrase or two on how lifting during weightloss can help preserve existing muscle. Or perhaps the oposit, about how that muscle (in obese people) gets lost without strength training. Just for completion sake.1 -
Oh how I miss n00b gains. So motivating.0
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But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I disagree but that's OK. Your background and experience is different to mine. My muscle gain or loss has virtually all been to do with training and very little to do with calorie surplus or deficit. I've lost muscle in a surplus and gained it in a deficit. Even lost and gained muscle at the same time.
Again though you are using calorie deficit as a catch-all term. We both know (I hope) there is a world of difference between small deficits and large deficits over long term. What we probably agree on is the need for good training, appropriate deficit and good nutrition while cutting. I'm just more optimistic about the possible results than you.
The alternative would be for you to provide a link to something that supports your stance - a long term study done on regular everyday people (sedentary non gym goers perhaps?) who are overweight, lose weight slowly, with a good training program and adequate macros and shows they cannot gain significant amounts of muscle. I've never seen one.
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Yes, I've been wondering the same thing.Great post.
Perhaps you can consider adding a phrase or two on how lifting during weightloss can help preserve existing muscle. Or perhaps the oposit, about how that muscle (in obese people) gets lost without strength training. Just for completion sake.
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If were looking at it physiologically, you either are gaining or losing muscle. Most of the time it's just small changes not noticeable on a daily basis if one is in maintenance.
But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I disagree but that's OK. Your background and experience is different to mine. My muscle gain or loss has virtually all been to do with training and very little to do with calorie surplus or deficit. I've lost muscle in a surplus and gained it in a deficit. Even lost and gained muscle at the same time.
Again though you are using calorie deficit as a catch-all term. We both know (I hope) there is a world of difference between small deficits and large deficits over long term. What we probably agree on is the need for good training, appropriate deficit and good nutrition while cutting. I'm just more optimistic about the possible results than you.
The alternative would be for you to provide a link to something that supports your stance - a long term study done on regular everyday people (sedentary non gym goers perhaps?) who are overweight, lose weight slowly, with a good training program and adequate macros and shows they cannot gain significant amounts of muscle. I've never seen one.
I'll look for some study or research for what you mentioned, but when losing tissue (catabolic) I do know that mTOR and other muscle building pathways are disrupted versus when one is being anabolic.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I'm new to lifting weights. I'm not quite sure of something. If I weight train while losing weight that's good as I understand it but when I get to my desired weight then I would have to "eat to gain" in order to build muscle? Is that right? Also been seeing "recomp" a lot. What exactly does that mean? Thank you in advance.0
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Great thread !!0
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Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
It's possible, but in the same vein, I think you're overestimating what the majority of sedentary, undertrained newbs are performing for their strength and muscle building programs. To say They are typically following a suboptimal regimen is being generous. Even those that luck into decent programming are so out of shape that they don't yet have the stamina to put forth maximum effort.
The newbs that come on this board and claim to have gotten so bulky overwhelmingly reveal a training structure that's unlikely to produce any gains at all. Combined with their deficit eating, the issue most likely resides in their own minds.0 -
But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I disagree but that's OK. Your background and experience is different to mine. My muscle gain or loss has virtually all been to do with training and very little to do with calorie surplus or deficit. I've lost muscle in a surplus and gained it in a deficit. Even lost and gained muscle at the same time.
Again though you are using calorie deficit as a catch-all term. We both know (I hope) there is a world of difference between small deficits and large deficits over long term. What we probably agree on is the need for good training, appropriate deficit and good nutrition while cutting. I'm just more optimistic about the possible results than you.
The alternative would be for you to provide a link to something that supports your stance - a long term study done on regular everyday people (sedentary non gym goers perhaps?) who are overweight, lose weight slowly, with a good training program and adequate macros and shows they cannot gain significant amounts of muscle. I've never seen one.
Almost all of the studies I've seen have been on the general population such as untrained college students. It's fairly rare for decent studies to be done with seasoned bodybuilders. I have issues with the methods used in both types of studies, but most of the ones supporting Niner's position will have been performed on the sedentary, untrained subjects that you're referring to.0 -
You pretty much said it. I'll just add that people who rely on diet and just cardio only to lose weight may lose a good amount of muscle along with the fat.Great post.
Perhaps you can consider adding a phrase or two on how lifting during weightloss can help preserve existing muscle. Or perhaps the oposit, about how that muscle (in obese people) gets lost without strength training. Just for completion sake.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Recomp is continuing with a progressive weight lifting regimen at a maintenance if there's still fat to lose, or a slight surplus so one doesn't bulk up too much. Gaining muscle on this program can happen, but it's a long process. It may take months just to put on a pound or so of muscle.alfonsinarosinsky wrote: »I'm new to lifting weights. I'm not quite sure of something. If I weight train while losing weight that's good as I understand it but when I get to my desired weight then I would have to "eat to gain" in order to build muscle? Is that right? Also been seeing "recomp" a lot. What exactly does that mean? Thank you in advance.
And yes if you want to build muscle, you're going to add mass. That does require a surplus.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Catabolism and anabolism are both constantly going on in the body. Pathways don't have on and off switches, they're all just rates that vary.
If were looking at it physiologically, you either are gaining or losing muscle. Most of the time it's just small changes not noticeable on a daily basis if one is in maintenance.
But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I disagree but that's OK. Your background and experience is different to mine. My muscle gain or loss has virtually all been to do with training and very little to do with calorie surplus or deficit. I've lost muscle in a surplus and gained it in a deficit. Even lost and gained muscle at the same time.
Again though you are using calorie deficit as a catch-all term. We both know (I hope) there is a world of difference between small deficits and large deficits over long term. What we probably agree on is the need for good training, appropriate deficit and good nutrition while cutting. I'm just more optimistic about the possible results than you.
The alternative would be for you to provide a link to something that supports your stance - a long term study done on regular everyday people (sedentary non gym goers perhaps?) who are overweight, lose weight slowly, with a good training program and adequate macros and shows they cannot gain significant amounts of muscle. I've never seen one.
I'll look for some study or research for what you mentioned, but when losing tissue (catabolic) I do know that mTOR and other muscle building pathways are disrupted versus when one is being anabolic.
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Touche'. You elaboration on it was more concise.
Catabolism and anabolism are both constantly going on in the body. Pathways don't have on and off switches, they're all just rates that vary.
If were looking at it physiologically, you either are gaining or losing muscle. Most of the time it's just small changes not noticeable on a daily basis if one is in maintenance.
But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I disagree but that's OK. Your background and experience is different to mine. My muscle gain or loss has virtually all been to do with training and very little to do with calorie surplus or deficit. I've lost muscle in a surplus and gained it in a deficit. Even lost and gained muscle at the same time.
Again though you are using calorie deficit as a catch-all term. We both know (I hope) there is a world of difference between small deficits and large deficits over long term. What we probably agree on is the need for good training, appropriate deficit and good nutrition while cutting. I'm just more optimistic about the possible results than you.
The alternative would be for you to provide a link to something that supports your stance - a long term study done on regular everyday people (sedentary non gym goers perhaps?) who are overweight, lose weight slowly, with a good training program and adequate macros and shows they cannot gain significant amounts of muscle. I've never seen one.
I'll look for some study or research for what you mentioned, but when losing tissue (catabolic) I do know that mTOR and other muscle building pathways are disrupted versus when one is being anabolic.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Touche'. You elaboration on it was more concise.
Catabolism and anabolism are both constantly going on in the body. Pathways don't have on and off switches, they're all just rates that vary.
If were looking at it physiologically, you either are gaining or losing muscle. Most of the time it's just small changes not noticeable on a daily basis if one is in maintenance.
But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?
"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.
Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.
That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I disagree but that's OK. Your background and experience is different to mine. My muscle gain or loss has virtually all been to do with training and very little to do with calorie surplus or deficit. I've lost muscle in a surplus and gained it in a deficit. Even lost and gained muscle at the same time.
Again though you are using calorie deficit as a catch-all term. We both know (I hope) there is a world of difference between small deficits and large deficits over long term. What we probably agree on is the need for good training, appropriate deficit and good nutrition while cutting. I'm just more optimistic about the possible results than you.
The alternative would be for you to provide a link to something that supports your stance - a long term study done on regular everyday people (sedentary non gym goers perhaps?) who are overweight, lose weight slowly, with a good training program and adequate macros and shows they cannot gain significant amounts of muscle. I've never seen one.
I'll look for some study or research for what you mentioned, but when losing tissue (catabolic) I do know that mTOR and other muscle building pathways are disrupted versus when one is being anabolic.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
My use of "at the same time" was as vague as your use of "calorie deficit".
Had you asked I would have explained it was two distinct three month periods. Muscle atrophy or hypertrophy isn't just a function of calorie balance as I'm sure you know.
First 3 months.
Major knee injury with leg either immobilised or flapping uselessly in the breeze. 5" loss of quad circumference but at same time very significant tricep and trap growth from the novel training stimulus of going everywhere on crutches. (BTW - novel training stimulus is missing from your list of "few cases".) Major calorie surplus!
Second 3 months.
Surgery, learning to walk again and mostly stair climbing restored 3" to quad size very rapidly. Simultaneously lost most of my newly gained coke bottle shoulders. Small calorie deficit.
Taking away the injury related atrophy/hypertrophy and just using a more relevant example:
In my fifties when cutting everything indicated that I lose muscle mass at 1lb/week deficit but can gain small amounts of muscle at 1lb/month - somewhere in that range was my personal tipping point and it definitely wasn't TDEE. In my twenties those numbers would have been very different as I was genetically gifted compared to my peer group - that's another of the "few cases" missing.
My major objection to your OP is turning generalisations into absolutes. That leads to the uneducated parroting trite phrases such as "you can't gain muscle in a deficit".
I'm sure no-one would really believe that someone with a TDEE of 3000 per day can:
Gain muscle at 3001
Recomp at 3000 (unless very lean)
Impossible to gain muscle at 2999
That's obviously taking it to ludicrous extremes but that's what making absolute statements does.
Regards.
Certified.
Black belt in Origami.
Been keeping fit for 40 years and have studied Shibari enthusiastically.
1 -
... My major objection to your OP is turning generalisations into absolutes. That leads to the uneducated parroting trite phrases such as "you can't gain muscle in a deficit".
I'm sure no-one would really believe that someone with a TDEE of 3000 per day can:
Gain muscle at 3001
Recomp at 3000 (unless very lean)
Impossible to gain muscle at 2999
That's obviously taking it to ludicrous extremes but that's what making absolute statements does.
Regards.
Certified.
Black belt in Origami.
Been keeping fit for 40 years and have studied Shibari enthusiastically.
Thank you.0
This discussion has been closed.
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