Need some running advice
MoiAussi93
Posts: 1,948 Member
I've been running on and off for quite a while. Usually I run outside, and my typical run is 3.2 miles...2 or 3 times a week. I'm slow...usually somewhere in the 12 minute mile ballpark...sometimes a little faster, sometimes a little slower. I have in the past couple of months done two or three 5-6 mile runs...however these were on a treadmill set at a 12 minute mile pace and treadmill running is much easier than outside. This is to give you some background on my current fitness level. I'm also 44, female, and a bit heavy for a runner...high 160's currently, though at 5'10" that is a "normal" BMI, just on the upper end.
My question is this: I want to get faster. Is it better for me to focus on just adding distance while running at an easy pace or to focus more on shorter distances at a faster pace, or some combination of the two? I have run intervals at times in the past, and liked that. However, I have read that speed work should not be done unless you have already built up a sufficient aerobic base. I read conflicting things on what exactly this base mileage is. Do I need to be consistently running 5-6 miles at a time? Or is my current 3.2 miles enough? Another concern for me is that I don't want an injury, and I know speed work can make that a little more likely. I had a nagging calf injury that bothered me on and off for several months...it seems healed now and hasn't acted up in the past month or so, but I don't want to push it.
Thanks for your advice.
My question is this: I want to get faster. Is it better for me to focus on just adding distance while running at an easy pace or to focus more on shorter distances at a faster pace, or some combination of the two? I have run intervals at times in the past, and liked that. However, I have read that speed work should not be done unless you have already built up a sufficient aerobic base. I read conflicting things on what exactly this base mileage is. Do I need to be consistently running 5-6 miles at a time? Or is my current 3.2 miles enough? Another concern for me is that I don't want an injury, and I know speed work can make that a little more likely. I had a nagging calf injury that bothered me on and off for several months...it seems healed now and hasn't acted up in the past month or so, but I don't want to push it.
Thanks for your advice.
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I found a 6-week half-marathon training schedule that combines sprint runs, hill runs, weight training, flexibility, slow jogs and race pace runs on different days. I'm hoping the variety will improve both my speed and endurance. I start today, so I will let you know in a few weeks. ;o) I would say listen to your body to avoid injury.0
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You need to focus on increasing your mileage at this point. Do not worry about speed. It will come naturally as you run more. The rule of thumb is not increase your weekly mileage by more than 10% at a time. Start by adding a little bit of distance to one run each week. One you get comfortable with running up to 5 miles, then try and add another day of running each week. You will begin to notice natural improvements in your pace just by virtue of running more miles. When you reach a point where you are comfortably running 20+ miles per week, then you can look into adding a bit of speed work. But the most critical thing is to build a good aerobic base and that is done by running slow, steady miles (you should be running at a pace where you are able to have a conversation. If you are gasping for breath, you are running too fast). Good luck!!0
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It's probably best to start running intervals when you can comfortably do a few 4-5 mile runs per week. Mostly because in order to get in serious intervals, you're probably looking at a 1-mile warmup, 1-2 miles of intervals (between the intervals and the rest periods/slow walking or running), and then a 1-mile cooldown.
What you CAN do, in addition to adding longer runs, is just randomly speeding up on your regular runs. So you run for a mile, then make the second mile speed play-run as hard as possible to the corner, then slow run until your breathing slows down, then do the same. Not structured speedwork, but making it more of a fun game.
Longer runs and speed play should help, and then intervals will give you an additional push.
I, too, am a slow runner. At my fastest I could do 9 minute miles for a 5k. Volume and speed play are how I got there (I set my 5k personal best after training for a half marathon).0 -
If you're serious, you can make some very good improvements with low risk of injury. Your weight is fine - just make sure you have proper running shoes.
Frequency and mileage is king for the next 6 months. Run 5-6 times a week but build the total weekly mileage slowly. A simple distance guide for a week is 3-2-1 . So try three 2 mile runs, two 3 mile runs and one 4 mile run in a week. One day off. Then if something comes up and you miss a 2nd day it's not the end of the world. Don't race just be consistent for a few months and you'll be stunned how much faster you will get.
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It sounds like the consensus is I need to add mileage before I make speed a priority. Alright, that sounds like a good plan. Now I just have to go do it.
Thanks all.0 -
I recommend signing up for a race. 5k is a great first race distance. You will be surprised how much faster you are when you run with others in a race setting! Last weekend I ran a half marathon, and I told myself to expect to run 12 min miles (based on my speed during training). I ended up averaging 10.5 min miles during the race. I was shocked.
As for training for speed, an experienced friend told me this: Use short distances to work on speed (like 2-3 miles). Warm up for a mile, then run as fast as you can for 1-1.5 miles, then cool down for the remainder of the run. Also, work hills into your weekly routine. Hill runs should also be short (2 miles or so). Don't worry about speed during the hill runs, just work on not stopping the entire time! Your speed will improve naturally by adding these types of runs into your workout.0 -
sarakenna12 wrote: »As for training for speed, an experienced friend told me this: Use short distances to work on speed (like 2-3 miles). Warm up for a mile, then run as fast as you can for 1-1.5 miles, then cool down for the remainder of the run. Also, work hills into your weekly routine. Hill runs should also be short (2 miles or so). Don't worry about speed during the hill runs, just work on not stopping the entire time! Your speed will improve naturally by adding these types of runs into your workout.
No. None of this. The key part is "experienced" friend. This stuff is icing on the cake. OP has no cake.
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OP, you need lots and lots of easy miles. Speed work and intervals are just icing on the cake. You need to bake the cake first. A thin cracker with icing isn't as nice as a big fluffy cake with icing. Improve your base and then work on the other stuff as a small addition to the real work. At least 80% of your miles should be easy running.
Just run more easy miles.
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Okay, now I want a piece of cake.
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mmmmmmm cake....
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sarakenna12 wrote: »As for training for speed, an experienced friend told me this: Use short distances to work on speed (like 2-3 miles). Warm up for a mile, then run as fast as you can for 1-1.5 miles, then cool down for the remainder of the run. Also, work hills into your weekly routine. Hill runs should also be short (2 miles or so). Don't worry about speed during the hill runs, just work on not stopping the entire time! Your speed will improve naturally by adding these types of runs into your workout.
I...I don't even know what this would do for an experienced runner. Intervals should be done at a pace where you can repeat the distance 3, 4, or 5 times at least. tempo runs should be done below VO2max threshold and for a longer time. "running as fast as you can for 1-1.5 miles and then cooling down" is just spinning your wheels. An all-out mile is something usually done with your buddies for fun.
OP, get your base built up. Don't worry about speed work right now.
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ThickMcRunFast wrote: »OP, get your base built up. Don't worry about speed work right now.
Agreed!
@MoiAussi93 should focus on continuing to build a broader base using easy / foundational running at a pace at which the runner can hold something of a conversation out loud with a partner, dog, or the trees. A broader base of running helps improve aerobic capacity and the body strengthens itself by adapting to the stresses.
Since @MoiAussi93 can already run 5 - 6 miles on a treadmill, that's the perfect first target to reach for outside. Maybe stretch your next outside run from 3.2 to 4 miles. Repeat the distance on your next run. Still feeling good? Great, add a bit more to a run next week. And so on. Listen to your body and back off if need be until ready to progress.
If @MoiAussi93 wants to do anything else at the same time, IMO a good next step would be to ensure you are turning your feet over quickly enough to hit an appropriate cadence. Many runners turn their feet over too slowly and therefore take too long a stride for a given pace; this leads to lower cadence (foot strikes per minute) and generally more force exerted on each strike.
You should be aiming for a cadence approaching 180 strikes per minute (90 per foot) on a level course. If you don't have a running watch that can measure cadence, capture it manually by counting just one foot for 30 seconds, multiply that number by four = SPM for both feet. Many novice / recreational runners who haven't addressed this yet will probably find their cadence is somewhere between 150-165 SPM.
(Alternatively you can find a metronome app for a smart phone that you might use to determine what your cadence is and work towards a more appropriate cadence.)
Picking up cadence (don't try to hit 180 straight away) while maintaining the same conversational pace will almost automatically improve running form by ensuring the foot is landing more under the body, reducing stress on the body and reducing the chance of injury.
By the time the OP has built up a bigger base and improved cadence it's highly likely she *will* be running faster even before taking on any specific speed work, and her body will be ready for it.
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sarakenna12 wrote: »I recommend signing up for a race. 5k is a great first race distance. You will be surprised how much faster you are when you run with others in a race setting! Last weekend I ran a half marathon, and I told myself to expect to run 12 min miles (based on my speed during training). I ended up averaging 10.5 min miles during the race. I was shocked.
As for training for speed, an experienced friend told me this: Use short distances to work on speed (like 2-3 miles). Warm up for a mile, then run as fast as you can for 1-1.5 miles, then cool down for the remainder of the run. Also, work hills into your weekly routine. Hill runs should also be short (2 miles or so). Don't worry about speed during the hill runs, just work on not stopping the entire time! Your speed will improve naturally by adding these types of runs into your workout.
I ran a 5k a couple of years ago...the problem is I am still at basically the same speed. I haven't progressed. Granted, I have not been consistent and have taken some time off for injuries and, to be honest, laziness. I know I need to be more consistent with it to progress, and now I'm ready to do that.0 -
I say get a good GPS running app for your phone so you can know your mileage and most will allow you to log your runs so you can review mileage and speed. Work on getting the miles where you want them and settle in to get a comfort level with it. Then push a bit on the first mile to get below your normal pace. Keep expanding on how long you push and how fast the pace is. Eventually you get that great feeling of wow that was a great run!0
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sarakenna12 wrote: »As for training for speed, an experienced friend told me this: Use short distances to work on speed (like 2-3 miles). Warm up for a mile, then run as fast as you can for 1-1.5 miles, then cool down for the remainder of the run. Also, work hills into your weekly routine. Hill runs should also be short (2 miles or so). Don't worry about speed during the hill runs, just work on not stopping the entire time! Your speed will improve naturally by adding these types of runs into your workout.
No. None of this. The key part is "experienced" friend. This stuff is icing on the cake. OP has no cake.OP, you need lots and lots of easy miles. Speed work and intervals are just icing on the cake. You need to bake the cake first. A thin cracker with icing isn't as nice as a big fluffy cake with icing. Improve your base and then work on the other stuff as a small addition to the real work. At least 80% of your miles should be easy running.
Just run more easy miles.
Okay...I need cake. I need to get baking!
Seriously though, I am taking the advice. I am going to focus on building distance for now, and run a bit more frequently.0 -
ThickMcRunFast wrote: »OP, get your base built up. Don't worry about speed work right now.
Agreed!
@MoiAussi93 should focus on continuing to build a broader base using easy / foundational running at a pace at which the runner can hold something of a conversation out loud with a partner, dog, or the trees. A broader base of running helps improve aerobic capacity and the body strengthens itself by adapting to the stresses.
Since @MoiAussi93 can already run 5 - 6 miles on a treadmill, that's the perfect first target to reach for outside. Maybe stretch your next outside run from 3.2 to 4 miles. Repeat the distance on your next run. Still feeling good? Great, add a bit more to a run next week. And so on. Listen to your body and back off if need be until ready to progress.
If @MoiAussi93 wants to do anything else at the same time, IMO a good next step would be to ensure you are turning your feet over quickly enough to hit an appropriate cadence. Many runners turn their feet over too slowly and therefore take too long a stride for a given pace; this leads to lower cadence (foot strikes per minute) and generally more force exerted on each strike.
You should be aiming for a cadence approaching 180 strikes per minute (90 per foot) on a level course. If you don't have a running watch that can measure cadence, capture it manually by counting just one foot for 30 seconds, multiply that number by four = SPM for both feet. Many novice / recreational runners who haven't addressed this yet will probably find their cadence is somewhere between 150-165 SPM.
(Alternatively you can find a metronome app for a smart phone that you might use to determine what your cadence is and work towards a more appropriate cadence.)
Picking up cadence (don't try to hit 180 straight away) while maintaining the same conversational pace will almost automatically improve running form by ensuring the foot is landing more under the body, reducing stress on the body and reducing the chance of injury.
By the time the OP has built up a bigger base and improved cadence it's highly likely she *will* be running faster even before taking on any specific speed work, and her body will be ready for it.
Thanks, lots of good advice here. I had read an article about cadence a while back, and counted mine while out for a run. I don't recall the number, but I do remember that it was significantly slower than the recommended 180. I will test it again soon, and try to start gradually bringing it up.0 -
I say get a good GPS running app for your phone so you can know your mileage and most will allow you to log your runs so you can review mileage and speed. Work on getting the miles where you want them and settle in to get a comfort level with it. Then push a bit on the first mile to get below your normal pace. Keep expanding on how long you push and how fast the pace is. Eventually you get that great feeling of wow that was a great run!
I have runkeeper and use that. It is great for tracking what I'm doing. It seems the key now is just to run more and build up the mileage gradually.0 -
Set a goal. do you wanna run 1 mile in 10 minutes ? 3 miles in 30 minutes ? 10 miles in 60 minutes? You just said faster and most said build more miles first. lol !
Set a distance, a time, and a date, then break it down into small manageable goals. A running program is a complete package, but first you need a goal.
Any other questions, you know where to find me.0 -
Charliegottheruns wrote: »Set a goal. do you wanna run 1 mile in 10 minutes ? 3 miles in 30 minutes ? 10 miles in 60 minutes? You just said faster and most said build more miles first. lol !
Set a distance, a time, and a date, then break it down into small manageable goals. A running program is a complete package, but first you need a goal.
Any other questions, you know where to find me.
We didn't say do more miles first. We said that more miles was definitively the answer.
I'm sure the OP can run a 10 minute/mile pace for 100 yards. The issue isn't them obtaining that speed. The issue is endurance and maintaining that speed. How do you keep doing that for the next 100 yards, then for a mile, then for 2 and 3 miles. You have to build your endurance system.
A good goal would be a 5k some time out in the future. That's a good measuring stick for progress but for the most part just relax and enjoy running.0 -
Charliegottheruns wrote: »Set a goal. do you wanna run 1 mile in 10 minutes ? 3 miles in 30 minutes ? 10 miles in 60 minutes? You just said faster and most said build more miles first. lol !
Set a distance, a time, and a date, then break it down into small manageable goals. A running program is a complete package, but first you need a goal.
Any other questions, you know where to find me.
We didn't say do more miles first. We said that more miles was definitively the answer.
I'm sure the OP can run a 10 minute/mile pace for 100 yards. The issue isn't them obtaining that speed. The issue is endurance and maintaining that speed. How do you keep doing that for the next 100 yards, then for a mile, then for 2 and 3 miles. You have to build your endurance system.
A good goal would be a 5k some time out in the future. That's a good measuring stick for progress but for the most part just relax and enjoy running.
LOL is that your goal or her goal?0 -
Charliegottheruns wrote: »Charliegottheruns wrote: »Set a goal. do you wanna run 1 mile in 10 minutes ? 3 miles in 30 minutes ? 10 miles in 60 minutes? You just said faster and most said build more miles first. lol !
Set a distance, a time, and a date, then break it down into small manageable goals. A running program is a complete package, but first you need a goal.
Any other questions, you know where to find me.
We didn't say do more miles first. We said that more miles was definitively the answer.
I'm sure the OP can run a 10 minute/mile pace for 100 yards. The issue isn't them obtaining that speed. The issue is endurance and maintaining that speed. How do you keep doing that for the next 100 yards, then for a mile, then for 2 and 3 miles. You have to build your endurance system.
A good goal would be a 5k some time out in the future. That's a good measuring stick for progress but for the most part just relax and enjoy running.
LOL is that your goal or her goal?
I have several goals...down the road I would like to do a 10k, ideally under an hour. However, first I would like to get my 5k time below 30 minutes.
The 5k I ran a couple of years ago I ran in 34 something...and that was faster than any of my training runs then or now. Lately, at that distance I am ranging from just under 38 minutes on a good day to 40 minutes on a bad day (and other than my outlier race time of 34ish minutes, most of my runs back then were also in this 37-40 range). I want to improve both speed and endurance ultimately, but I'm just trying to figure out the best plan to do so.0 -
I disagree with most here... Run short distances to save your ligaments from shocks. And when you run, reach maximum pulse at least once during the run, sprint a bit! This will improve your heart muscles, it will recruit muscle fibres and increase metabolism. Keep in mind you want to warm up prior to the run. Long distances will get you hurt as your condition will improve faster than your ligament durability. If your goal is to get lean the same thing applies, you can run 15k and not look the slightest trained but sprinting and explosive muscles show. Best of luck0
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Charliegottheruns wrote: »You just said faster and most said build more miles first. lol !
There's nothing funny or contrary to the advice that's been given.
The OP asked what the route to increased speed is and let us know her base is currently fairly shallow. Her pattern of training suggests a recreational runner and most rec runners tend to aim for a 5k or 10k event. She also indicated that she has reason to be concerned about injury. There's quite a bit of info in her first post upon which sound advice can be based upon.
The route to increasing speed is first through building a bigger base.
That's true if she was aiming for racing 10 or 20 seconds to cover 50 or 100 meters or running a half marathon, swimming butterfly for 50 meters, or competing in 1,500 meters freestyle.
There's little point in picking an arbitrary speed goal except for grins and giggles at this point, not that there is anything wrong with that.0 -
And which "goal" doesn't really matter. Run lots, and you get faster at everything. Once you have a strong base then you can talk about specific 5k or 1/2 workouts. Elite 5K and elite 1/2 marathoners both run 100+ km/week, over and over. There are no real shortcuts.
You give me one guy running a solid 30-60 miles per week vs someone running 20 but doing any sprint/interval/fartlek stuff they want and I'll put my money on distance guy every single time.
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I'll say the only thing that improved my speed was HIIT. 2-3 times a week I follow a 30 min HIIT treadmill workout. It seems counterproductive to spend time walking while you are trying to be faster, but the intervals of "all-out" running really seems work. The other 2-3 days I run a more consistent pace and usually for longer period.
I only tried HIIT because I couldn't seem to get any faster even after running for years. Even when I was running 5-6 miles several days a week I couldn't seem to break a 9:30-10 min mile pace. Now I consistently run under 9 min miles. For a race I did earlier this year I ran a 8:20 min mile for 5 miles.0 -
The best plan is to set goals, start with your dream accomplishment (10 k under an hour) , then break it down into smaller goals. (5k under 30 minutes)
Set a date. 4 weeks ? 6 weeks ?
5 k @ 30 minutes is just over 10 minute mile. - Goal
5 k @ 40 minutes (bad day) just over 13 minute mile. - Present
Increase speed from a 13 minute mile to 10 minute mile in ????? 10 weeks? ( keep it simple) December 10th ?
October 1, 40 minutes (Assessment))
October 8, 39 Minutes ( Goal )
October 15, 38 Minutes ( Goal )
October 22, 37 Minutes ( Goal )
..........
December 10, 30 Minutes ( Goal ) Whoop !
" SMART " Goals
S-specific
M-measurable
A-attainable
R-realistic
T-Timely
Do not just focus on running; bicycle, stair-climber, rower, elliptical, swimming, stretching, and resistance training can all be implemented into a cardio program.
Here's different types of runs that may fit into your weekly training. These runs where defined and individualized for me through a cardio fitness assessment center.
Recovery: A Recovery Run should be between 20-60 minutes in length, on flat terrain. Your intensity must remain low even if you hit any hills, slow down and focus on your breathing. The key to a Recovery Run is to run just enough to engage the active recovery process but not long or intense enough to induce a training stress.
Endurance: Endurance Runs improve aerobic development by increasing mitochondria size and density, increasing stroke volume, increasing respiratory endurance, and improving thermodynamic regulation. This workout is typically 45+ minutes and is done below a prescribed heart rate.
Steady State: Steady State Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Steady State Runs should be performed after a warm up, and a few running strides.
These intervals should be done below your lactate threshold, and it is important that you maintain that intensity for the duration of the interval.
Tempo: Tempo Runs can be performed on the road or trails with a long steady climb, hills, or flat terrain. Tempo Runs should be performed after a warm-up, and a few running strides. Your Tempo run should be done continuously from start to finish at your Tempo heart rate or pace determined by testing. Tempo intervals are slightly below to slightly above the lactate threshold.
Fartlek Intervals: Fartlek Intervals improve lactate threshold and work on pacing, while simulating the changes that can occur during a race. After a warm up, increase the intensity until you reach the heart rate/ pace determined by a test. Continue at this intensity for the duration of the interval; after the specified interval is over, slow down to the recovery heart rate/ pace. Fartlek Intervals can be done at a variety of intensities and duration's. During the foundation period, all work will be below the lactate threshold. During the preparation and specialization period, Fartlek Intervals will be a mix of aerobic and anaerobic states.
Running Intervals (Max Efforts): Running Intervals improve lactate tolerance by working above your lactate threshold. Running Intervals are 30 seconds to 5 minutes in length at as close to max intensity. These intervals build up high levels of lactate and train the body to and buffer lactate efficiently. Running Intervals are very stressful on the body and needs to be performed with great care. During the weeks you perform speed intervals you will reduce your overall training hours to encourage recovery from the intervals.
I will email you my thoughts on nutrition and more specifics on an more individualized suggestions.
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Setting unrealistic goals is not a plan for anything but injury. Dropping 5km time essentially a minute per week suggests the runner will be pushing pace before ready.MoiAussi93 wrote: »I ran a 5k a couple of years ago...the problem is I am still at basically the same speed. I haven't progressed. Granted, I have not been consistent and have taken some time off for injuries and, to be honest, laziness. I know I need to be more consistent with it to progress, and now I'm ready to do that.
Great honesty and recognition of what you need to do!
Start logging miles consistently to build the base you need and that will open the door to adding in speed work and hills.
None of us preaching building a base are suggesting that speed work and other training is out of the question; it's just not what is needed at this time.
Bonus: just by being consistent and increasing your monthly volume your speed *will* improve without ever having done a single interval session at the track. By the time you are actually ready for speed work you'll already be faster.
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Yep, those are workouts for experienced runners not newbies.
Run lots, find a running group to socialize with, run at lunch or in the morning - whatever suits your schedule. So many options for Sunday morning runs.
See cake analogy. Crazy guy above eats icing.
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Cake. Carrot cake. Yum.
Or better yet, beer.
I run for beer. It's my profile motto so it must be true.0 -
I'm confused as to why your goal went from running faster to running more. If you only want to run 2 or 3 miles at a time, but run them faster, you can do that without doing 5 + mile runs. Just actually push yourself during those short runs. Yes, to run faster, you have to push yourself to a point where it's not comfortable for you. Just running more miles at your regular pace will not do that for you. If you want to run faster... Run faster...0
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