Muscle gaining misconceptions

deluxmary2000

This has been one of the saddest things for me to learn as a newbie. I started lifting while wanting to lose 20 pregnancy lbs. I feel like if I eat a deficit, my strength goes to hell, and if I eat at or above maintenance, I get stronger but stay fat

ninerbuff

deluxmary2000 wrote: »

This has been one of the saddest things for me to learn as a newbie. I started lifting while wanting to lose 20 pregnancy lbs. I feel like if I eat a deficit, my strength goes to hell, and if I eat at or above maintenance, I get stronger but stay fat

It happens to professional athletes as well. Don't feel bad. Just try to be the strongest you can at 20lbs less weight.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

stevencloser

sijomial wrote: »

ninerbuff wrote: »

sijomial wrote: »

Think you are underestimating quite how low many people's start point is and in my opinion this statement is over-stated - "It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases."
Calorie deficit is very vague too - 50, 100, 500, 1000 a day?

"Few cases" applies to a huge slice of the population who are undertrained or sedentary and also carrying around a massive energy store.

Strength/weight training is such a minority pursuit that there are loads of people with the potential to make muscle gains as long as they don't go for an excessive calorie deficit and train appropriately. Trying to project what bodybuilders have to do to make incremental gains when they are already fully trained and lean to the general under-trained and fat population is misleading.

That people mistake strength gains and improvements in definition for actual muscle growth is well known but the rest is a bit exagerated in my view.

But it doesn't just apply to bodybuilders. In general, this applies to regular population. As I mentioned IF there is room for someone to lose excessive fat, then there's a possibility to still gain some muscle even while in a calorie deficit, however someone with not much to lose at all, at deficit and trying to add say 10lbs of muscle ISN'T going to do it on a calorie deficit. Enlighten me if you can link me to something that supports that.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

I disagree but that's OK. Your background and experience is different to mine. My muscle gain or loss has virtually all been to do with training and very little to do with calorie surplus or deficit. I've lost muscle in a surplus and gained it in a deficit. Even lost and gained muscle at the same time.

Again though you are using calorie deficit as a catch-all term. We both know (I hope) there is a world of difference between small deficits and large deficits over long term. What we probably agree on is the need for good training, appropriate deficit and good nutrition while cutting. I'm just more optimistic about the possible results than you.

The alternative would be for you to provide a link to something that supports your stance - a long term study done on regular everyday people (sedentary non gym goers perhaps?) who are overweight, lose weight slowly, with a good training program and adequate macros and shows they cannot gain significant amounts of muscle. I've never seen one.

How though? Losing muscle at a surplus I can understand if you're not training + having low protein intake. If your protein is fine though there shouldn't be any reason for your body to lose it. (N=1 study, a good friend of mine hasn't been training for I don't even know how long, at least a year and he hasn't lost any noticable amount of muscle in the time, just gotten a bit more bacon on his ribs)
But gaining muscle at a deficit would increase your deficit even further which seems to go against what your body would be prioritizing in a deficit.
I don't think you're confusing strength gains with muscle gains either.

jemhh

deluxmary2000 wrote: »

This has been one of the saddest things for me to learn as a newbie. I started lifting while wanting to lose 20 pregnancy lbs. I feel like if I eat a deficit, my strength goes to hell, and if I eat at or above maintenance, I get stronger but stay fat

I find that frustrating too. I recently decided to cut calories again and strength loss was something I was dreading. Then I hurt my back and ended up greatly reducing the weight on several exercises as a result. It stinks having had to reduce the weight but working my way back up is reminiscent of that newbie strength gain phase and it's making eating in a deficit more tolerable. (Though I still don't recommend injuring yourself to recapture those moments )

ninerbuff

I think what's dishearting is losing strength as you age. After age 45, I've noticed year by year a little less strength than what I did the previous year. I'm still in much much better shape and stronger (relative) than most males in my age group, but the losses can sometimes be disappointing. But hey, that's how it goes and I just comply. I want to go into my later years physically active rather than getting injured trying to attepmt a lift I could do 5 years ago just for ego's sake.

A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

lessismoreohio

This is helpful; thank you.

middlehaitch

Going a little off topic, but staying within the bounds the conversation has strayed;

Ninerbuff could you expand on the muscle loss through ageing theme, and what to expect.

Cheers, h.

Just as a bit of background info:

Me ( see avatar), I am 62, 5'1, 100-105 lb. maintained for 6+years (1200-1450 cal) and am more interested in functional fitness and retaining functional strength, as opposed to having the body a 30yr old could attain through heavy lifting.

I cut back on structured exercise during the summer as I am very active, and do nerdfitness plus the basic compound moves using hand weights, aqua fit, and Zumba in the winter. I am find this routine helps with strength, flexibility, and balance as well as keeping the cardio aspect shuffling along.

Feedback on ageing would be appreciated. If you feel you would prefer answering this in a new thread that is ok.
h,

SueInAz

deluxmary2000 wrote: »

This has been one of the saddest things for me to learn as a newbie. I started lifting while wanting to lose 20 pregnancy lbs. I feel like if I eat a deficit, my strength goes to hell, and if I eat at or above maintenance, I get stronger but stay fat

Strength isn't as much of the issue, at least not for me, as maintaining muscle mass. Then again, I'm not participating in any contests of strength and I can carry my own boxes and open my own damn pickle jar so I'm satisfied. At 49, going on 50, I've come to realize that muscle is something I need to ensure I keep. I'm luckier than many because I have always built muscle and gained strength fairly easily for a woman. A few months at about 200 calories over maintenance per day and I've put on a few extra pounds of muscle. I'm now working my way toward a lower body fat percentage, which is not as much fun, but I'm holding my ground in the strength department and even added a little here and there.

JoRocka

middlehaitch wrote: »

Going a little off topic, but staying within the bounds the conversation has strayed;

Ninerbuff could you expand on the muscle loss through ageing theme, and what to expect.

Cheers, h.

Just as a bit of background info:

Me ( see avatar), I am 62, 5'1, 100-105 lb. maintained for 6+years (1200-1450 cal) and am more interested in functional fitness and retaining functional strength, as opposed to having the body a 30yr old could attain through heavy lifting.

I cut back on structured exercise during the summer as I am very active, and do nerdfitness plus the basic compound moves using hand weights, aqua fit, and Zumba in the winter. I am find this routine helps with strength, flexibility, and balance as well as keeping the cardio aspect shuffling along.

Feedback on ageing would be appreciated. If you feel you would prefer answering this in a new thread that is ok.
h,

you're body ages- everything ages- and you cannot just get consistently stronger- it's just not going to happen.

As long as you continue to train the damage will be as minimal as it can be. But just like your eye sight goes down hill- so does everything else. But I mean hell- what's that woman's name- she's 77 and she competes in powerlifting comps.

As long as you keep up the training and treat your body well and don't run it into the ground- it'll continue to work well for you- even as it dies.

middlehaitch

Thanks Jo,
I am not looking to get consistently stronger, just hold on to what I have for as long as I can. The best way possible.

I did try heavy lifting with a bar, but I found it was pushing me a bit too hard. Hand weight progression is fine, though a little disappointing, just a mental thing wanting to do the bar.

I am definitely in much better shape than I was 6 years ago, (30lb heavier and in mid menopause) when I did nothing.

I rarely post with a question, but thought as this topic had raised the point of natural muscle loss through ageing, I would glean a bit further info on it.

Your feedback, as always, is appreciated.

Cheers, h.

ninerbuff

middlehaitch wrote: »

Going a little off topic, but staying within the bounds the conversation has strayed;

Ninerbuff could you expand on the muscle loss through ageing theme, and what to expect.

Cheers, h.

Just as a bit of background info:

Me ( see avatar), I am 62, 5'1, 100-105 lb. maintained for 6+years (1200-1450 cal) and am more interested in functional fitness and retaining functional strength, as opposed to having the body a 30yr old could attain through heavy lifting.

I cut back on structured exercise during the summer as I am very active, and do nerdfitness plus the basic compound moves using hand weights, aqua fit, and Zumba in the winter. I am find this routine helps with strength, flexibility, and balance as well as keeping the cardio aspect shuffling along.

Feedback on ageing would be appreciated. If you feel you would prefer answering this in a new thread that is ok.
h,

I suck at texting so you'll have to wait till I get home Sunday evening so I can answer better.

middlehaitch

Haha ninerbuff, my son says he could take a nap waiting for me to type out a text.
Thanks for the reply, h.

TrayLo28451

I definitely needed to read this thread tonight, so thank you! I just reached my goal weight (132 lbs / 5'5" / 47 yrs young). My starting weight was 163, so I'm super happy and am trying to accept that I'm fine at 132 (and not obsess with losing more weight). I did not do any weight / strength training during my weight loss time. But now I am starting to work with a trainer to build strength and muscle (I want to tone) as I think I'm "skinny fat" (not loose skin from weight loss, but rather "just" fat.) Up to now, I've been consuming 1200 - 1300 calories / day. My trainer said to increase that to 1700 cals per day. To help with that, she said to drink more protein shakes (she recommended dymatize isolate). And obviously, eat more foods high in protein. I know logically that what she is saying and what you posted makes sense about needing to eat more calories to gain muscle if weight training. But, for someone like me it's terrifying to make that leap in calories. I'm going to do it; it just scares the bejeezus out of me.

middlehaitch

TrayLo
Just a little food for thought from my personal experience.
Increase your cals slowly. It makes an easier adjustment both physically and mentally. 50 a week should do you.

I have both protein shakes and bars, I use them if my proteins are particularly low, not as an everyday food substitute. That being said, if I end up doing a weight session earlier in the day then Zumba or aqua fit later a shake( made with water) and a bit of fruit is ideal as I can't exercise well if I eat 3 hr beforehand.

If you are starting to up your exercise, your body will appreciate the extra food.

Cheers, h.

lemmie177

I'm really fascinated by the whole muscle-nutrition balance. Since the body goes through multiple cycles of anabolism and catabolism every day, what is the cut off point for being able to put on muscle over time? What if you provided some muscle growth stimulus and ate at a surplus on one day and then a deficit the next for an overall negative calorie balance? Wouldn't you theoretically be able to build muscle on a deficit over those two days? If not, would it happen if you alternated weeks instead? months (like traditional bulk/cut cycles)? Just been thinking about it after seeing the results of some body recomp contest where the winners attributed their transformations to calorie cycling. They didn't talk specifics, though.

TrayLo28451

middlehaitch wrote: »

TrayLo
Just a little food for thought from my personal experience.
Increase your cals slowly. It makes an easier adjustment both physically and mentally. 50 a week should do you.

I have both protein shakes and bars, I use them if my proteins are particularly low, not as an everyday food substitute. That being said, if I end up doing a weight session earlier in the day then Zumba or aqua fit later a shake( made with water) and a bit of fruit is ideal as I can't exercise well if I eat 3 hr beforehand.

If you are starting to up your exercise, your body will appreciate the extra food.

Cheers, h.

Thank you! I appreciate the feedback!

Pinnacle_IAO

ninerbuff wrote: »

I think what's dishearting is losing strength as you age. After age 45, I've noticed year by year a little less strength than what I did the previous year. I'm still in much much better shape and stronger (relative) than most males in my age group, but the losses can sometimes be disappointing. But hey, that's how it goes and I just comply. I want to go into my later years physically active rather than getting injured trying to attepmt a lift I could do 5 years ago just for ego's sake.

My strongman uncle was lifting very heavy into his late 50's but warned me to stop now before I ended up like him. I did as he advised!
He's is now in his 70's barely able to raise his arms laterally and is afflicted with arthritis is every joint.
My bench, deadlift and squat is light compared to how I maxed out years before.

My uncle said he was always trying to compete with his younger self. Don't do it!

jstyles49

Unfortunately, that's the catch 22 I'm currently in. I wanted to lose 37 pounds and so far I'm down about 20. I work out three days a week minimum, walk 5 miles twice a week and only eat about 1600 calories daily, but I also wanted to gain muscle. I figured after I take off the next 17 pounds I would increase my calorie and protein intake so I can gain muscle.

SoCalSwimmerDude

In an effort to simplify and clarify, I think a few in this thread have actually made it more complicated then it needs to be by arguing what seems to be semantics.

To truly simplify: Eating at a large deficit won't grow muscle no matter how hard you try. However, it is not impossible to grow muscle at a slight deficit should various other nutritional and exercise factors be precise.

I understand the frustration from those who put so much effort into gaining muscle because of the following scenario we see play out on MFP frequently:

Comment 1: "I've been exercising and eating right, but I'm gaining weight!"
Response to comment: "Oh, don't worry hunny! You've just gained a bit of muscle!"

The reality is that... no hunny, you haven't gained any muscle.

To simplify further, if you're at a deficit with a decent amount of weight to lose, just have a blended workout of cardio and strength and shred the fat. Once you get at or close to your goal weight then start strength training more seriously if you want to gain muscle.

lemmie177

TheFranLover wrote: »

In an effort to simplify and clarify, I think a few in this thread have actually made it more complicated then it needs to be by arguing what seems to be semantics.

To truly simplify: Eating at a large deficit won't grow muscle no matter how hard you try. However, it is not impossible to grow muscle at a slight deficit should various other nutritional and exercise factors be precise.

I understand the frustration from those who put so much effort into gaining muscle because of the following scenario we see play out on MFP frequently:

Comment 1: "I've been exercising and eating right, but I'm gaining weight!"
Response to comment: "Oh, don't worry hunny! You've just gained a bit of muscle!"

The reality is that... no hunny, you haven't gained any muscle.

To simplify further, if you're at a deficit with a decent amount of weight to lose, just have a blended workout of cardio and strength and shred the fat. Once you get at or close to your goal weight then start strength training more seriously if you want to gain muscle.

Well, here's how I see it:

A good portion of people reading a simplified post on gaining muscle in a deficit will be in exception case #2 "Newbie to lifting". And, depending on your starting point, newbie gains can be quite significant and last for months. So, I find the original post to be unnecessarily discouraging. The possibility that people will read "can't gain muscle in a calorie deficit" and stop (or never start) weight training is there and its incredibly sad. It's almost criminal not to include the fact that weight training in a deficit preserves lean body mass.