Muscle gaining misconceptions
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Aging is inevitable. While there are some ways to slow the process, there's only so much we can do scientifically.middlehaitch wrote: »Going a little off topic, but staying within the bounds the conversation has strayed;
Ninerbuff could you expand on the muscle loss through ageing theme, and what to expect.
Cheers, h.
Just as a bit of background info:
Me ( see avatar), I am 62, 5'1, 100-105 lb. maintained for 6+years (1200-1450 cal) and am more interested in functional fitness and retaining functional strength, as opposed to having the body a 30yr old could attain through heavy lifting.
I cut back on structured exercise during the summer as I am very active, and do nerdfitness plus the basic compound moves using hand weights, aqua fit, and Zumba in the winter. I am find this routine helps with strength, flexibility, and balance as well as keeping the cardio aspect shuffling along.
Feedback on ageing would be appreciated. If you feel you would prefer answering this in a new thread that is ok.
h,
Muscle loss happens in aging due to reduced testosterone in the system for both men and women. Inactivity will also help this along. Unless there's HRT going on, this is a normal path that the aging body takes.
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Ninerbuff,
thank you so much for your reply.
I know ageing is inevitable, and I am not a person that thinks they are going to all of a sudden start lifting incredible amounts of weigh to get the body of a 30 yr old who has been lifting for 5 yr.
I think, given my age and activity level, structured and unstructured, I was looking for a bit of guidance/reassurance, from a person whose opinion I have respected on this forum, that what I was doing was enough to at lest maintain my functional strength.
Thanks again, h.0 -
Oh you're doing fine. I have several clients who are well over 60 and the only things we focus on are balance (falling is one of the major issues for seniors), leg strength, core strength and strength in the upper back (due to many slumping as they age). Find a program you can do daily so that atrophy slows and so you can keep physical.middlehaitch wrote: »Ninerbuff,
thank you so much for your reply.
I know ageing is inevitable, and I am not a person that thinks they are going to all of a sudden start lifting incredible amounts of weigh to get the body of a 30 yr old who has been lifting for 5 yr.
I think, given my age and activity level, structured and unstructured, I was looking for a bit of guidance/reassurance, from a person whose opinion I have respected on this forum, that what I was doing was enough to at lest maintain my functional strength.
Thanks again, h.
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TheFranLover wrote: »To truly simplify: Eating at a large deficit won't grow muscle no matter how hard you try. However, it is not impossible to grow muscle at a slight deficit should various other nutritional and exercise factors be precise.
I would agree with this. but I think the general public also grossly over estimates the amount muscle they can continue to build after years of training, in terms of poundage.
like maybe you could grow some in a slight deficit, but its probably going to be like fractions of an ounce... hard to notice in a mirror and basically negligible on a scale
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Thanks again Ninerbuff,
The aqua fit that I started with during menopause, 54yo, was the first exercise class or sport I had ever participated in, and I think it is the one that will carry on until I am very old.
I now throw all kinds of things into the mix, but that is always my constant.
It gives balance, cardio, flexibility, improves posture and includes a little resistance work all in one class with the benefit of being low impact ( for when I get older).
Just got over my dislike of deep water, so swimming is being thrown into the long term mix too! Hooray.
Your time was much appreciated.
Cheers, h.
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Great info. I am pretty new to lifting. At first I wanted to build muscle until I read here that I couldn't do that while on a deficit and losing weight. Now... I still lift but do so with the goal of getting as strong as possible. Love lifting. Just wish I had access to heavier weights.
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Even if you don't have heavier weights, some bodyweight exercises can be utilized. One legged squats, handstand pushups, one arm pushups, etc. if you need resistance without the weights you need.Great info. I am pretty new to lifting. At first I wanted to build muscle until I read here that I couldn't do that while on a deficit and losing weight. Now... I still lift but do so with the goal of getting as strong as possible. Love lifting. Just wish I had access to heavier weights.
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ninerbuff, great info, thank you. I'm just starting a recomp, and age is my biggest concern at 44 (male). Even with optimal conditions, at what rate can I expect to add muscle - if at all?
I've recently been cutting while doing 5x5, but I've heard 5x5 is not a hypertrophy program. Do I need to switch to something else (or just do more reps?)
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It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. So just add reps from 8-12 with the same amount of sets. You'll of course have to adjust the weights too.ninerbuff, great info, thank you. I'm just starting a recomp, and age is my biggest concern at 44 (male). Even with optimal conditions, at what rate can I expect to add muscle - if at all?
I've recently been cutting while doing 5x5, but I've heard 5x5 is not a hypertrophy program. Do I need to switch to something else (or just do more reps?)
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It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. So just add reps from 8-12 with the same amount of sets. You'll of course have to adjust the weights too.ninerbuff, great info, thank you. I'm just starting a recomp, and age is my biggest concern at 44 (male). Even with optimal conditions, at what rate can I expect to add muscle - if at all?
I've recently been cutting while doing 5x5, but I've heard 5x5 is not a hypertrophy program. Do I need to switch to something else (or just do more reps?)
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http://baye.com/myth-of-sarcoplasmic-versus-myofibrillar-hypertrophy/
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So then powerlifters who get stronger but don't gain weight, are putting on muscle? Kinda of an oxymoron according to your article since gaining muscle would mean an increase in weight.
It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. So just add reps from 8-12 with the same amount of sets. You'll of course have to adjust the weights too.ninerbuff, great info, thank you. I'm just starting a recomp, and age is my biggest concern at 44 (male). Even with optimal conditions, at what rate can I expect to add muscle - if at all?
I've recently been cutting while doing 5x5, but I've heard 5x5 is not a hypertrophy program. Do I need to switch to something else (or just do more reps?)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
http://baye.com/myth-of-sarcoplasmic-versus-myofibrillar-hypertrophy/
I'll stick with Journals of Medicine, thanks.
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You can eat resting maintenance calories and alternate a week of hard cardio and a week of lifting
You slowly lose a little fat and then gain a little muscle.
Body fat used as energy does count as
Fuel.
Hard calorie defect and building mass, not so much.
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So then powerlifters who get stronger but don't gain weight, are putting on muscle? Kinda of an oxymoron according to your article since gaining muscle would mean an increase in weight.
It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. So just add reps from 8-12 with the same amount of sets. You'll of course have to adjust the weights too.ninerbuff, great info, thank you. I'm just starting a recomp, and age is my biggest concern at 44 (male). Even with optimal conditions, at what rate can I expect to add muscle - if at all?
I've recently been cutting while doing 5x5, but I've heard 5x5 is not a hypertrophy program. Do I need to switch to something else (or just do more reps?)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
http://baye.com/myth-of-sarcoplasmic-versus-myofibrillar-hypertrophy/
I'll stick with Journals of Medicine, thanks.
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Where did I state that? Your statement was that of a 5x5 not being a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. My link provided provided quotes from Stuart Phillips (a very renowned researcher and PhD) and which said
"Sarcoplasmic vs. Myofibrillar hypertrophy… perhaps you’ve heard those terms and even read information from some guru who says there are different types of ‘hypertrophy’. This is unadulterated garbage and basically anyone who has ever taken a course in muscle physiology, exercise physiology, and knows a little biochemistry would tell you so. The amount of myofibrillar protein in skeletal muscle fibre remains remarkably constant! There are no examples of where a muscle fibre hypertrophies with resistance training and the myofibrillar pool doesn’t grow but the sarcoplasm does! The occasional example of a discordance between hypertrophy and strength gain (for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22518835 (5)) is not, no matter what the pundits think, due to a ‘sarcoplasmic’ hypertrophy in the low-load condition. The obvious explanation is a neuromuscular training-zone specific strength response in the low vs. the high load groups – muscle/exercise physiology 101."
Your statement inferred that a 5x5 program would not induce sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, but adding a few reps magically does? So can you please explain how doing a 5x5 program cannot? I have no idea where the "powerlifters who get stronger but don't gain weight, are putting on muscle?" came from. Nothing in the article I linked made those types of statements from what I read. And all statements mentioned were backed by many research trials and literature including references to Brad Shoenfeld latest research stating the same thing.0 -
They're not mutually exclusive from each other. Of course genetics, use of drugs, and other variables will account for muscle hypertrophy. Some respond differently to training methods versus others when it comes to hypertrophy. But your stating there ISN'T 2 types of hypertrophy?
So then powerlifters who get stronger but don't gain weight, are putting on muscle? Kinda of an oxymoron according to your article since gaining muscle would mean an increase in weight.
It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. So just add reps from 8-12 with the same amount of sets. You'll of course have to adjust the weights too.ninerbuff, great info, thank you. I'm just starting a recomp, and age is my biggest concern at 44 (male). Even with optimal conditions, at what rate can I expect to add muscle - if at all?
I've recently been cutting while doing 5x5, but I've heard 5x5 is not a hypertrophy program. Do I need to switch to something else (or just do more reps?)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
http://baye.com/myth-of-sarcoplasmic-versus-myofibrillar-hypertrophy/
I'll stick with Journals of Medicine, thanks.
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Where did I state that? Your statement was that of a 5x5 not being a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. My link provided provided quotes from Stuart Phillips (a very renowned researcher and PhD) and which said
"Sarcoplasmic vs. Myofibrillar hypertrophy… perhaps you’ve heard those terms and even read information from some guru who says there are different types of ‘hypertrophy’. This is unadulterated garbage and basically anyone who has ever taken a course in muscle physiology, exercise physiology, and knows a little biochemistry would tell you so. The amount of myofibrillar protein in skeletal muscle fibre remains remarkably constant! There are no examples of where a muscle fibre hypertrophies with resistance training and the myofibrillar pool doesn’t grow but the sarcoplasm does! The occasional example of a discordance between hypertrophy and strength gain (for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22518835 (5)) is not, no matter what the pundits think, due to a ‘sarcoplasmic’ hypertrophy in the low-load condition. The obvious explanation is a neuromuscular training-zone specific strength response in the low vs. the high load groups – muscle/exercise physiology 101."
Your statement inferred that a 5x5 program would not induce sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, but adding a few reps magically does? So can you please explain how doing a 5x5 program cannot? I have no idea where the "powerlifters who get stronger but don't gain weight, are putting on muscle?" came from. Nothing in the article I linked made those types of statements from what I read. And all statements mentioned were backed by many research trials and literature including references to Brad Shoenfeld latest research stating the same thing.
Enoka, R.M. (1995). Morphological features and activation patterns of motor units. Journal of Clinical Neurophysiology, 12(6), 538-559.
Fry, A.C. (2004). The role of resistance exercise intensity on muscle fibre adaptations. Sports Medicine, 34(10), 663-679.
Gabriel, D.A., Kamen, G. and Frost, G. (2000). Neural adaptations to resistive exercise: Mechanisms and recommendations for training practices. Sports Medicine, 36(2), 131-149.
Hansen, S., Kvorning, T., Kjaer, M., and Sjogaard, G. (2001). The effect of short-term strength training on human skeletal muscle: the importance of physiologically elevated hormone levels. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, 11(6), 347-354.
Paul, A.C. and Rosenthal, N. (2002). Different modes of hypertrophy in skeletal muscle fibers. The Journal of Cell Biology, 156(4), 751-760.
Proske, U. and Allen, T.J. (2005). Damage to skeletal muscle from eccentric exercise. Sport Science Reviews, 33(2), 98-104.
Schoenfeld, B.J. (2010). The mechanisms of muscle hypertrophy and their application to resistance training. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 24(10), 2857-2872.
Schoenfeld, B. (2011). The use of specialized training techniques to maximize muscle hypertrophy. Strength and Conditioning Journal, 33(4), 60-65.
Willardson, J.M. (2006). A brief review: Factors affecting the length of the rest interval between resistance exercise sets. Journal of Strength Conditioning Research, 20(4), 978-984.
I'm sure we'll continue to disagree. Is it just coincidence that powerlifters and bodybuilders train different rep ranges and have different physiques? I guess that depends on one's point of view.
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They're not mutually exclusive from each other. Of course genetics, use of drugs, and other variables will account for muscle hypertrophy. Some respond differently to training methods versus others when it comes to hypertrophy. But your stating there ISN'T 2 types of hypertrophy?
So then powerlifters who get stronger but don't gain weight, are putting on muscle? Kinda of an oxymoron according to your article since gaining muscle would mean an increase in weight.
It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. So just add reps from 8-12 with the same amount of sets. You'll of course have to adjust the weights too.ninerbuff, great info, thank you. I'm just starting a recomp, and age is my biggest concern at 44 (male). Even with optimal conditions, at what rate can I expect to add muscle - if at all?
I've recently been cutting while doing 5x5, but I've heard 5x5 is not a hypertrophy program. Do I need to switch to something else (or just do more reps?)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
http://baye.com/myth-of-sarcoplasmic-versus-myofibrillar-hypertrophy/
I'll stick with Journals of Medicine, thanks.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Where did I state that? Your statement was that of a 5x5 not being a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program. My link provided provided quotes from Stuart Phillips (a very renowned researcher and PhD) and which said
"Sarcoplasmic vs. Myofibrillar hypertrophy… perhaps you’ve heard those terms and even read information from some guru who says there are different types of ‘hypertrophy’. This is unadulterated garbage and basically anyone who has ever taken a course in muscle physiology, exercise physiology, and knows a little biochemistry would tell you so. The amount of myofibrillar protein in skeletal muscle fibre remains remarkably constant! There are no examples of where a muscle fibre hypertrophies with resistance training and the myofibrillar pool doesn’t grow but the sarcoplasm does! The occasional example of a discordance between hypertrophy and strength gain (for example http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22518835 (5)) is not, no matter what the pundits think, due to a ‘sarcoplasmic’ hypertrophy in the low-load condition. The obvious explanation is a neuromuscular training-zone specific strength response in the low vs. the high load groups – muscle/exercise physiology 101."
Your statement inferred that a 5x5 program would not induce sarcoplasmic hypertrophy, but adding a few reps magically does? So can you please explain how doing a 5x5 program cannot? I have no idea where the "powerlifters who get stronger but don't gain weight, are putting on muscle?" came from. Nothing in the article I linked made those types of statements from what I read. And all statements mentioned were backed by many research trials and literature including references to Brad Shoenfeld latest research stating the same thing.
Enoka, R.M. (1995). Morphological features and activation patterns of motor units. Journal of Clinical Neurophysiology, 12(6), 538-559.
Fry, A.C. (2004). The role of resistance exercise intensity on muscle fibre adaptations. Sports Medicine, 34(10), 663-679.
Gabriel, D.A., Kamen, G. and Frost, G. (2000). Neural adaptations to resistive exercise: Mechanisms and recommendations for training practices. Sports Medicine, 36(2), 131-149.
Hansen, S., Kvorning, T., Kjaer, M., and Sjogaard, G. (2001). The effect of short-term strength training on human skeletal muscle: the importance of physiologically elevated hormone levels. Scandinavian Journal of Medicine & Science in Sports, 11(6), 347-354.
Paul, A.C. and Rosenthal, N. (2002). Different modes of hypertrophy in skeletal muscle fibers. The Journal of Cell Biology, 156(4), 751-760.
Proske, U. and Allen, T.J. (2005). Damage to skeletal muscle from eccentric exercise. Sport Science Reviews, 33(2), 98-104.
Schoenfeld, B.J. (2010). The mechanisms of muscle hypertrophy and their application to resistance training. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 24(10), 2857-2872.
Schoenfeld, B. (2011). The use of specialized training techniques to maximize muscle hypertrophy. Strength and Conditioning Journal, 33(4), 60-65.
Willardson, J.M. (2006). A brief review: Factors affecting the length of the rest interval between resistance exercise sets. Journal of Strength Conditioning Research, 20(4), 978-984.
I'm sure we'll continue to disagree. Is it just coincidence that powerlifters and bodybuilders train different rep ranges and have different physiques? I guess that depends on one's point of view.
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Dude, I have no idea where you are taking what I am saying and coming up with this stuff? Please bold text where I am stating "there ISN'T 2 types of hypertrophy?" (or quote from the article I linked)
All I have ever stated was that your statement of reply to the previous poster metioning a 5x5 program "It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program" was to elucidate further (via the link), because someone out there could easily take that statement as you saying 'you do not experience sarcoplasmic hypertrpohy in a 5x5 program, because its not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program'.0 -
SureDude, I have no idea where you are taking what I am saying and coming up with this stuff? Please bold text where I am stating "there ISN'T 2 types of hypertrophy?" (or quote from the article I linked)cajuntank wrote:"Sarcoplasmic vs. Myofibrillar hypertrophy… perhaps you’ve heard those terms and even read information from some guru who says there are different types of ‘hypertrophy’. This is unadulterated garbage and basically anyone who has ever taken a course in muscle physiology, exercise physiology, and knows a little biochemistry would tell you so.
You're focusing on an absolute then. And there aren't any when it comes to the human body. However there are techniques and programs that are more advantangeous to others when it comes to putting on muscle, especially if you're targeting a specific area. I merely mentioned a technique which I've had success with myself and with clients, and you disagree. I will concede that the whole process isn't fully understood yet and may change with more research.cajuntank wrote:All I have ever stated was that your statement of reply to the previous poster metioning a 5x5 program "It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program" was to elucidate further (via the link), because someone out there could easily take that statement as you saying 'you do not experience sarcoplasmic hypertrpohy in a 5x5 program, because its not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program'.
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Then I think we are getting different "take aways" from the article. I used it just to state that with a 5x5 program, you will experience sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (granted, not as much as lowering weight to a degree, upping reps, recovering faster to do more training...so yes, definitely more optimized programming for that goal). But like mentioned, someone could have taken what you said as meaning that 'it does not because it is not'.
SureDude, I have no idea where you are taking what I am saying and coming up with this stuff? Please bold text where I am stating "there ISN'T 2 types of hypertrophy?" (or quote from the article I linked)cajuntank wrote:"Sarcoplasmic vs. Myofibrillar hypertrophy… perhaps you’ve heard those terms and even read information from some guru who says there are different types of ‘hypertrophy’. This is unadulterated garbage and basically anyone who has ever taken a course in muscle physiology, exercise physiology, and knows a little biochemistry would tell you so.
You're focusing on an absolute then. And there aren't any when it comes to the human body. However there are techniques and programs that are more advantangeous to others when it comes to putting on muscle, especially if you're targeting a specific area. I merely mentioned a technique which I've had success with myself and with clients, and you disagree. I will concede that the whole process isn't fully understood yet and may change with more research.cajuntank wrote:All I have ever stated was that your statement of reply to the previous poster metioning a 5x5 program "It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program" was to elucidate further (via the link), because someone out there could easily take that statement as you saying 'you do not experience sarcoplasmic hypertrpohy in a 5x5 program, because its not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program'.
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I think the most accurate study would have to happen with identical twins while being fed the same, but on different programs of lifting.
Then I think we are getting different "take aways" from the article. I used it just to state that with a 5x5 program, you will experience sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (granted, not as much as lowering weight to a degree, upping reps, recovering faster to do more training...so yes, definitely more optimized programming for that goal). But like mentioned, someone could have taken what you said as meaning that 'it does not because it is not'.
SureDude, I have no idea where you are taking what I am saying and coming up with this stuff? Please bold text where I am stating "there ISN'T 2 types of hypertrophy?" (or quote from the article I linked)cajuntank wrote:"Sarcoplasmic vs. Myofibrillar hypertrophy… perhaps you’ve heard those terms and even read information from some guru who says there are different types of ‘hypertrophy’. This is unadulterated garbage and basically anyone who has ever taken a course in muscle physiology, exercise physiology, and knows a little biochemistry would tell you so.
You're focusing on an absolute then. And there aren't any when it comes to the human body. However there are techniques and programs that are more advantangeous to others when it comes to putting on muscle, especially if you're targeting a specific area. I merely mentioned a technique which I've had success with myself and with clients, and you disagree. I will concede that the whole process isn't fully understood yet and may change with more research.cajuntank wrote:All I have ever stated was that your statement of reply to the previous poster metioning a 5x5 program "It's not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program" was to elucidate further (via the link), because someone out there could easily take that statement as you saying 'you do not experience sarcoplasmic hypertrpohy in a 5x5 program, because its not a sarcoplasmic hypertrophy program'.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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kindrabbit wrote: »Mostly for the newbies:
It's improbable to gain muscle while on a calorie deficit. It CAN happen in a few cases:
Athlete returning to exercise after a long layoff
Newbie to lifting
Very overweight/obese person participating in a new calorie deficit and progressive resistance weight lifting program
Even then, the gains are minimal and limited.
Seeing muscle definition while on a calorie deficit, while gaining strength lifting is usually viewed by many as gaining muscle. However muscle definition happens because of less fat covering muscle they've never seen, and neuromuscular adaption is the explanation for strength gains.
Building muscle takes quite some time and to keep adding it means adding mass. Adding mass means adding weight and you don't add muscle weight without a calorie deficit. If this were true, the competitive bodybuilders would just stay lean all year around building muscle...............and they don't. They know they have to eat in surplus to add more mass which is why definition is reduced on their physiques. It also happens to the average gym goer.
Also people who are obese usually have a lot of muscle (especially in the lower body) before beginning to lose weight. Walking around carrying an extra 100lbs or more while in calorie surplus will build muscle. So as one who's obese loses weight, it's NOT uncommon to see some good size muscle underneath that fat. But gaining more muscle on top of that doesn't happen in a calorie deficit. It takes mass to build mass and a calorie deficit is opposite of adding weight.
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I find this really interesting. I have been in a deficit for about 2 years and I do feel like I have gained some muscle, especially in my upper body. I know a lot of it is fat loss just showing the muscle but I was thinking that I had gained some mass. When I used to flex absolutely nothing happened!
Reading this I think perhaps it is just muscle definition and not growth - apart from noob gains
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So I have a question. I'm trying to lose weight because of all the belly fat I carry so I am in a calorie deficit. But I'm also into mountain biking and when I can't ride I try to do quite a bit of strength training and weight lifting. That way I can be stronger on my bike and also work my upper body since it doesn't get much work while riding. Am I wasting my time with strength training than? I don't care about making my muscles larger just want them stronger. Should I wait until I lose more weight to strength train? After reading this post if feel super confused.0
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