Training for fat loss vs. training for muscle/strength gain
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Not ninerbuff or robertw486 but you might find this article interesting. It gives background on various protein studies and the final takeaway is this:Take Home Messages
• There is normally no advantage to consuming more than 0.82g/lb (1.8g/kg) of protein per day to preserve or build muscle once you’re past the novice level as a natural trainee. This already includes a mark-up, since most research finds no more benefits after 0.64 g/lb.
• Optimal protein intake decreases with training age, because your body becomes more efficient at preventing protein breakdown resulting from training and less protein is needed for the increasingly smaller amount of muscle that is built after each training session.
It's worth noting that Eric Helms, Lyle McDonald and Alan Aragon all disagree pretty strongly with Menno's findings in that article.
@AnvilHead, isn't there an interview with Menno and Helms that discusses this? I can't get to it right now but I feel like I've seen it.
Here's Eric's response on his Facebook page - very long but worth reading, and he cites several relevant studies.0 -
mz_getskinny wrote: »When I was lifting and losing I was doing high rep-lower weight with extensive cardio on my off days. Now that I'm trying to increase strength I'm lifting super heavy-lower reps and not as much cardio. And I've upped my calories significantly. Not sure if that's the proper way to do it, but that's the approach I've been taking and so far so good.
while cutting ensure you get enough protein, lift heavy, and ensure your deficit isn't too large to retain as much muscle as possible. It is best to lift heavy while cutting as it is more muscle sparing that higher rep, and you can increase strength while cutting this way.
Correct.
When it comes to this program aspect, most trainees get it completely wrong. They lighten up the weights, perform higher reps and include more isolation lifts in their plan thinking that "heavy weights and low reps builds muscle" while "light weights and high reps burns fat". In reality, this type of cutting phase workout is completely misguided and counterproductive.
There's only two things you can do with your muscles: you can make them bigger and you can make them smaller. But changing up your rep schemes and exercise selection in order to structure a "muscle definition routine" really makes no sense at all.
Achieving a high degree of "muscle tone" is simply a matter of having good muscular development along with low body fat levels.
So, your muscle definition workout really should be structured in the exact same way as your "bulking" workout. Your goal should be to provide the most powerful stimulus to your muscles that you can so that you can maintain as much lean muscle during your cutting phase as possible. From there, let your diet and cardio strip off the fat.
If you go the "light weight high reps" route, all you really do is end up providing a weaker stimulus to your muscles and increase the chances of LBM loss during your cutting program.
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@elite_nal When you say structured the same way do you mean for both bulking and cutting you should lift heavy for less reps exactly the same?0
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Yeah, I'm confused as to whether hypertrophy range is fine for both. It's lighter weight/higher rep compared to strength range, but it's not the kind of low weight people talk about that doesn't really grow muscle.0
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The last time I was cutting, in order to get lean enough for a bulk, I cut out ALL hypertrophy work. I just ran 5x5 until I stalled and at that point the cut was about done. Looking back I don't know if that was the smartest idea. My thought was that I wouldn't be able to get myself into a deficit with all that volume and a 4 day split. Obviously 5x5 became very taxing anyway.
When I cut after this bulk I'm definitely going to keep the same program/split and reduce volume as needed.0 -
tillerstouch wrote: »tillerstouch wrote: »High reps low weight is typically used for muscle endurance when you train for muscle endurance your muscles tend to get leaner. Sets of 5 reps is typically used for strength building and sets of 10 typically used for size.
No. Muscle is lean. Period. There is no fat muscle.
The point was simply that high reps is not used for building strength or muscle size. High reps is used for muscle endurance which typically does not see a big increase in muscle size or increased strength and could result in muscles looking smaller.
Sure your muscle is not literally lean but when you have low body fat and muscles that have been trained for endurance you typically look "lean" vs someone who has trained their muscles for size or strength you migjt say looks "bulked". For example look at kali muscle very little body fat but I don't think anyone is calling him lean....
If OP wants to retain muscle size and or strength high reps low weight isn't the answer for them. If their goal is to keep muscle endurance up then they should continue with high reps.
My point was and still is valid why you're trying to discredit me or feel the need to correct me I'm not sure... if your ego needs it that bad then yes you're right muscle cannot be literally lean.
All this, this is SILLY. Ignore it for accurate information.0 -
mz_getskinny wrote: »When I was lifting and losing I was doing high rep-lower weight with extensive cardio on my off days. Now that I'm trying to increase strength I'm lifting super heavy-lower reps and not as much cardio. And I've upped my calories significantly. Not sure if that's the proper way to do it, but that's the approach I've been taking and so far so good.
while cutting ensure you get enough protein, lift heavy, and ensure your deficit isn't too large to retain as much muscle as possible. It is best to lift heavy while cutting as it is more muscle sparing that higher rep, and you can increase strength while cutting this way.
Correct.
When it comes to this program aspect, most trainees get it completely wrong. They lighten up the weights, perform higher reps and include more isolation lifts in their plan thinking that "heavy weights and low reps builds muscle" while "light weights and high reps burns fat". In reality, this type of cutting phase workout is completely misguided and counterproductive.
There's only two things you can do with your muscles: you can make them bigger and you can make them smaller. But changing up your rep schemes and exercise selection in order to structure a "muscle definition routine" really makes no sense at all.
Achieving a high degree of "muscle tone" is simply a matter of having good muscular development along with low body fat levels.
So, your muscle definition workout really should be structured in the exact same way as your "bulking" workout. Your goal should be to provide the most powerful stimulus to your muscles that you can so that you can maintain as much lean muscle during your cutting phase as possible. From there, let your diet and cardio strip off the fat.
If you go the "light weight high reps" route, all you really do is end up providing a weaker stimulus to your muscles and increase the chances of LBM loss during your cutting program.
THIS, however, is a great post. I'd follow this information for your purpose of fat loss without losing your muscle.0 -
@elite_nal When you say structured the same way do you mean for both bulking and cutting you should lift heavy for less reps exactly the same?cafeaulait7 wrote: »Yeah, I'm confused as to whether hypertrophy range is fine for both. It's lighter weight/higher rep compared to strength range, but it's not the kind of low weight people talk about that doesn't really grow muscle.
Yes, hypertrophy range is fine for both.
But there's no definite answer that will be optimal for every person in every situation, we can still come up with some pretty reliable guidelines by taking a quick look at the science and logic of muscle growth.
First off, there are 2 main types of muscle hypertrophy that can take place: myofibrillar hypertrophy and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. When determining how many reps to build muscle, this distinction is important.
Myofibrillar hypertrophy refers to an actual increase of the muscle tissue itself as the body adds more actin and myosin proteins to the muscle fiber. This results in a direct gain of true “dry” muscle.
Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy refers to an overall increase in non-contractile muscle cell fluid. Although this type of hypertrophy will cause the muscles to temporarily appear larger and fuller, there is no increase in strength and the size gains will quickly dissipate with inactivity.
There may be some practical benefit to sarcoplasmic hypertrophy in the short term, but when designing an effective bodybuilding program the core focus should always be on producing myofibrillar gains.
Here's what I'd suggest avoiding in terms of optimal rep range if you are trying to maximize lean muscle gains...
*3 Reps Or Lower - Go lower than 3 reps and you'll primarily experience neural adaptations that improve strength and power rather than actual muscle size.
*10 Reps Or Higher - Go too far beyond 10 and the emphasis shifts onto improvements in endurance rather than muscle size.
But don't get me wrong here, you'll still gain muscle size even if you do perform 3 reps or 10+ reps, but it just won't be optimal.
In my opinion, the "sweet spot" here for maximizing actual lean muscle growth is about 5-7 reps per set. This is a great rep range for size as it maximizes gains in myofibrillar hypertrophy (actual dense muscle rather than fluid increases) and also allows you to generate a high level of intensity since the sets are short and explosive.
This means you'll want to choose a weight that you can perform at least 5 reps with, but that is heavy enough that you can't go beyond 7. This is a great rep range for hypertrophy and should be used on most exercises, with the exception of those with very short ranges of motion (like shrugs or calf raises) or those that place the joints in a more vulnerable position (like flyes or side laterals). Go with about 8-10 reps for those movements.
Now, let’s be clear here: This is just an overall guideline and should not be treated as an absolute figure.
Depending on your exact body type, rep speed, mindset etc. the numbers can vary a bit. I’m not saying that 4 reps can’t work, or that if you do 11 reps the world is going to implode on you. I’m simply aiming to give an overall recommendation that will work optimally for the majority of people in the majority of situations.
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OP - do you currently follow a structured lifting program?
The problem with working out when aggressively cutting is that you can not handle the same level of volume that you would when bulking/adding musicle...0 -
i would also add that when cutting you want to keep protein higher, and then when bulking you want to get majority of cals from carbs and lower protein a bit….0
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@elite_nal When you say structured the same way do you mean for both bulking and cutting you should lift heavy for less reps exactly the same?
I believe he is saying that you should go for blend of strength training and hypertrophy ….I would suggest looking into PHUL, great program.0 -
@ndj1979 I've been changing things quite frequently as I get bored quite quickly. I had been doing 5/3/1 for four weeks but the five sets of 10 rep assistance work was a bit mind numbing. I've been giving the intermediate plan on this http://anthonymychal.com/2012/02/solutions-for-the-skinny-fat-ectomorph-part-iii-programming-and-training/ a go this week, which I quite like. Although it specifically says on there someone like me should be starting with the beginner plan. I just rely on the gym a lot to fill time as well as get better at stuff, so reducing the number of days I go in is hard for me to comprehend. I don't do the farmer walks on that by the way because I just feel awkward about carrying weights onto a treadmill. And I'm replacing hip thrusts with hip bridges, because thrusting my hips in a public place just seems sort of wrong. Also splitting chin ups with pull ups as I want to get better at both.
@elite_nal Are there any online plans that you think best uses those rep ranges? Are the 5x5/starting strength programs ideal?0 -
My priorities on a cut are a more focused specificity and training as hard as I can without getting injured. This question comes up a lot, and the most common response I see is to keep doing whatever you have been doing as long as you can. This appeals to the principle of specificity, which states that you should follow the path most directly related to your primary goal. A powerlifter can't give up all of their frequent low-rep work or they will lose too much strength. A bodybuilder can't give up all of their volume and direct work on minor muscles or they will lose too much mass. However, you can't fill the tank up halfway and expect to get as far as a full tank of fuel, so eventually the reality is that you have to start compromising somewhere. At this point, this is when I prefer to be more conservative with my training because in calorie deficit your recovery is compromised, and it is a lot easier to get hurt. It takes less to maintain than build, so I leave the overreaching and PR quests for another time.
If you keep your cuts short and your deficit reasonable, you may not need to compromise much, but you will have to decide whether the intensity, volume, frequency, or weight-on-bar is the most important to you individually. Lyle McDonald suggests here that volume and frequency should be the first things to reduce if needed:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html/
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html
This is what I normally follow, but with that said, anecdotally you can find plenty of successful bodybuilders that swear by keeping volume high and dropping intensity and/or weight on bar. In my own experience, I have had to do two cuts that involved zero strength training (due to injuries I could not do any heavy lifting). I compromised by raising my volume really high with many sets of 10+ reps. Of course my strength went to s***, but I was very pleased with the lean mass retention on both of those cuts.0 -
@rybo @jacksonpt Do you do (or have done) one of those 5x5/5x3/5,3,1 programmes?
@ninerbuff @robertw486 I've seen all sorts of recommendations on what constitutes adequate protein levels. For me it seems to range from 120-150g. Is 2.2g per kg adequate do you think?
I did 5x5 when I first started lifting, and have done several versions of 5/3/1 (modified for my goals/needs)0 -
The plan isn't bad at all. Just don't fall for the "ectomorph" categorization. Somatotypes are myth and were developed by a psychiatrist and not a physiologist.@ndj1979 I've been changing things quite frequently as I get bored quite quickly. I had been doing 5/3/1 for four weeks but the five sets of 10 rep assistance work was a bit mind numbing. I've been giving the intermediate plan on this http://anthonymychal.com/2012/02/solutions-for-the-skinny-fat-ectomorph-part-iii-programming-and-training/ a go this week, which I quite like. Although it specifically says on there someone like me should be starting with the beginner plan. I just rely on the gym a lot to fill time as well as get better at stuff, so reducing the number of days I go in is hard for me to comprehend. I don't do the farmer walks on that by the way because I just feel awkward about carrying weights onto a treadmill. And I'm replacing hip thrusts with hip bridges, because thrusting my hips in a public place just seems sort of wrong. Also splitting chin ups with pull ups as I want to get better at both.
@elite_nal Are there any online plans that you think best uses those rep ranges? Are the 5x5/starting strength programs ideal?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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I am copying and pasting this... BRAVO!mz_getskinny wrote: »When I was lifting and losing I was doing high rep-lower weight with extensive cardio on my off days. Now that I'm trying to increase strength I'm lifting super heavy-lower reps and not as much cardio. And I've upped my calories significantly. Not sure if that's the proper way to do it, but that's the approach I've been taking and so far so good.
while cutting ensure you get enough protein, lift heavy, and ensure your deficit isn't too large to retain as much muscle as possible. It is best to lift heavy while cutting as it is more muscle sparing that higher rep, and you can increase strength while cutting this way.
Correct.
When it comes to this program aspect, most trainees get it completely wrong. They lighten up the weights, perform higher reps and include more isolation lifts in their plan thinking that "heavy weights and low reps builds muscle" while "light weights and high reps burns fat". In reality, this type of cutting phase workout is completely misguided and counterproductive.
There's only two things you can do with your muscles: you can make them bigger and you can make them smaller. But changing up your rep schemes and exercise selection in order to structure a "muscle definition routine" really makes no sense at all.
Achieving a high degree of "muscle tone" is simply a matter of having good muscular development along with low body fat levels.
So, your muscle definition workout really should be structured in the exact same way as your "bulking" workout. Your goal should be to provide the most powerful stimulus to your muscles that you can so that you can maintain as much lean muscle during your cutting phase as possible. From there, let your diet and cardio strip off the fat.
If you go the "light weight high reps" route, all you really do is end up providing a weaker stimulus to your muscles and increase the chances of LBM loss during your cutting program.
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@richln Thanks, interesting to note it's possible to cut back on training by up to two thirds to maintain mass.
@jacksonpt Did you find the five sets of five and the rate of expected progression a bit much? From what I've read about SL it seems to expect me to add 15kg to the bar each week, and are deadlifts really so taxing you can only do them so little? I do them a couple of times a week and usually totally fine for more soon enough.
@ninerbuff Yeah, I had a feeling those terms might just be another one of those myths that overly complicates things. But the skinny fat thing got my attention and then I looked at the plan and just thought it looked quite decent. I might have to swap front squats for more back squats though as I just can't grip comfortably on that and my wrists hurt now. I have a feeling front squats might be something for someone a bit more advanced or at least with a bit more wrist flexibility/strength? I'd try 5x5/5x3 but the chances of having both the squat rack and bench press available in my gym in the same session is not that good. And I'm not sure if substituting bench press for dumbbell bench press is advised due to the whole not being consistent thing. Wonder if chest dips are an acceptable alternative? That area of my gym gets underused, but I couldn't add weight unfortunately so I guess that would be a poor way to progress. Also just remembered starting strength has an olympic lift in it, snatches I think? Beginners attempting olympic lifting without a coach just seems silly.0 -
@richln Thanks, interesting to note it's possible to cut back on training by up to two thirds to maintain mass.
@jacksonpt Did you find the five sets of five and the rate of expected progression a bit much? From what I've read about SL it seems to expect me to add 15kg to the bar each week, and are deadlifts really so taxing you can only do them so little? I do them a couple of times a week and usually totally fine for more soon enough.
@ninerbuff Yeah, I had a feeling those terms might just be another one of those myths that overly complicates things. But the skinny fat thing got my attention and then I looked at the plan and just thought it looked quite decent. I might have to swap front squats for more back squats though as I just can't grip comfortably on that and my wrists hurt now. I have a feeling front squats might be something for someone a bit more advanced or at least with a bit more wrist flexibility/strength? I'd try 5x5/5x3 but the chances of having both the squat rack and bench press available in my gym in the same session is not that good. And I'm not sure if substituting bench press for dumbbell bench press is advised due to the whole not being consistent thing. Wonder if chest dips are an acceptable alternative? That area of my gym gets underused, but I couldn't add weight unfortunately so I guess that would be a poor way to progress. Also just remembered starting strength has an olympic lift in it, snatches I think? Beginners attempting olympic lifting without a coach just seems silly.
Not Jackson, but what I did was Madcow stronglifts during a cut, only 3 working sets and only one of those at the top weight, much easier to keep progressing that was, or even switching to 3x50 -
@richln Thanks, interesting to note it's possible to cut back on training by up to two thirds to maintain mass.
@jacksonpt Did you find the five sets of five and the rate of expected progression a bit much? From what I've read about SL it seems to expect me to add 15kg to the bar each week, and are deadlifts really so taxing you can only do them so little? I do them a couple of times a week and usually totally fine for more soon enough.
@ninerbuff Yeah, I had a feeling those terms might just be another one of those myths that overly complicates things. But the skinny fat thing got my attention and then I looked at the plan and just thought it looked quite decent. I might have to swap front squats for more back squats though as I just can't grip comfortably on that and my wrists hurt now. I have a feeling front squats might be something for someone a bit more advanced or at least with a bit more wrist flexibility/strength? I'd try 5x5/5x3 but the chances of having both the squat rack and bench press available in my gym in the same session is not that good. And I'm not sure if substituting bench press for dumbbell bench press is advised due to the whole not being consistent thing. Wonder if chest dips are an acceptable alternative? That area of my gym gets underused, but I couldn't add weight unfortunately so I guess that would be a poor way to progress. Also just remembered starting strength has an olympic lift in it, snatches I think? Beginners attempting olympic lifting without a coach just seems silly.
Honestly, I don't remember... this was several years ago. I remember switching to 5/3/1 when I got to the point that I couldn't recovery fast enough to keep up with the 5x5 workouts. I'd bet at least some of that was due to my being in a deficit.0 -
@erickirb That seems like a much more realistic rate of progression in the longer term. The numbers on strengthstandards has me going from 40 to 150kg squat in 23 sessions.
@jacksonpt Did you make a good rate of progress on 5x5 before you changed? It seems to suggest some quite dramatic increases in strength and wondering if I'm underestimating what I could do.0 -
@erickirb That seems like a much more realistic rate of progression in the longer term. The numbers on strengthstandards has me going from 40 to 150kg squat in 23 sessions.
@jacksonpt Did you make a good rate of progress on 5x5 before you changed? It seems to suggest some quite dramatic increases in strength and wondering if I'm underestimating what I could do.
Most of the really fast "progress" has more to do with learning the lifts, technique, and getting your body used to lifting. Once you get beyond that and are lifting weights appropriate for your strength/ability, progress will slow dramatically regardless of the program you on.0 -
@jacksonpt I've been lifting since 2012 so I guess that means I'm past the 'noobie gains' phase? Not that I've made much progress in regards to strength.0
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@jacksonpt I've been lifting since 2012 so I guess that means I'm past the 'noobie gains' phase? Not that I've made much progress in regards to strength.
Then you're doing something wrong.
Have you been on an established program?0 -
@jacksonpt I've been doing a lot of things wrong, I know my faults. I've been on many programs, too many. Just trying to find one that I finally stick to for a long enough period of time to measure progress on. It's more been a case of lifting weights because I just want to lift weights rather than really focusing on progressing. I mean I have progressed because what I can lift now is more than I can lift previously. I can squat 55kg for 8 reps for example where not so long ago I could only manage 40kg for 5 reps. But upper body I lag behind.0
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mz_getskinny wrote: »When I was lifting and losing I was doing high rep-lower weight with extensive cardio on my off days. Now that I'm trying to increase strength I'm lifting super heavy-lower reps and not as much cardio. And I've upped my calories significantly. Not sure if that's the proper way to do it, but that's the approach I've been taking and so far so good.
while cutting ensure you get enough protein, lift heavy, and ensure your deficit isn't too large to retain as much muscle as possible. It is best to lift heavy while cutting as it is more muscle sparing that higher rep, and you can increase strength while cutting this way.
Correct.
When it comes to this program aspect, most trainees get it completely wrong. They lighten up the weights, perform higher reps and include more isolation lifts in their plan thinking that "heavy weights and low reps builds muscle" while "light weights and high reps burns fat". In reality, this type of cutting phase workout is completely misguided and counterproductive.
There's only two things you can do with your muscles: you can make them bigger and you can make them smaller. But changing up your rep schemes and exercise selection in order to structure a "muscle definition routine" really makes no sense at all.
Achieving a high degree of "muscle tone" is simply a matter of having good muscular development along with low body fat levels.
So, your muscle definition workout really should be structured in the exact same way as your "bulking" workout. Your goal should be to provide the most powerful stimulus to your muscles that you can so that you can maintain as much lean muscle during your cutting phase as possible. From there, let your diet and cardio strip off the fat.
If you go the "light weight high reps" route, all you really do is end up providing a weaker stimulus to your muscles and increase the chances of LBM loss during your cutting program.
Thanks Elite and Erick. I have been lifting heavy for awhile and I often read that the weight should be lessened on a cut with high reps. For me, when I tried that, I lost my hard earned muscle which, for a female, is VERY hard to rebuild. Thanks for the correction.0 -
I would Google Protein Sparing Modified Fast (PSMF) and Rapid Fat Loss Diet by Lyle McDonald (he also has a site). There's a PSMF group on Reddit and it's discussed in weight training fora.
I don't why someone marked this post as spam. It's information relevant to the topic. The purpose of this forum is to share it. Unfortunately, the groups on this site about it have gone quiet.
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ShapingTheLaw wrote: »mz_getskinny wrote: »When I was lifting and losing I was doing high rep-lower weight with extensive cardio on my off days. Now that I'm trying to increase strength I'm lifting super heavy-lower reps and not as much cardio. And I've upped my calories significantly. Not sure if that's the proper way to do it, but that's the approach I've been taking and so far so good.
while cutting ensure you get enough protein, lift heavy, and ensure your deficit isn't too large to retain as much muscle as possible. It is best to lift heavy while cutting as it is more muscle sparing that higher rep, and you can increase strength while cutting this way.
Correct.
When it comes to this program aspect, most trainees get it completely wrong. They lighten up the weights, perform higher reps and include more isolation lifts in their plan thinking that "heavy weights and low reps builds muscle" while "light weights and high reps burns fat". In reality, this type of cutting phase workout is completely misguided and counterproductive.
There's only two things you can do with your muscles: you can make them bigger and you can make them smaller. But changing up your rep schemes and exercise selection in order to structure a "muscle definition routine" really makes no sense at all.
Achieving a high degree of "muscle tone" is simply a matter of having good muscular development along with low body fat levels.
So, your muscle definition workout really should be structured in the exact same way as your "bulking" workout. Your goal should be to provide the most powerful stimulus to your muscles that you can so that you can maintain as much lean muscle during your cutting phase as possible. From there, let your diet and cardio strip off the fat.
If you go the "light weight high reps" route, all you really do is end up providing a weaker stimulus to your muscles and increase the chances of LBM loss during your cutting program.
Thanks Elite and Erick. I have been lifting heavy for awhile and I often read that the weight should be lessened on a cut with high reps. For me, when I tried that, I lost my hard earned muscle which, for a female, is VERY hard to rebuild. Thanks for the correction.
Wow this is excellent advise! It took me lots of searching and experimenting to figure out what "cutting" or leaning out workout differs from bulking. You are probably the 2nd person here on mfp who could explain it do simply. As a woman, I guard or protect my hard-earned muscle. It took me two years to lose weight lbs and build muscle. I made lots of mistakes like too much cardio when I was trying to lose weight when I should have been lifting heavy. I'll be 49 years old this summer. I'm in a good place now thanks to people like you on mfp who have helped and encouraged me. I love having muscles! I feel young and like a real bad *kitten*!0 -
I meant to quote Elite's advise above. And I feel like a bad *kitten*, not a kitten.0
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