Medical Conditions Which Affect Weight: Separating Fact From Fiction
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tincanonastring wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'm fascinated with cortisol levels right now. I've had a significant amount of trauma in my life the last 2 months. I'm also type 1 diabetic. I went to my endocrinologist this week to help with my suddenly out of control high blood sugars. I also asked her about the 8 pounds I gained almost overnight despite diligently counting calories, weighing food, exercising, etc. The weight gain, high blood sugars are all stress/cortisol induced. She gave a very scientific explanation of how excess cortisol causes weight gain even when you do not change your eating habits. So I'm still weighing my food and eating at a deficit but I'm also actively trying to reduce cortisol levels.PeachyCarol wrote: »None cause (effect) weight, though some can influence (affect) it, if people don't change how they eat.
That seems to have been adequately addressed in this thread...
as well as the myriad of others saying exactly the same thing.
You feel that they've been adequately addressed? I see so many thyroid and PCOS threads with misinformation in them every day on this forum. Both conditions lead to marginal weight issues, but you wouldn't think that from some of what you see here.
Neither of them necessarily call for a special diet, except by choice either.
I know I've seen studies to back up what I'm saying. I'll try to find them in a bit and post them.
This discussion about cortisol is very interesting to me, as I want to understand it better.
I don't know a lot about it, to be honest. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge weighs in. Perhaps @usmcmp?
I'm quite interested. This time of year, my job is incredibly stressful, but I often have my best losses around now.
Do you find that having a lot going on in your life actually makes it easier to meet your other goals? I often experience that during higher stress situations. It's like I focus more on the things I CAN control when work is very crazy and those things include my calorie and fitness goals. I've speculated that having a regulated life helps control my overall stress level.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'm fascinated with cortisol levels right now. I've had a significant amount of trauma in my life the last 2 months. I'm also type 1 diabetic. I went to my endocrinologist this week to help with my suddenly out of control high blood sugars. I also asked her about the 8 pounds I gained almost overnight despite diligently counting calories, weighing food, exercising, etc. The weight gain, high blood sugars are all stress/cortisol induced. She gave a very scientific explanation of how excess cortisol causes weight gain even when you do not change your eating habits. So I'm still weighing my food and eating at a deficit but I'm also actively trying to reduce cortisol levels.PeachyCarol wrote: »None cause (effect) weight, though some can influence (affect) it, if people don't change how they eat.
That seems to have been adequately addressed in this thread...
as well as the myriad of others saying exactly the same thing.
You feel that they've been adequately addressed? I see so many thyroid and PCOS threads with misinformation in them every day on this forum. Both conditions lead to marginal weight issues, but you wouldn't think that from some of what you see here.
Neither of them necessarily call for a special diet, except by choice either.
I know I've seen studies to back up what I'm saying. I'll try to find them in a bit and post them.
This discussion about cortisol is very interesting to me, as I want to understand it better.
I don't know a lot about it, to be honest. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge weighs in. Perhaps @usmcmp?
I'm quite interested. This time of year, my job is incredibly stressful, but I often have my best losses around now.
Do you find that having a lot going on in your life actually makes it easier to meet your other goals? I often experience that during higher stress situations. It's like I focus more on the things I CAN control when work is very crazy and those things include my calorie and fitness goals. I've speculated that having a regulated life helps control my overall stress level.
YES. (For me). We talk about this at work a lot. When patient caseload is high and I have back to back appointments all day, I am more productive and get more done- and then go home at the end of the day and cook dinner and work out. When caseload is low and I work half days from home, NOTHING gets done. Netflix happens and my schedule turns to crap and my motivation flies away.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.
It isn't just water, there is fat loss with DKA. As I explained earlier, your body breaks down fat to convert it into glucose and then removes that glucose through urine. Again... this is not healthy, but it is what happens to cause fat loss without exercise.
It's clear that this episode of hypovolemic shock was very impactful on your life. You lost a lot of weight.
Can you point to an instance when bringing this up has made a meaningful change in someone's health journey? It's an unlikely scenario for most people and the fact of the matter is, MFP is built around a caloric deficit and that should be the focus because barring a tiny percentage of medical conditions that may change the way someone implements CICO, it still works.
How is it impacting your journey NOW? What are you doing differently NOW because of it? Do you count calories? Are you in a deficit? Because if you're not tracking with MFP and believe in deficit, why are you here? It's an honest question.
Hyperglycemic, not hypoglycemic.
I don't have enough detailed information about what everyone does on the MFP boards to say whether it has caused a meaningful change in someone else's journey. There are things like DKA that cause variations in the almighty CICO formula. The specific medical phenomena may be different for different users, but it still remains that CICO is not absolute. I'm hoping other users will understand that. I don't know whether it has helped or not (I get the sense that it has not because those users are unwilling to accept that CICO is not absolute).
I do count calories, and I am eating in a deficit. That alone is not enough for me, as I am doing other things to manage my health beyond calorie counting. I'm losing weight at a safe rate, not just due to CICO, but because of a combination of all factors. Counting calories is an important piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the only piece.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Do you find that having a lot going on in your life actually makes it easier to meet your other goals? I often experience that during higher stress situations. It's like I focus more on the things I CAN control when work is very crazy and those things include my calorie and fitness goals. I've speculated that having a regulated life helps control my overall stress level.
This is me. The more I have to do, the more I get done. Doing something or creating a product is actually relaxing for me. The regulation is why I find IF so wonderful. It's not stressful, it's comforting. I like schedules very much.0 -
I see this as being yet another thread that will be deleted due to derailing and argument.... lovely.
Good thing all those new MFP members don't need good general information on how to stop making excuses and start losing weight. Cause clearly up to 10% have some form of obscure medical issue.0 -
Here's a pretty decent write up about cortisol written by a few researchers (please feel free to read their references at the bottom for more in depth information):
http://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Article folder/stresscortisol.html
Also note, cortisol isn't the only hormone that is linked to stress and weight. Leptin and ghrelin are as well.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.
It isn't just water, there is fat loss with DKA. As I explained earlier, your body breaks down fat to convert it into glucose and then removes that glucose through urine. Again... this is not healthy, but it is what happens to cause fat loss without exercise.
It's clear that this episode of hypovolemic shock was very impactful on your life. You lost a lot of weight.
Can you point to an instance when bringing this up has made a meaningful change in someone's health journey? It's an unlikely scenario for most people and the fact of the matter is, MFP is built around a caloric deficit and that should be the focus because barring a tiny percentage of medical conditions that may change the way someone implements CICO, it still works.
How is it impacting your journey NOW? What are you doing differently NOW because of it? Do you count calories? Are you in a deficit? Because if you're not tracking with MFP and believe in deficit, why are you here? It's an honest question.
Hyperglycemic, not hypoglycemic.
I don't have enough detailed information about what everyone does on the MFP boards to say whether it has caused a meaningful change in someone else's journey. There are things like DKA that cause variations in the almighty CICO formula. The specific medical phenomena may be different for different users, but it still remains that CICO is not absolute. I'm hoping other users will understand that. I don't know whether it has helped or not (I get the sense that it has not because those users are unwilling to accept that CICO is not absolute).
I do count calories, and I am eating in a deficit. That alone is not enough for me, as I am doing other things to manage my health beyond calorie counting. I'm losing weight at a safe rate, not just due to CICO, but because of a combination of all factors. Counting calories is an important piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the only piece.
Where did you get hyper/hypoglycemic from? I was referring to the shock syndrome that you would have incurred from losing that much fluid in your body that rapidly, or hypovolemia.
I'm glad it's working for you because I can't imagine the lasting damage that left on your body. That aside, CICO still works. If you don't believe that, you should find a forum that specializes in medical conditions, rather than CICO.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Perhaps what you are trying to do is reduce the short cuts people make?
I'll take an example - I have a friend that became wheelchair bound four years ago (lateral paralysis) - this had led to her being obese. Obviously the chair didn't CAUSE the obesity but the conditions of difficulty in limiting consumption, depression, reduced mobility and the associated difficulty of increasing energy expenditure for someone that has difficulty moving resulted in consuming more calories than those expended.
What 'fiction' do you think needs to be addressed?
I think the fiction is dependent on the condition, Ev. There was a recent thread where someone brought up his own DKA, and he grossly misstated the mechanism of it and implied a medically impossible outcome of it. That's one type of fiction.
Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
Ah, I missed that thread - but saw some of the fallout.
I agree with you - few drugs cause direct weight gain (or some of that weight gain is transient from oedema).
Ok, I understand better what is your intent. I'll pop in with a few examples or can explain some physiological effects.
Here is another breakdown example: How hyperthyroidism might lead to weight gain.
Initially, untreated hyperthyroidism leads to rapid weight loss. It tends to down-regulate hunger and significantly up regulate metabolism directly - a person, like my ex, can experience 10-20lbs of weight loss per month (or even more), directly. This type of rapid weight loss not only results in fat loss but also screws up hormones and muscle mass.
Almost systematically, when the hyperthyroidism is treated (chemically or surgically destroying the thyroid) and replacement therapy occurs - the effects on satiety hormones, energy levels, mood and also reduced metabolism due to prior weight loss tend to lead to weight gain beyond the weight loss. It is very hard, in the absence of strict calorie management, to self regulate during this rollercoaster. The person ends up with a 10-40 lb gain without the relevant LBM gains and might struggle with mood and energy still.
Can it be avoided? Yes. But not without drastic calorie management methods.
This is what happened to my husband about 3 years ago. He was diagnosed with severe graves disease and thy had to surgically remove his thyroid because it had become so enlarged it had tendrils tangled around the side of his neck as far back as his ears (for those who are unaware, a normal thyroid is about the size of a small butterfly and sits beneath a man's adam's apple or just above the hollow in the a woman's throat). At the time he was diagnosed they said he had about 6 months to live if he hadn't come in. He's 5'11", large frame, and he was 127lbs.
He had a bit of a different hypOthyroidism experience than you mention here though. Gaining back all the weight he'd lost was actually a struggle. He's still only 145/150 lbs today and he eats like a horse. His blood tests all come back normal, and his energy is normal, so he's getting the right hormones now, but I dunno if we'll ever get him back up to 170. The man can't keep an ounce of fat on him to save his life............literally I guess considering what happened 3 years ago. So I guess it kind of goes both ways is what I'm sayin. I imagine it's a bit more difficult for women with hypothyroidism than it is for him. He's rather overabundant in the testosterone dept, so he's all muscle and nothing else, I would be shocked if his BF% was above 18. And us ladies have monthly hormone fluctuations to contend with, which no doesn't cause weight gain, but leads to a slew of things that do (ravenous hunger around TOM, those stress hormones you were talking about, among other things like the depression that can come with water weight gain making you feel like you aren't making any progress in spite of the hard work...)0 -
rainbowbow wrote: »I see this as being yet another thread that will be deleted due to derailing and argument.... lovely.
Good thing all those new MFP members don't need good general information on how to stop making excuses and start losing weight. Cause clearly up to 10% have some form of obscure medical issue.
This thread is about medical conditions that affect weight, and specifically about separating facts from fiction. The only issue I see here (and I'm not sure it is a TOS issue) so far is that some are incorrectly arguing that certain facts are false.0 -
My cortisol issues were not due to daily stress from life. They were due to 2 separate trauma situations. Fight or flight. After the 2nd episode about 6 weeks after the first it took my 3 days to stop shaking. Longer for my breathing to return to normal. I've read it can take months to recover from these kind of episodes. I also found out this week in severely vitamin D deficient which can also cause problems. (Side note I also have celiac and hashimotos but those are very well regulated and have not hindered weight loss.) In my case I can see the insulin resistance more than a non diabetic. My insulin needs more than doubled with both traumas and it's taking about 3 weeks each time to come back down to normal. Crazy stuff.
(Not sure why he dka discussion is happening here. Yes you quickly lose weight and either die or take insulin.)0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »Where I take issue is when users argue that it isn't possible to lose weight unless one is burning more calories with RMR + exercise than what they consume (often referred to as CICO). I've seen users argue that medical conditions don't change that, but can only affect RMR. My point is that there are, in fact, medical conditions that fall outside of the CICO equation. Is it a good idea to try DKA? No, absolutely not. Does it still provide an example of where CICO is wrong? Yes, definitely.
I'm pretty sure most people understand there are medical conditions that cause massive amounts of water retention, and massive amounts of water loss. Those things are exceptions to the day in, day out issues people deal with in regards to management of chronic disease. My type 1 diabetic uncle had issues with water retention to the point where he would get water in his lungs. This did contribute to his weight. The reason he was obese was still primarily CICO.
When I gave birth to my 11lb 4oz son I lost 25 lbs due to water retention from being pregnant baby, and having HBP. That has nothing to do with the fact that I was also obese, and had to lose weight.
It isn't just water, there is fat loss with DKA. As I explained earlier, your body breaks down fat to convert it into glucose and then removes that glucose through urine. Again... this is not healthy, but it is what happens to cause fat loss without exercise.
It's clear that this episode of hypovolemic shock was very impactful on your life. You lost a lot of weight.
Can you point to an instance when bringing this up has made a meaningful change in someone's health journey? It's an unlikely scenario for most people and the fact of the matter is, MFP is built around a caloric deficit and that should be the focus because barring a tiny percentage of medical conditions that may change the way someone implements CICO, it still works.
How is it impacting your journey NOW? What are you doing differently NOW because of it? Do you count calories? Are you in a deficit? Because if you're not tracking with MFP and believe in deficit, why are you here? It's an honest question.
Hyperglycemic, not hypoglycemic.
I don't have enough detailed information about what everyone does on the MFP boards to say whether it has caused a meaningful change in someone else's journey. There are things like DKA that cause variations in the almighty CICO formula. The specific medical phenomena may be different for different users, but it still remains that CICO is not absolute. I'm hoping other users will understand that. I don't know whether it has helped or not (I get the sense that it has not because those users are unwilling to accept that CICO is not absolute).
I do count calories, and I am eating in a deficit. That alone is not enough for me, as I am doing other things to manage my health beyond calorie counting. I'm losing weight at a safe rate, not just due to CICO, but because of a combination of all factors. Counting calories is an important piece of the puzzle, but it isn't the only piece.
Where did you get hyper/hypoglycemic from? I was referring to the shock syndrome that you would have incurred from losing that much fluid in your body that rapidly, or hypovolemia.
I'm glad it's working for you because I can't imagine the lasting damage that left on your body. That aside, CICO still works. If you don't believe that, you should find a forum that specializes in medical conditions, rather than CICO.
Sorry, I thought you were trying to write hypoglycemia and misspelled it.
I've not experienced any long-term negative effects from that particular issue, which happened almost 16 years ago. CICO does work for me, but not as absolutely as many users believe (maybe it works perfectly for them, maybe not... they seem to imply it does).0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »I'm fascinated with cortisol levels right now. I've had a significant amount of trauma in my life the last 2 months. I'm also type 1 diabetic. I went to my endocrinologist this week to help with my suddenly out of control high blood sugars. I also asked her about the 8 pounds I gained almost overnight despite diligently counting calories, weighing food, exercising, etc. The weight gain, high blood sugars are all stress/cortisol induced. She gave a very scientific explanation of how excess cortisol causes weight gain even when you do not change your eating habits. So I'm still weighing my food and eating at a deficit but I'm also actively trying to reduce cortisol levels.PeachyCarol wrote: »None cause (effect) weight, though some can influence (affect) it, if people don't change how they eat.
That seems to have been adequately addressed in this thread...
as well as the myriad of others saying exactly the same thing.
You feel that they've been adequately addressed? I see so many thyroid and PCOS threads with misinformation in them every day on this forum. Both conditions lead to marginal weight issues, but you wouldn't think that from some of what you see here.
Neither of them necessarily call for a special diet, except by choice either.
I know I've seen studies to back up what I'm saying. I'll try to find them in a bit and post them.
This discussion about cortisol is very interesting to me, as I want to understand it better.
I don't know a lot about it, to be honest. I'm hoping someone with more knowledge weighs in. Perhaps @usmcmp?
I'm quite interested. This time of year, my job is incredibly stressful, but I often have my best losses around now.
Do you find that having a lot going on in your life actually makes it easier to meet your other goals? I often experience that during higher stress situations. It's like I focus more on the things I CAN control when work is very crazy and those things include my calorie and fitness goals. I've speculated that having a regulated life helps control my overall stress level.
Usually, yes. Right now, I'm still figuring out this whole "two-kid parenting" thing, work is blowing up, and some other issues are causing me to not focus as much as I'd like.0 -
I've had a few health issues in my life that have affected my weight, either the CI or CO which has made may weight go up or down.
I lived my life as an undiagnosed celiac for 35+ years. I did not experience weight loss though. Celiac appeared to affect my weight very little beyond the inflammation.
When I went gluten free a few years ago I lost weight, about 20 lbs. I may have been eating less since I felt better. I tend to eat for energy and after going GF I had more energy. I also started eating more sugars to make up for the normal baked goods I hcould no longer have. It was a case of "you can't have it so you want it more". Because of that, I think my weight loss was partially caused by reduced inflammation and improved health.
I also had untreated hypothroidism for about 15 years. Hashimoto's. t may have contributed to the slow creep of weight gain, but I was able to lose weight fairly effortlessly when I tried CI<CO with clean eating (tosca reno style). I regained the weight the instant I reintroduced processed carbs.
I also had ITP which would lead to fairly severe anemia but I lost weight then. I was too tired to bother with eating.
I tend to have high growth hormone which is seen in an above normal insulin like growth factor-1 (IGF1). It isn't high enough for acromegaly, and I don't have a pituitary growth, but it is usually a high normal or above normal. I attribute my easy ability to put on muscle to this. I have always been able to make muscle gains much faster than the average woman. I am strong even when I haven't used weights in a couple of years. I guess this could be seen as helping me gain weight (muscle) but helping me lose weight too.
I had a back injury that resulted in paralysis (neuropathy) down one leg. I was doing P90x at the time and had to stop all workouts for a few months. I lost 10lbs with two weeks of the injury. Water weight? Shock to the body? Who knows why. It wasn't from decreasing calories though. I was eating the same as I did while doing P90x.
I was put on hyrdocortisone and fludricortisone for a year to deal with low levels of cortisol and postural hypotension (I became faint when I stood or sat up). I gained 20 lbs that year and my blood glucose levels became prediabetic. Once I discovered the prediebets, I weaned myself off the steroids (which I think I should have never accepted in the first place). The steroids helped with energy but it became very easy to gain weight.
Now I am dealing with prediabetes. I eat a very LCHF diet to treat it and my body likes that. I lost 30-35lbs in three months while eating 1500 calories per day (+ or - 200). It was almost like my body breathed a sigh of relief and quckly went back to the shape it should be.0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
A slower rate for which group, older or younger? I'm not disagreeing, it's just not clear to me which you meant.. 0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
I don't think that's purely physiological but based mainly on reduced natural activity, reduced muscle mass and more eating tbh0 -
I've also wondered if the naturally thin might be the outliers, being relatively inefficient at processing calories. They apparently can take in more CI without the corresponding weight gain. The overweight then would be efficient calorie consumers. Great for surviving famine, of course. Not so handy in abundance.0
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And, to the extent that it is physiological, it's a much, much smaller difference than people tend to assign to it. It's pretty trivially easy to overcome, not some great millstone around their neck.How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
I don't think that's purely physiological but based mainly on reduced natural activity, reduced muscle mass and more eating tbh0 -
This idea of inefficiency is the idea behind diet pills like Orlistat, which bind the fats so they can't be digested. I personally find however that the hunger drive quickly compensates for the loss of fat calories.
Plus, as fat is supposed to be satiating, you're losing that aspect.0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.0 -
I've also wondered if the naturally thin might be the outliers, being relatively inefficient at processing calories. They apparently can take in more CI without the corresponding weight gain. The overweight then would be efficient calorie consumers. Great for surviving famine, of course. Not so handy in abundance.
Right? Darned evolution and it's sticky problems in the era of technology and abundance... We've gone and erased Natural Selection. At least in the first world. No longer does the child with a genetic "flaw" (using that term only in relation to how inefficient caloric processing would affect a child in a hunter/gatherer situation as our ancestors had, not like it's wrong really) get left to die while those who are heartier and more capable of surviving that famine survive to procreate. It's very very interesting to see what human morality and empathy have done to the genome. Not bad, just amazing.
That would be a great discussion to have (how killing natural selection has shaped today's gene pool) about how we came to be as we are today, with such a high obesity rate standing right beside a whole slew of people who consume the heck out of food and stay skinny (read: all my friends)0 -
As someone who's third standard deviation in all sorts of ways, I get that there are outliers. That said, the metabolic range for the overwhelming majority of the population is fairly narrow for those of similar size.CoffeeNCardio wrote: »I've also wondered if the naturally thin might be the outliers, being relatively inefficient at processing calories. They apparently can take in more CI without the corresponding weight gain. The overweight then would be efficient calorie consumers. Great for surviving famine, of course. Not so handy in abundance.
Right? Darned evolution and it's sticky problems in the era of technology and abundance... We've gone and erased Natural Selection. At least in the first world. No longer does the child with a genetic "flaw" (using that term only in relation to how inefficient caloric processing would affect a child in a hunter/gatherer situation as our ancestors had, not like it's wrong really) get left to die while those who are heartier and more capable of surviving that famine survive to procreate. It's very very interesting to see what human morality and empathy have done to the genome. Not bad, just amazing.
That would be a great discussion to have (how killing natural selection has shaped today's gene pool) about how we came to be as we are today, with such a high obesity rate standing right beside a whole slew of people who consume the heck out of food and stay skinny (read: all my friends)0 -
How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.
Your TDEE drops about 100 cals per decade, but how much of that is due to lifestyle changes and reduced muscle mass is open to debate...my personal opinion is that it's all of it so can be compensated for by building muscle0 -
This is not a discussion about short term medical crisis which could result in death leading to weight loss, which is what DKA is no? Therefore it is not relevant to a sustainable, long term, health improving weight loss forum. I wasn't even involved or poking around the forums at the time that discussion originally came up and I am already sick to the back teeth of it being trotted out as if it should be a consideration in every single thread about being struggling to lose. The weight loss is a side effect of a short term medical emergency and from what I can gather is mostly about dehydration.
As for the OP, CICO is king always. There are conditions and medications that can complicate working out how that equation works for the individual but gathering data over 6-8 weeks and doing some basic maths can nail it down specifically enough for most people to have success losing/maintaining/gaining weight.
I have been on and off psychoactive medications over the last 3 years and I gained a bunch of weight onto my already overweight body due to increased appetite (mirtazapine being the most marked and I subsequently discovered it's used in cats as an appetite stimulant!). So the medication didn't cause my weight gain but it was a contributing factor for sure. I am currently off medication mostly and am doing my best to work on my relationship with food and change my habits enough that when I probably inevitably have to be medicated again I at least have a fighting chance of not ending up where I was before weight wise.
So medical conditions are a factor but knowledge about CICO is essential. Really it should be part of biology classes at school, perhaps it is and I'm just forgetting!0 -
PeachyCarol wrote: »First let me say I know this can be a delicate topic, so I'd really hope to keep this discussion as civil as possible.
For example, I have hypothyroidism, but I know that undiagnosed hypothyroidism is only responsible for a slowed metabolism which accounts for a minor weight gain. Overall caloric intake will ultimately determine how much weight is gained before diagnosis.
Some people with conditions which account for only minor metabolic slow downs gain a lot of weight and it's frustrating for them, so that's why I'd like the discussion to tread lightly.
With that in mind...
A lot of medical issues/medications effect weight and are mentioned on the boards frequently. But there are a lot of misunderstandings and misconceptions surrounding them and their ultimate impact on weight loss.
I know we have members of the medical and scientific communities among us, I'm hoping they weigh in on this thread with some real knowledge to get information out there.
I should mention that this thread is for conditions which impact weight in any way, including those which include rapid weight loss.
For example, I have celiac disease. When it reached a crisis point before diagnosis, I lost 30 pounds in 2 months due to malabsorption issues. It was not a pleasant experience, I literally was not fully digesting food or liquid and was constantly dehydrated. My body turned to its fat stores for energy. At the time, I had a starting weigh of 160 pounds.
So, weigh in (see what I did there?) with your experiences and expertise so we can, together, separate fact from fiction!
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midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »tincanonastring wrote: »EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »Sabine_Stroehm wrote: »Liftng4Lis wrote: »PeachyCarol wrote: »Another type of fiction is that certain drugs cause weight gain. Well... yes and no. They don't directly just magically produce weight gain. They either lower metabolic rate or increase appetite, but that would only account for a certain margin of gain. Gains beyond that point come down to consumption.
Fiction is a loaded word, but it scans nicely with fact, so I went with it. I'd like this thread to explore the real causes of weight gain or loss with medical conditions as you did with explaining what happened to your friend there.
I find when we truly break these things down, it leads to understanding the component issues so that they can be addressed.
BOOM!
It's disturbing to so often see people say "blah blah" caused my weight gain. NO, eating too much causes weight gain. You may have different caloric needs now, for whatever reason, but it still comes down to CICO.
People attribute their weight gain to many things, don't they? I see threads here all the time where new jobs or break ups "caused" weight gain.
I don wonder if we truly know the effect of some medicines, however. So I'll reserve comment on those.
I do believe that with some conditions caloric needs may not remain constant, thus making it even harder to find the sweet spot for losing.
Yes. People blame all sorts of things on weight gain. On the opposite side of the coin, (I'll use myself as an example), when going through my second divorce with my husband (two young kids), I had dropped 40 pounds in 3 months. I was to a very, unhealthy weight for my size and it was a very scary time, when I could actually see this. The point is that "divorce" didn't make me lose weight. NOT eating did. Again, it comes down to CICO.
Calorie needs are never constant, they are affected by such a variety of factors that CICO isn't as simple as many seem to present here.
It's like saying it is all due to breathing and oxidation reactions! (Which is true.) But it doesn't explain how that is regulated.
What part of the CICO equation describes HOW your divorce affected HOW MUCH you ate?
Imagine if we could reduce all autopsy to "well the heart stopped, and then the brain signal stopped too". How is important. Oh, but it all comes down to heart and brain function!!
CICO is only part of the process and a complex part at that.
PS - glad you recovered.
I think this is something I, and others, may neglect to factor in adequately whenever we address the latest repeat of derp in an effort to stop it in its tracks
Bears thinking on
+1
When trying to simplify a message to someone who clearly doesn't have even a basic understanding of calorie management, we often don't convey the nuances behind the equation.
This is my point as well.
It seems to me that your point is that CICO doesn't actually apply in some cases, whereas the nuances are actually about how to determine the CI and CO sides of the equation.
CICO is not clearly defined in every thread where it is used. Explaining the nuances behind the equation, as you are using it, would go a long way. Most users seem to imply (but rarely explicitly state) that the CO part of CICO is RMR + exercise. In that case, my example is of weight loss not explained by CICO. If the definition of CO is expanded to include excretion of energy through pee, poop, and vomiting; then it is included in CICO. Most users don't seem to recognize that as part of CICO, though, while exclaiming there is nothing possible outside of that almighty equation.
It all comes down to absolutes. Many users on MFP use absolute responses when it comes to things like CICO, which dismisses a lot of known circumstances. Even if 80%-90% of users can use the simple CICO, it still isn't fair to the other users who are asking for help and "shouted down" because their experiences don't match CICO and MFP masses just want to call them liars.
Please this is not in any way helpful to the majority of people, and frankly, someone in an emergency medical situation would not be posting on a message board for advice.
Your situation is not in ANY way applicable.
When trying to purposely lose body fat, CICO is the only explanation need. Yes, it can be more complex than it appears on the surface, but you are not being helpful in the least by pointing out medical emergencies here.0 -
I have Thyriod disease anybody else with it is welcome to add me xx0
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How about maturity? A whole bunch of systems start working differently. For instance, bone growth and remodelling slows down. My friends in their thirties notice that weight does not drop as fast as when they were younger when they switch to a fasted diet.
CICO still rules, IMO, but at a slower rate.
What does that mean, does not drop as fast as when they are younger? I'm 37 and I haven't had any special problems losing weight compared to my 20's.
Your TDEE drops about 100 cals per decade, but how much of that is due to lifestyle changes and reduced muscle mass is open to debate...my personal opinion is that it's all of it so can be compensated for by building muscle
The algorithms adjust for age though, so if I'm calculating my TDEE on a regular basis the added noise from my age would be compensated for. I might have to eat 1800 cals to lose weight vs. 2000 cals (just using for conversation), but the act of losing at a deficit is the same, no?
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I had full on metabolic syndrome
High blood pressure
Type 2 diabetic
Weight
Cholesterol
The whole enchilada
Ha
Calorie deficit in the confines of limited simple sugars with exercise was the best medicine per my doctor. Metformin can supposedly help weight loss. But soon after I started losing weight and went on a lower carb diet I no longer needed Metformin. So I can't say it helps or hinders weight loss for me. Diet and exercise definitely helped.
All of those lifestyle related conditions are gone now.
A healthy diet of fibrous veggies and meat worked well for me.
I'm lucky. Some are hit much harder by medications and some can't diet away health issues
I wish the best to those people and those that love them.0
This discussion has been closed.
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