Squats--1/2 way down or butt to ground? See pic
Replies
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MireyGal76 wrote: »hannahkingfitness wrote: »All muscles for toned bum and legs are activated at either *kitten* to grass or 90 degrees however *kitten* to grass is a fast track to ruining your knees meaning exercise and life will be made painful and near impossible as you age.Did you read the Schoenfeld review paper I linked and posted extracts from upthread? Makes for interesting reading...
Also, "as you age": what age range do you have specifically in mind? 30's? 40's? 50's?
Well, here's another reason to limit depth that might, for some people, go along with age, or in the case of women, pregnancy, and is not something people necessarily want to think about - issues with the pelvic floor and various other nether regions. Obviously, this is not something that happens to everyone when they have a baby or reach 50, though, and you would obviously only think about that if it came up. (My pelvic floor is in great shape fwiw but it's been an issue for a friend)
what issues? is this about incontinence? or the uterus falling out? I'm a little in the dark on this. How does a deeper squat impact that particular area?
Yeah, any of those, or eg. nether region prolapse (that is the clinical term. jk, i can't even bring myself to say it) - when people have issues like that, without a strong pelvic floor, going deeper into the squat (esp with heavy weight) exerts that much more pressure onto that area. Apparently. But yeah obviously that is person and situation specific and not something that just happens to everyone with age or pregnancy
But would lowbar squatting to parallel with limit strength type loads produce the same problem in these individuals?0 -
You know one thing that has been overlooked in the 7 pages of this thread? How bada$$ Suzanne Svanevik (girl in picture) is! She is crazy strong and a good example of crossfit for strength.
youtube.com/watch?v=eLZ8Evl4pTk
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MireyGal76 wrote: »hannahkingfitness wrote: »All muscles for toned bum and legs are activated at either *kitten* to grass or 90 degrees however *kitten* to grass is a fast track to ruining your knees meaning exercise and life will be made painful and near impossible as you age.Did you read the Schoenfeld review paper I linked and posted extracts from upthread? Makes for interesting reading...
Also, "as you age": what age range do you have specifically in mind? 30's? 40's? 50's?
Well, here's another reason to limit depth that might, for some people, go along with age, or in the case of women, pregnancy, and is not something people necessarily want to think about - issues with the pelvic floor and various other nether regions. Obviously, this is not something that happens to everyone when they have a baby or reach 50, though, and you would obviously only think about that if it came up. (My pelvic floor is in great shape fwiw but it's been an issue for a friend)
what issues? is this about incontinence? or the uterus falling out? I'm a little in the dark on this. How does a deeper squat impact that particular area?
Yeah, any of those, or eg. nether region prolapse (that is the clinical term. jk, i can't even bring myself to say it) - when people have issues like that, without a strong pelvic floor, going deeper into the squat (esp with heavy weight) exerts that much more pressure onto that area. Apparently. But yeah obviously that is person and situation specific and not something that just happens to everyone with age or pregnancy
But would lowbar squatting to parallel with limit strength type loads produce the same problem in these individuals?
I don't know! I found this though (pdf), which identifies these at-risk populations:
- pregnant women, women who have had a baby, menopausal women, women who've had hysterectomies or any gynecological surgery (that is a lot of women tbh)
- men who've had surgery for prostate cancer and
- elite athletes like runners, gymnasts, and trampolinists
- I guess anyone who's actually had these kinds of issues
and says that some pelvic-floor safe squats (for people who actually have these problems, probably) are
- shallow and narrow leg squats
- shallow Swiss ball wall squats
- shallow forward lunges
and less safe ones are
- deep and wide squats and lunges
- lifting or pressing heavy weights (!) including leg presses
- any exercise where there is direct downward pressure on the pelvic floor0 -
¯\(°_o)/¯HappyCampr1 wrote: »Wouldn't some of the extra core strength that you develop help to offset the pressure you're putting on those muscles? The pelvic floor can be strengthened and I guess I was just wondering if it gets strengthened over time by the weightlifting itself.
Maybe?0 -
HappyCampr1 wrote: »Wouldn't some of the extra core strength that you develop help to offset the pressure you're putting on those muscles? The pelvic floor can be strengthened and I guess I was just wondering if it gets strengthened over time by the weightlifting itself.
Not always...I developed issues after a Caesar and had worked at the core for a year prior (in good shape core wise) and after in recovery and no difference to the problem. Used to have to have a break during training. Can't say whether I noticed squats particularly aggravated it though. Second Caesar and surgeon recognised and corrected abnormal scarred tissue from previous Caesar which turned out to be the issue all along. Once that was done I had no problems and very thankful for that second Caesar because it was doing my head in not understanding what was going on. Doctors put it down to, originally, as having had 5 kids and I had to just put up with it. No amount of pelvic squeezes was going to make it go away, only corrective surgery it turns out.
ETA: it can present itself a couple of years after surgery too. Tissue continues to grow around scar and doesn't care what it attaches to. Mine was tugging at bladder or something so said surgeon during Caesar. And on second thoughts (been a while)..squats were risky. TMI but there you have it.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »I noticed a few people comment about having knee pain when squatting below parallel, but at or above parallel there are no problems.
The deeper you go, the more difficult it is to maintain external rotation. Once you lose external rotation, you lose knee stability - the knees collapse and no longer track over the toes correctly, then you get pain.
So most likely.. your strength at or above parallel is adequate enough to maintain external rotation/stability. But below parallel, which is more demanding, you are weak in that position and lose it.
But it may not be a strength/stability issue.. it could be a mobility issue or even both.
Bret Contreras has a great article on the subject:
http://bretcontreras.com/knee-valgus-valgus-collapse-glute-medius-strengthening-band-hip-abduction-exercises-and-ankle-dorsiflexion-drills/
That's good because I don't think most people realize how big of a role the ankle muscles (tibialis & calves basically) play the squat. I've actually seen EMG studies that show higher peak activation in the calves than in the quads during the concentric, rather interesting; I know would never have guessed that.
Is the ankle thing he's mentioned part of not keeping heel to floor (?) because I'm having trouble with keeping one heel to floor (this is new because of joints I think) it's heading up to behind the knee and I think affecting my hips now too so I stopped because no matter how hard I try to plant that heel it resists...recently I saw someone squatting and using small plates as "heels" under her heel. I'm wondering if that's an idea for me while the joint gets over itself.
You can do that with the plates but it's kind of a band-aid to an actual issue and you'd be better served to correct the actual issue. It could be a mobility issue, some combination of the gastrocnemius, possibly hamstrings and hips too.0 -
XavierNusum wrote: »You know one thing that has been overlooked in the 7 pages of this thread? How bada$$ Suzanne Svanevik (girl in picture) is! She is crazy strong and a good example of crossfit for strength.
youtube.com/watch?v=eLZ8Evl4pTk
Your real CF competitors don't typically train the typical CF WODS for strength. When training for a big CF event they will typically training some other way and many have backgrounds in powerlifting and Olympic lifting and that is where their strength comes. CF gives them their work capacity.0 -
Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »XavierNusum wrote: »You know one thing that has been overlooked in the 7 pages of this thread? How bada$$ Suzanne Svanevik (girl in picture) is! She is crazy strong and a good example of crossfit for strength.
youtube.com/watch?v=eLZ8Evl4pTk
Your real CF competitors don't typically train the typical CF WODS for strength. When training for a big CF event they will typically training some other way and many have backgrounds in powerlifting and Olympic lifting and that is where their strength comes. CF gives them their work capacity.
I think she may have had a background in gymnastics but that's it. Everything else came from crossfit. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that most top tier crossfit games athletes don't train mindless, random roll of the dice workouts, but not many of them leave "legit" lifting to go crossfit. Most move the opposite direction. It's one of the reasons Oly lifting is starting to become more popular here in the U.S.
There is actually a snippet in the video where you see her barely banging out chins on a home, door-way pull-up bar. It's obviously early in her crossfit career, no squat bootah yet.
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Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »I noticed a few people comment about having knee pain when squatting below parallel, but at or above parallel there are no problems.
The deeper you go, the more difficult it is to maintain external rotation. Once you lose external rotation, you lose knee stability - the knees collapse and no longer track over the toes correctly, then you get pain.
So most likely.. your strength at or above parallel is adequate enough to maintain external rotation/stability. But below parallel, which is more demanding, you are weak in that position and lose it.
But it may not be a strength/stability issue.. it could be a mobility issue or even both.
Bret Contreras has a great article on the subject:
http://bretcontreras.com/knee-valgus-valgus-collapse-glute-medius-strengthening-band-hip-abduction-exercises-and-ankle-dorsiflexion-drills/
That's good because I don't think most people realize how big of a role the ankle muscles (tibialis & calves basically) play the squat. I've actually seen EMG studies that show higher peak activation in the calves than in the quads during the concentric, rather interesting; I know would never have guessed that.
Is the ankle thing he's mentioned part of not keeping heel to floor (?) because I'm having trouble with keeping one heel to floor (this is new because of joints I think) it's heading up to behind the knee and I think affecting my hips now too so I stopped because no matter how hard I try to plant that heel it resists...recently I saw someone squatting and using small plates as "heels" under her heel. I'm wondering if that's an idea for me while the joint gets over itself.
You can do that with the plates but it's kind of a band-aid to an actual issue and you'd be better served to correct the actual issue. It could be a mobility issue, some combination of the gastrocnemius, possibly hamstrings and hips too.
Thanks. I was thinking that too. Do have other stuff that could contribute. Interim measure for sure.0 -
XavierNusum wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »XavierNusum wrote: »You know one thing that has been overlooked in the 7 pages of this thread? How bada$$ Suzanne Svanevik (girl in picture) is! She is crazy strong and a good example of crossfit for strength.
youtube.com/watch?v=eLZ8Evl4pTk
Your real CF competitors don't typically train the typical CF WODS for strength. When training for a big CF event they will typically training some other way and many have backgrounds in powerlifting and Olympic lifting and that is where their strength comes. CF gives them their work capacity.
I think she may have had a background in gymnastics but that's it. Everything else came from crossfit. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that most top tier crossfit games athletes don't train mindless, random roll of the dice workouts, but not many of them leave "legit" lifting to go crossfit. Most move the opposite direction. It's one of the reasons Oly lifting is starting to become more popular here in the U.S.
There is actually a snippet in the video where you see her barely banging out chins on a home, door-way pull-up bar. It's obviously early in her crossfit career, no squat bootah yet.
you missed the point. her success at cross fit hasn't come from doing crossfit wods- it's come from training more like an OLY athlete in the off season and upping the "crossfit" aspect of it as she peaks.
She's probably naturally small and naturally athletically gifted. Crossfit Wods in a gym may have been a gateway but they certainly didn't get her success on the national platform.0 -
MireyGal76 wrote: »hannahkingfitness wrote: »All muscles for toned bum and legs are activated at either *kitten* to grass or 90 degrees however *kitten* to grass is a fast track to ruining your knees meaning exercise and life will be made painful and near impossible as you age.Did you read the Schoenfeld review paper I linked and posted extracts from upthread? Makes for interesting reading...
Also, "as you age": what age range do you have specifically in mind? 30's? 40's? 50's?
Well, here's another reason to limit depth that might, for some people, go along with age, or in the case of women, pregnancy, and is not something people necessarily want to think about - issues with the pelvic floor and various other nether regions. Obviously, this is not something that happens to everyone when they have a baby or reach 50, though, and you would obviously only think about that if it came up. (My pelvic floor is in great shape fwiw but it's been an issue for a friend)
what issues? is this about incontinence? or the uterus falling out? I'm a little in the dark on this. How does a deeper squat impact that particular area?
Yeah, any of those, or eg. nether region prolapse (that is the clinical term. jk, i can't even bring myself to say it) - when people have issues like that, without a strong pelvic floor, going deeper into the squat (esp with heavy weight) exerts that much more pressure onto that area. Apparently. But yeah obviously that is person and situation specific and not something that just happens to everyone with age or pregnancy
But would lowbar squatting to parallel with limit strength type loads produce the same problem in these individuals?
I don't know! I found this though (pdf), which identifies these at-risk populations:
- pregnant women, women who have had a baby, menopausal women, women who've had hysterectomies or any gynecological surgery (that is a lot of women tbh)
- men who've had surgery for prostate cancer and
- elite athletes like runners, gymnasts, and trampolinists
- I guess anyone who's actually had these kinds of issues
and says that some pelvic-floor safe squats (for people who actually have these problems, probably) are
- shallow and narrow leg squats
- shallow Swiss ball wall squats
- shallow forward lunges
and less safe ones are
- deep and wide squats and lunges
- lifting or pressing heavy weights (!) including leg presses
- any exercise where there is direct downward pressure on the pelvic floor
maxie pad solves the problem also.
just saying.0 -
terricherry2 wrote: »My trainer explained it to me this way:
If you squat to parallel you'll still be working quads, hammys and glutes but your quads will be doing more of the work. If you go below then they're all having to work just as hard so it's more of an all rounder.
But like others have said, it really depends on your flexibility. I go *kitten* to floor because I can, but a girl I work out with can't yet so she just gets as low as she can with good form.
It really depends on bar placement. Obviously, you should only go to where it is comfortable, but low bar works more glutes and hams than high bar.
Depth is a tricky one, the further you go, the more your quads work.. So I really don't know tok much about that.
Just go low bar with a wide stance to as far as is comfortable.
If you want a big *kitten* though, consider hip thrusts, glutes bridges, cable pull throughs and possibly kettlebell swings and of course glute kickbacks.
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juliewatkin wrote: »labeastette wrote: »Guess I should start focusing on trying to go lower on my squats then! But I've read that you should watch that your knees don't go past your toes or something like that. Good form is key and it helps to know that if you are going to go that low, to lighten the load you're lifting. Great tips! Thanks!
I'd be wary of the knees past toes advice. Whether your knees go past your toes is dependent upon your body's mechanics. I have long femurs. When I squat (low bar) keeping the weight centred over my feet, my knees go past my toes. Much of it is the mechanics of your bodies levers. You are definitely correct about maintaining dialed in form.
Agreed with the mechanjcs.
Low bar squats with knees past toes? Do you take a narrow stance?
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juliewatkin wrote: »
Parallel means that you hip crease should be in line with your knee, so neither. Go lower by all means if it is comfortable.
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MireyGal76 wrote: »hannahkingfitness wrote: »All muscles for toned bum and legs are activated at either *kitten* to grass or 90 degrees however *kitten* to grass is a fast track to ruining your knees meaning exercise and life will be made painful and near impossible as you age.Did you read the Schoenfeld review paper I linked and posted extracts from upthread? Makes for interesting reading...
Also, "as you age": what age range do you have specifically in mind? 30's? 40's? 50's?
Well, here's another reason to limit depth that might, for some people, go along with age, or in the case of women, pregnancy, and is not something people necessarily want to think about - issues with the pelvic floor and various other nether regions. Obviously, this is not something that happens to everyone when they have a baby or reach 50, though, and you would obviously only think about that if it came up. (My pelvic floor is in great shape fwiw but it's been an issue for a friend)
what issues? is this about incontinence? or the uterus falling out? I'm a little in the dark on this. How does a deeper squat impact that particular area?
Yeah, any of those, or eg. nether region prolapse (that is the clinical term. jk, i can't even bring myself to say it) - when people have issues like that, without a strong pelvic floor, going deeper into the squat (esp with heavy weight) exerts that much more pressure onto that area. Apparently. But yeah obviously that is person and situation specific and not something that just happens to everyone with age or pregnancy
But would lowbar squatting to parallel with limit strength type loads produce the same problem in these individuals?
I don't know! I found this though (pdf), which identifies these at-risk populations:
- pregnant women, women who have had a baby, menopausal women, women who've had hysterectomies or any gynecological surgery (that is a lot of women tbh)
- men who've had surgery for prostate cancer and
- elite athletes like runners, gymnasts, and trampolinists
- I guess anyone who's actually had these kinds of issues
and says that some pelvic-floor safe squats (for people who actually have these problems, probably) are
- shallow and narrow leg squats
- shallow Swiss ball wall squats
- shallow forward lunges
and less safe ones are
- deep and wide squats and lunges
- lifting or pressing heavy weights (!) including leg presses
- any exercise where there is direct downward pressure on the pelvic floor
maxie pad solves the problem also.
just saying.
Does it? I don't know. I don't have kids, but five of my friends had babies this year, and I am hearing story after horrific story about multiple body parts going wonky. Hernias, diastesis recti, people's hands going permanently numb because the fetus sat on that nerve for most of a year... Anyway that is a digression, but it does seem that there is a population that may need to be careful with squats and squat depth and weighted squats for various reasons.0 -
I don't go to ground due to a knee injury, but im still seeing great results.0
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XavierNusum wrote: »Sam_I_Am77 wrote: »XavierNusum wrote: »You know one thing that has been overlooked in the 7 pages of this thread? How bada$$ Suzanne Svanevik (girl in picture) is! She is crazy strong and a good example of crossfit for strength.
youtube.com/watch?v=eLZ8Evl4pTk
Your real CF competitors don't typically train the typical CF WODS for strength. When training for a big CF event they will typically training some other way and many have backgrounds in powerlifting and Olympic lifting and that is where their strength comes. CF gives them their work capacity.
I think she may have had a background in gymnastics but that's it. Everything else came from crossfit. Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that most top tier crossfit games athletes don't train mindless, random roll of the dice workouts, but not many of them leave "legit" lifting to go crossfit. Most move the opposite direction. It's one of the reasons Oly lifting is starting to become more popular here in the U.S.
There is actually a snippet in the video where you see her barely banging out chins on a home, door-way pull-up bar. It's obviously early in her crossfit career, no squat bootah yet.
you missed the point. her success at cross fit hasn't come from doing crossfit wods- it's come from training more like an OLY athlete in the off season and upping the "crossfit" aspect of it as she peaks.
She's probably naturally small and naturally athletically gifted. Crossfit Wods in a gym may have been a gateway but they certainly didn't get her success on the national platform.
No I didn't. It seems that bashing crossfit is the new, "Well he/she has gotta be on something". Like I said games athletes don't do metcon's everyday. But there are plenty of people who do crossfit programming 2-4 times per week and do very little of anything else and have fantastic results in both strength and muscle mass, period.0 -
LAST post on scary pelvic / nether region stuff, really sorry for derail, just wanted to share - for anyone worried about or interested in related issues and how they might impact squatting and other exercises, I just found this website, seems like a good resource for videos on improving the strength of your pelvic floor. It's by an Australian physio specializing in women's health. https://www.pelvicexercises.com.au/ There's a video on squatting in there. There is information and videos on exercises for men who have nether region problems (front and back) as well. (This physiotherapist isn't afraid of anything, lol)0
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I do hams to calves but my knees are fine.
I find it works glutes as well whereas parrallel squat doesn't really, just my observation.0 -
I'm sorry but isn't this terrible for your knees? Her knees are over her ankles and it's just seems like it will cause a lot of stress on her knees in the long run. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. What's the proper way to perform those squats?0
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Hot off the press from Brett Contreras...interesting reading
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/262528370 -
lookbeyond01 wrote: »I'm sorry but isn't this terrible for your knees? Her knees are over her ankles and it's just seems like it will cause a lot of stress on her knees in the long run. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. What's the proper way to perform those squats?
If you're going past to depth- then you're going to cross the line of your toes- that's a fairly old adage that was made up off less than reputable studies- you're knees cross your toes going up stairs- it's not nearly the crisis the fitness industry once lead us to believe.0 -
lookbeyond01 wrote: »I'm sorry but isn't this terrible for your knees? Her knees are over her ankles and it's just seems like it will cause a lot of stress on her knees in the long run. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. What's the proper way to perform those squats?
Please read the thread.0 -
Crap!!!! That was a RAW lift at that weight!!!! True strength.XavierNusum wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »XavierNusum wrote: »I'm really assuming she's talking about the guy with 4 or 5 plates on a bar barely unhinging the hips. People who are taking the time to lift at a weight that promotes using good form don't fall into that category.
Hitting parallel and stopping at parallel isn't a half squat. Pretty substantial difference between hitting parallel and those who are ego lifting.
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsFC_2mFZg0
is not
This:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_GsNXF_Rzc
This is it right here. I agree 100% Not to mention I think Chad Wesley Smith is going deeper than parallel it's just hard to tell because he's so freaking massive! lol
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Ironmaiden4life wrote: »Hot off the press from Brett Contreras...interesting reading
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26252837
I saw him post about this on his IG. It basically found that doing a full ATG squat didn't work your glutes anymore than a parallel squat and that full, parallel and front squats work your glutes, quads, and hamstrings about the same even with using more weight on the parallel squat. He does still recommend doing the full range of motion though when squatting though.0 -
Crap!!!! That was a RAW lift at that weight!!!! True strength.XavierNusum wrote: »LolBroScience wrote: »XavierNusum wrote: »I'm really assuming she's talking about the guy with 4 or 5 plates on a bar barely unhinging the hips. People who are taking the time to lift at a weight that promotes using good form don't fall into that category.
Hitting parallel and stopping at parallel isn't a half squat. Pretty substantial difference between hitting parallel and those who are ego lifting.
This:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsFC_2mFZg0
is not
This:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_GsNXF_Rzc
This is it right here. I agree 100% Not to mention I think Chad Wesley Smith is going deeper than parallel it's just hard to tell because he's so freaking massive! lol
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes sir, CWS is a beast!!! You should see his teammate Marisa Inda! She pulls 315 for reps and holds several records.0 -
I squat with a wide stance going parallel or below and I also use the smith machine which I feel targets my glutes more plus I can focus on using my glutes to push upwards without have to worry about keeping my balance. It seems to be working. I think the deeper you go the more it targets your glutes so perhaps go as far deep as you personally feel you need to go.0
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TFaustino67 wrote: »Try that again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmknaFEFcF0
Awesome video! Great info I have never seen anywhere else! Thanks for sharing
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I go as low as i can with my *heels on the floor*. Which now is thighs against calves, as low as my fat body allows.
I have an old knee injury (from doing lunges improperly) and stopping at parallel is harder on my knees than going all the way. Ultimately i see squats as more of a flexibility exercise. i don't intend to lift weight while squatting but i do want to retain back and ankle flexibility.0 -
A full squat is below parallel by definition, however not everybody has the hip mobility to achieve this. As a general rule I would suggest going as far as your hips will allow, anything else and you will risk injury. You could try to improve hip mobility over time, but I wouldn't let it discourage anyone from adding weight. I've worked on bettering my hip mobility over time, when I reach plateaus and reduce weight I start by using my bettered range to work back up to the plateau weight. I can go lower all the way up the weight range because of focus on improving hip mobility. Even when struggling with hip mobility I have never experienced any issues with working glutes or any other worked muscle groups.
May I ask what stretches/exercises do you do to increase your mobility ? ESP for bad knees0
This discussion has been closed.
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