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Arguing Semantics - sugar addiction
Replies
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brianpperkins wrote: »OK ... so I've been reading along with this thread about arguing the meaning of the wording sugar 'addiction' ... and while I agree that it's not a good idea to use words loosely, I can relate to a time when it FELT LIKE I might have an addiction to certain substances.
I can remember asking my doctor about it because this is what happened in regards to 2 specific substances ...
1 ... nicotine from cigarettes
2 ... Snickers candy bars
In the first case, I had been a cigarette user for over 25 years with varying daily quantities from very casual to 1-1/2 packs a day to trying to quit the habit. I was in my 10th year of trying to stop smoking and was extremely frustrated by the ever increasing compulsion to smoke that grew daily the longer I abstained from it. Every time I quit I'd do very well for a couple of weeks, and then it would start to get harder and harder. As it happened, I had a check-up appointment with my doctor about 4 months into the last attempt and I told him about my constant mental obbsession and desire for a cigarette ... How I felt like I was going insane from my perceived 'need' for one. He decided that it wasn't a mouth habit that was holding me hostage, but an addiction to nicotine. The solution he provided was to go back to having some nicotine, but not in the form of a cigarette, and at the lowest dose I could manage. ... He put me on nicotine containing chewing gum. That was in 1990, and it only took one prescription to wean me off it to the point that it wasn't on my mind all the time (I made that one prescription last 6 months instad of 1 by cutting the tablets into quarters and eventually only using a quarter of a piece in several days.) It took another several months before I didn't try to get second hand smoke into my lungs as a means of getting some and, it was another 3 or 4 years before I no longer felt like a smoke during specific times ... like when under a lot of stress, or after a really good sex or out with friends in the bars or after a festive meal.
In the second case, after I gave up the cigarette habit, I got into the new habit of buying a snack out of the vending machine in the afternoon. Sometimes my choice was a Snickers candy bar. Other times it was nuts, either M&M Peanuts or Planters Salted Peanuts. Pretty soon I noticed a pattern. If I had a Snickers bar, I would crave another bar the next day at snack time, but that didn't happen with the other choices. Then, if I went ahead and chose to have the Snickers bar, I would desire one later on in the day as well, so sometimes I bought 2 of them to be able to satisfy that urge later on. To this day, if I have a Snickers bar I will still crave to have a second one later on, and sometimes I start to crave other sweets as well and end up eating 6 candy bars instead of 1.
Now ... were both addictions of some sort, or not?
My doctor used the term nicotine addiction in the one case, in the other he told me to just stop buying Snickers candy bars since I seemed to have a low tolerance for controlling cravings when I had some. .... But, isn't an addiction to something also described as having a low or no tolerance for controlling the craving?
I can site a third example of low tolerance for abstaining from a cravings ... carb dense foods. Yes, I know that sugar is a carb. I also know that Snicker's candy bars are loaded with both sugar and fat (chocolate, nougat, caramel, nuts) ... yet I can eat a greasy hamburger or slice of meat and cheese pizza and not crave another, but if I eat french bread, or a chocolate chip cookie ... watch out! I will, later on ... in about 60 - 90 minutes, be feeling the strong desire to have something like ... a lot of fruit, more bread or cookies, noodles, ... and get no satisfaction of the desire to continue eating more even though I am not hungry. Needless to say, even though I am full to the point of feeling like I'll be sick to my stomach. ... Is that gorging steming from my lack of will or from some sort of chemical reaction inside my brain from specific foods?
So ... to end this long story ... Call it semantics, but if it feels like I cannot control it, then it feels like an addiction. My solution? ... abstinance.
Notice the very specific candy you claimed addiction to ... a brand made from common ingredients. So you liked the flavor and have little willpower ... that does not mean you had an addition to anything in a Snickers. If you were truly addicted to a chemical in any of the foods you mention, you would seek that chemical from any source ... not just the ones you happen to like the flavor of.
I did not claim addiction ... did you read and understand what I wrote? I said it felt like an addiction ... and it came from other sources and not just the snickers ... the snickers happened to be the one I spoke with my doctor about.
An addiction won't feel like one brand. That is a like ... a preference ... and there is a huge difference between that and an addiction.0 -
Stay out of chit chat or fun and games section then.singingflutelady wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »OK ... so I've been reading along with this thread about arguing the meaning of the wording sugar 'addiction' ... and while I agree that it's not a good idea to use words loosely, I can relate to a time when it FELT LIKE I might have an addiction to certain substances.
I can remember asking my doctor about it because this is what happened in regards to 2 specific substances ...
1 ... nicotine from cigarettes
2 ... Snickers candy bars
In the first case, I had been a cigarette user for over 25 years with varying daily quantities from very casual to 1-1/2 packs a day to trying to quit the habit. I was in my 10th year of trying to stop smoking and was extremely frustrated by the ever increasing compulsion to smoke that grew daily the longer I abstained from it. Every time I quit I'd do very well for a couple of weeks, and then it would start to get harder and harder. As it happened, I had a check-up appointment with my doctor about 4 months into the last attempt and I told him about my constant mental obbsession and desire for a cigarette ... How I felt like I was going insane from my perceived 'need' for one. He decided that it wasn't a mouth habit that was holding me hostage, but an addiction to nicotine. The solution he provided was to go back to having some nicotine, but not in the form of a cigarette, and at the lowest dose I could manage. ... He put me on nicotine containing chewing gum. That was in 1990, and it only took one prescription to wean me off it to the point that it wasn't on my mind all the time (I made that one prescription last 6 months instad of 1 by cutting the tablets into quarters and eventually only using a quarter of a piece in several days.) It took another several months before I didn't try to get second hand smoke into my lungs as a means of getting some and, it was another 3 or 4 years before I no longer felt like a smoke during specific times ... like when under a lot of stress, or after a really good sex or out with friends in the bars or after a festive meal.
In the second case, after I gave up the cigarette habit, I got into the new habit of buying a snack out of the vending machine in the afternoon. Sometimes my choice was a Snickers candy bar. Other times it was nuts, either M&M Peanuts or Planters Salted Peanuts. Pretty soon I noticed a pattern. If I had a Snickers bar, I would crave another bar the next day at snack time, but that didn't happen with the other choices. Then, if I went ahead and chose to have the Snickers bar, I would desire one later on in the day as well, so sometimes I bought 2 of them to be able to satisfy that urge later on. To this day, if I have a Snickers bar I will still crave to have a second one later on, and sometimes I start to crave other sweets as well and end up eating 6 candy bars instead of 1.
Now ... were both addictions of some sort, or not?
My doctor used the term nicotine addiction in the one case, in the other he told me to just stop buying Snickers candy bars since I seemed to have a low tolerance for controlling cravings when I had some. .... But, isn't an addiction to something also described as having a low or no tolerance for controlling the craving?
I can site a third example of low tolerance for abstaining from a cravings ... carb dense foods. Yes, I know that sugar is a carb. I also know that Snicker's candy bars are loaded with both sugar and fat (chocolate, nougat, caramel, nuts) ... yet I can eat a greasy hamburger or slice of meat and cheese pizza and not crave another, but if I eat french bread, or a chocolate chip cookie ... watch out! I will, later on ... in about 60 - 90 minutes, be feeling the strong desire to have something like ... a lot of fruit, more bread or cookies, noodles, ... and get no satisfaction of the desire to continue eating more even though I am not hungry. Needless to say, even though I am full to the point of feeling like I'll be sick to my stomach. ... Is that gorging steming from my lack of will or from some sort of chemical reaction inside my brain from specific foods?
So ... to end this long story ... Call it semantics, but if it feels like I cannot control it, then it feels like an addiction. My solution? ... abstinance.
Notice the very specific candy you claimed addiction to ... a brand made from common ingredients. So you liked the flavor and have little willpower ... that does not mean you had an addition to anything in a Snickers. If you were truly addicted to a chemical in any of the foods you mention, you would seek that chemical from any source ... not just the ones you happen to like the flavor of.
I did not claim addiction ... did you read and understand what I wrote? I said it felt like an addiction ... and it came from other sources and not just the snickers ... the snickers happened to be the one I spoke with my doctor about.
I miss snickers so much. My favourite chocolate bar
no it's not the sugar I won't eat, I can't eat nuts lol0 -
Stay out of chit chat or fun and games section then.singingflutelady wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »OK ... so I've been reading along with this thread about arguing the meaning of the wording sugar 'addiction' ... and while I agree that it's not a good idea to use words loosely, I can relate to a time when it FELT LIKE I might have an addiction to certain substances.
I can remember asking my doctor about it because this is what happened in regards to 2 specific substances ...
1 ... nicotine from cigarettes
2 ... Snickers candy bars
In the first case, I had been a cigarette user for over 25 years with varying daily quantities from very casual to 1-1/2 packs a day to trying to quit the habit. I was in my 10th year of trying to stop smoking and was extremely frustrated by the ever increasing compulsion to smoke that grew daily the longer I abstained from it. Every time I quit I'd do very well for a couple of weeks, and then it would start to get harder and harder. As it happened, I had a check-up appointment with my doctor about 4 months into the last attempt and I told him about my constant mental obbsession and desire for a cigarette ... How I felt like I was going insane from my perceived 'need' for one. He decided that it wasn't a mouth habit that was holding me hostage, but an addiction to nicotine. The solution he provided was to go back to having some nicotine, but not in the form of a cigarette, and at the lowest dose I could manage. ... He put me on nicotine containing chewing gum. That was in 1990, and it only took one prescription to wean me off it to the point that it wasn't on my mind all the time (I made that one prescription last 6 months instad of 1 by cutting the tablets into quarters and eventually only using a quarter of a piece in several days.) It took another several months before I didn't try to get second hand smoke into my lungs as a means of getting some and, it was another 3 or 4 years before I no longer felt like a smoke during specific times ... like when under a lot of stress, or after a really good sex or out with friends in the bars or after a festive meal.
In the second case, after I gave up the cigarette habit, I got into the new habit of buying a snack out of the vending machine in the afternoon. Sometimes my choice was a Snickers candy bar. Other times it was nuts, either M&M Peanuts or Planters Salted Peanuts. Pretty soon I noticed a pattern. If I had a Snickers bar, I would crave another bar the next day at snack time, but that didn't happen with the other choices. Then, if I went ahead and chose to have the Snickers bar, I would desire one later on in the day as well, so sometimes I bought 2 of them to be able to satisfy that urge later on. To this day, if I have a Snickers bar I will still crave to have a second one later on, and sometimes I start to crave other sweets as well and end up eating 6 candy bars instead of 1.
Now ... were both addictions of some sort, or not?
My doctor used the term nicotine addiction in the one case, in the other he told me to just stop buying Snickers candy bars since I seemed to have a low tolerance for controlling cravings when I had some. .... But, isn't an addiction to something also described as having a low or no tolerance for controlling the craving?
I can site a third example of low tolerance for abstaining from a cravings ... carb dense foods. Yes, I know that sugar is a carb. I also know that Snicker's candy bars are loaded with both sugar and fat (chocolate, nougat, caramel, nuts) ... yet I can eat a greasy hamburger or slice of meat and cheese pizza and not crave another, but if I eat french bread, or a chocolate chip cookie ... watch out! I will, later on ... in about 60 - 90 minutes, be feeling the strong desire to have something like ... a lot of fruit, more bread or cookies, noodles, ... and get no satisfaction of the desire to continue eating more even though I am not hungry. Needless to say, even though I am full to the point of feeling like I'll be sick to my stomach. ... Is that gorging steming from my lack of will or from some sort of chemical reaction inside my brain from specific foods?
So ... to end this long story ... Call it semantics, but if it feels like I cannot control it, then it feels like an addiction. My solution? ... abstinance.
Notice the very specific candy you claimed addiction to ... a brand made from common ingredients. So you liked the flavor and have little willpower ... that does not mean you had an addition to anything in a Snickers. If you were truly addicted to a chemical in any of the foods you mention, you would seek that chemical from any source ... not just the ones you happen to like the flavor of.
I did not claim addiction ... did you read and understand what I wrote? I said it felt like an addiction ... and it came from other sources and not just the snickers ... the snickers happened to be the one I spoke with my doctor about.
I miss snickers so much. My favourite chocolate bar no it's not the sugar I won't eat, I can't eat nuts lol
Hahahahahaha0 -
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brianpperkins wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »OK ... so I've been reading along with this thread about arguing the meaning of the wording sugar 'addiction' ... and while I agree that it's not a good idea to use words loosely, I can relate to a time when it FELT LIKE I might have an addiction to certain substances.
I can remember asking my doctor about it because this is what happened in regards to 2 specific substances ...
1 ... nicotine from cigarettes
2 ... Snickers candy bars
In the first case, I had been a cigarette user for over 25 years with varying daily quantities from very casual to 1-1/2 packs a day to trying to quit the habit. I was in my 10th year of trying to stop smoking and was extremely frustrated by the ever increasing compulsion to smoke that grew daily the longer I abstained from it. Every time I quit I'd do very well for a couple of weeks, and then it would start to get harder and harder. As it happened, I had a check-up appointment with my doctor about 4 months into the last attempt and I told him about my constant mental obbsession and desire for a cigarette ... How I felt like I was going insane from my perceived 'need' for one. He decided that it wasn't a mouth habit that was holding me hostage, but an addiction to nicotine. The solution he provided was to go back to having some nicotine, but not in the form of a cigarette, and at the lowest dose I could manage. ... He put me on nicotine containing chewing gum. That was in 1990, and it only took one prescription to wean me off it to the point that it wasn't on my mind all the time (I made that one prescription last 6 months instad of 1 by cutting the tablets into quarters and eventually only using a quarter of a piece in several days.) It took another several months before I didn't try to get second hand smoke into my lungs as a means of getting some and, it was another 3 or 4 years before I no longer felt like a smoke during specific times ... like when under a lot of stress, or after a really good sex or out with friends in the bars or after a festive meal.
In the second case, after I gave up the cigarette habit, I got into the new habit of buying a snack out of the vending machine in the afternoon. Sometimes my choice was a Snickers candy bar. Other times it was nuts, either M&M Peanuts or Planters Salted Peanuts. Pretty soon I noticed a pattern. If I had a Snickers bar, I would crave another bar the next day at snack time, but that didn't happen with the other choices. Then, if I went ahead and chose to have the Snickers bar, I would desire one later on in the day as well, so sometimes I bought 2 of them to be able to satisfy that urge later on. To this day, if I have a Snickers bar I will still crave to have a second one later on, and sometimes I start to crave other sweets as well and end up eating 6 candy bars instead of 1.
Now ... were both addictions of some sort, or not?
My doctor used the term nicotine addiction in the one case, in the other he told me to just stop buying Snickers candy bars since I seemed to have a low tolerance for controlling cravings when I had some. .... But, isn't an addiction to something also described as having a low or no tolerance for controlling the craving?
I can site a third example of low tolerance for abstaining from a cravings ... carb dense foods. Yes, I know that sugar is a carb. I also know that Snicker's candy bars are loaded with both sugar and fat (chocolate, nougat, caramel, nuts) ... yet I can eat a greasy hamburger or slice of meat and cheese pizza and not crave another, but if I eat french bread, or a chocolate chip cookie ... watch out! I will, later on ... in about 60 - 90 minutes, be feeling the strong desire to have something like ... a lot of fruit, more bread or cookies, noodles, ... and get no satisfaction of the desire to continue eating more even though I am not hungry. Needless to say, even though I am full to the point of feeling like I'll be sick to my stomach. ... Is that gorging steming from my lack of will or from some sort of chemical reaction inside my brain from specific foods?
So ... to end this long story ... Call it semantics, but if it feels like I cannot control it, then it feels like an addiction. My solution? ... abstinance.
Notice the very specific candy you claimed addiction to ... a brand made from common ingredients. So you liked the flavor and have little willpower ... that does not mean you had an addition to anything in a Snickers. If you were truly addicted to a chemical in any of the foods you mention, you would seek that chemical from any source ... not just the ones you happen to like the flavor of.
I did not claim addiction ... did you read and understand what I wrote? I said it felt like an addiction ... and it came from other sources and not just the snickers ... the snickers happened to be the one I spoke with my doctor about.
An addiction won't feel like one brand. That is a like ... a preference ... and there is a huge difference between that and an addiction.
Ah ... another good word ... preference!0 -
brianpperkins wrote: »brianpperkins wrote: »OK ... so I've been reading along with this thread about arguing the meaning of the wording sugar 'addiction' ... and while I agree that it's not a good idea to use words loosely, I can relate to a time when it FELT LIKE I might have an addiction to certain substances.
I can remember asking my doctor about it because this is what happened in regards to 2 specific substances ...
1 ... nicotine from cigarettes
2 ... Snickers candy bars
In the first case, I had been a cigarette user for over 25 years with varying daily quantities from very casual to 1-1/2 packs a day to trying to quit the habit. I was in my 10th year of trying to stop smoking and was extremely frustrated by the ever increasing compulsion to smoke that grew daily the longer I abstained from it. Every time I quit I'd do very well for a couple of weeks, and then it would start to get harder and harder. As it happened, I had a check-up appointment with my doctor about 4 months into the last attempt and I told him about my constant mental obbsession and desire for a cigarette ... How I felt like I was going insane from my perceived 'need' for one. He decided that it wasn't a mouth habit that was holding me hostage, but an addiction to nicotine. The solution he provided was to go back to having some nicotine, but not in the form of a cigarette, and at the lowest dose I could manage. ... He put me on nicotine containing chewing gum. That was in 1990, and it only took one prescription to wean me off it to the point that it wasn't on my mind all the time (I made that one prescription last 6 months instad of 1 by cutting the tablets into quarters and eventually only using a quarter of a piece in several days.) It took another several months before I didn't try to get second hand smoke into my lungs as a means of getting some and, it was another 3 or 4 years before I no longer felt like a smoke during specific times ... like when under a lot of stress, or after a really good sex or out with friends in the bars or after a festive meal.
In the second case, after I gave up the cigarette habit, I got into the new habit of buying a snack out of the vending machine in the afternoon. Sometimes my choice was a Snickers candy bar. Other times it was nuts, either M&M Peanuts or Planters Salted Peanuts. Pretty soon I noticed a pattern. If I had a Snickers bar, I would crave another bar the next day at snack time, but that didn't happen with the other choices. Then, if I went ahead and chose to have the Snickers bar, I would desire one later on in the day as well, so sometimes I bought 2 of them to be able to satisfy that urge later on. To this day, if I have a Snickers bar I will still crave to have a second one later on, and sometimes I start to crave other sweets as well and end up eating 6 candy bars instead of 1.
Now ... were both addictions of some sort, or not?
My doctor used the term nicotine addiction in the one case, in the other he told me to just stop buying Snickers candy bars since I seemed to have a low tolerance for controlling cravings when I had some. .... But, isn't an addiction to something also described as having a low or no tolerance for controlling the craving?
I can site a third example of low tolerance for abstaining from a cravings ... carb dense foods. Yes, I know that sugar is a carb. I also know that Snicker's candy bars are loaded with both sugar and fat (chocolate, nougat, caramel, nuts) ... yet I can eat a greasy hamburger or slice of meat and cheese pizza and not crave another, but if I eat french bread, or a chocolate chip cookie ... watch out! I will, later on ... in about 60 - 90 minutes, be feeling the strong desire to have something like ... a lot of fruit, more bread or cookies, noodles, ... and get no satisfaction of the desire to continue eating more even though I am not hungry. Needless to say, even though I am full to the point of feeling like I'll be sick to my stomach. ... Is that gorging steming from my lack of will or from some sort of chemical reaction inside my brain from specific foods?
So ... to end this long story ... Call it semantics, but if it feels like I cannot control it, then it feels like an addiction. My solution? ... abstinance.
Notice the very specific candy you claimed addiction to ... a brand made from common ingredients. So you liked the flavor and have little willpower ... that does not mean you had an addition to anything in a Snickers. If you were truly addicted to a chemical in any of the foods you mention, you would seek that chemical from any source ... not just the ones you happen to like the flavor of.
I did not claim addiction ... did you read and understand what I wrote? I said it felt like an addiction ... and it came from other sources and not just the snickers ... the snickers happened to be the one I spoke with my doctor about.
An addiction won't feel like one brand. That is a like ... a preference ... and there is a huge difference between that and an addiction.
Ah ... another good word ... preference!
A preference, quite often taste based in the claims of MFP members, is not an addiction. What chemical compound would one be addicted to in your scenario? Why not seek whatever chemical it is from other sources, not certain breads and Snickers?
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booksandchocolate12 wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Right now, this area feels more like a trap than an improvement. Like a place to corral all the real and useful information so that it's out-of-the-way.
I would welcome some clarification on this from the mod team.
Agreed. I don't really see the point of a "debate" section if only like-minded people are posting in it.
The writing was on the wall once MFP started putting up "nutrition" blogs (e.g. health benefits of clean eating and vegetarianism) without any solid cited science behind the claims in the blogs and basically disallowed any meaningful feedback.0 -
To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
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summerkissed wrote: »To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
I'm willing to concede that food addiction exists - your description of your mother's behavior is analogous to the behavior of an alcoholic who drinks away his/her kids' lunch money.
I am sure I am not the only person here who has been legitimately addicted to something, legal or illegal (mine fall into the latter category, I'll admit it). I know firsthand what addiction looks like. Your mother's behavior with food looks like an addiction.
Enabling the use of the term "addiction" as a figure of speech is unhelpful. If nothing else, the treatment for an honest-to-gosh addiction is completely different than a treatment for what, in many cases, boils down to a case of the it's delicious-and-I-want-it's.
I make poor decisions when it comes to cheesecake. We do not keep cheesecake in the house, because I will eat that sucker for breakfast, lunch, and dinner until it is gone.
I am not addicted to cheesecake. I do not mainline cream cheese and granulated sugar when I am out of cheesecake. I do not shake while eating cannoli and simultaneously kvetching that it sucks to stoop so low as having to eat this cheap ricotta filling to get a fix, man, and the cops really need to keep their noses out of the new Cheesecake Factory.....
<quick break to go looking for cream cheese>
Anyway, there's a difference, and it's more than semantics. There are a lot of new posters who believe they are addicted to sugar, and they're just not. They don't blow rent money on sugar. They don't snort pixie sticks off the steering wheel on the way to work in the morning. They don't need a stint in glucose rehab. Helping people like this to get a grip on their relationship with food looks very different than treating an addiction. That's why it's more than just semantics.
/end soapbox0 -
I'm one of those who insists there's a difference between physical addiction like heroin, cocaine and, yes, nicotine, and behavioral addiction like food, sex, gambling and sugar. You're not addicted to the actual food, for example, but to the pleasure that eating it gives you.
They are not the same.0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »I'm one of those who insists there's a difference between physical addiction like heroin, cocaine and, yes, nicotine, and behavioral addiction like food, sex, gambling and sugar. You're not addicted to the actual food, for example, but to the pleasure that eating it gives you.
They are not the same.
The behavior exhibited by a "sugar addict" is different than a food addict. How many times have you seen a sugar addict eat broccoli with reckless abandon because it's the only sugar in the house? Ever see someone eat a bag of confectioner's in one sitting? Why do sugar addict not blow rent money on a ten-pound'er of light brown?
(Hint: not an addiction...)0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »I'm one of those who insists there's a difference between physical addiction like heroin, cocaine and, yes, nicotine, and behavioral addiction like food, sex, gambling and sugar. You're not addicted to the actual food, for example, but to the pleasure that eating it gives you.
They are not the same.
No they are not the 'same' as addiction is broken into the 2 categories, but doesn't change the fact they are both addictions and very very hard to beat they cause positive highs followed by extreme lows....anyway read this it explains it better than I ever could
http://www.asam.org/for-the-public/definition-of-addiction
0 -
summerkissed wrote: »To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
Sex addiction and shopping addiction are not recognized by the DSM - gambling addiction was added to the DSM V as the only acknowledged (so far) behavioral, rather than substance addiction. By those standards, I believe one day there could be an eating addiction - food addiction would imply that the addiction to the substance which chemically is not true - acknowledged by psychology, but I feel the diagnosis would be far more limited than people use it on themselves.
There are already diagnoses that describe problem behavior with food more accurately than eating addiction would. Interestingly, many of the behaviors of the common binging disorders would generally be exacerbated by engaging in elimination behavior such as cutting out all added sugar foods as some professed sugar addicts do.0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »I'm one of those who insists there's a difference between physical addiction like heroin, cocaine and, yes, nicotine, and behavioral addiction like food, sex, gambling and sugar. You're not addicted to the actual food, for example, but to the pleasure that eating it gives you.
They are not the same.
Agreed.
As discussed a bit earlier in the thread, people who claim to be addicted to sugar likely have a preference for sweet things and/or habits around comfort and eating sweet things. I'm guilty of this - for a long time, if I was feeling bad, I'd eat a pint of ice cream and watch the Princess Bride.
Was I addicted to the sugar in ice cream? No. It just tasted yummy and was a small comfort when things were bad.
Eating addiction is not sugar addiction and people who try to equate them are doing a disservice to both the people who have an eating addiction as well as the people hiding behind sugar addiction as an explanation for their likely unhealthy relationship with food.0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »I'm one of those who insists there's a difference between physical addiction like heroin, cocaine and, yes, nicotine, and behavioral addiction like food, sex, gambling and sugar. You're not addicted to the actual food, for example, but to the pleasure that eating it gives you.
They are not the same.
Agreed.
As discussed a bit earlier in the thread, people who claim to be addicted to sugar likely have a preference for sweet things and/or habits around comfort and eating sweet things. I'm guilty of this - for a long time, if I was feeling bad, I'd eat a pint of ice cream and watch the Princess Bride.
Was I addicted to the sugar in ice cream? No. It just tasted yummy and was a small comfort when things were bad.
Eating addiction is not sugar addiction and people who try to equate them are doing a disservice to both the people who have an eating addiction as well as the people hiding behind sugar addiction as an explanation for their likely unhealthy relationship with food.
But were you addicted to The Princess Bride it is that inconceivable?0 -
summerkissed wrote: »To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
Sex addiction and shopping addiction are not recognized by the DSM - gambling addiction was added to the DSM V as the only acknowledged (so far) behavioral, rather than substance addiction. By those standards, I believe one day there could be an eating addiction - food addiction would imply that the addiction to the substance which chemically is not true - acknowledged by psychology, but I feel the diagnosis would be far more limited than people use it on themselves.
There are already diagnoses that describe problem behavior with food more accurately than eating addiction would. Interestingly, many of the behaviors of the common binging disorders would generally be exacerbated by engaging in elimination behavior such as cutting out all added sugar foods as some professed sugar addicts do.
The financial association of DSM-5 panel members within industry continues to be a concern for financial conflict of interest.0 -
summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
Sex addiction and shopping addiction are not recognized by the DSM - gambling addiction was added to the DSM V as the only acknowledged (so far) behavioral, rather than substance addiction. By those standards, I believe one day there could be an eating addiction - food addiction would imply that the addiction to the substance which chemically is not true - acknowledged by psychology, but I feel the diagnosis would be far more limited than people use it on themselves.
There are already diagnoses that describe problem behavior with food more accurately than eating addiction would. Interestingly, many of the behaviors of the common binging disorders would generally be exacerbated by engaging in elimination behavior such as cutting out all added sugar foods as some professed sugar addicts do.
The financial association of DSM-5 panel members within industry continues to be a concern for financial conflict of interest.
Beyond the DSM, what recommendation would you make for defining disorders then?0 -
summerkissed wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
Sex addiction and shopping addiction are not recognized by the DSM - gambling addiction was added to the DSM V as the only acknowledged (so far) behavioral, rather than substance addiction. By those standards, I believe one day there could be an eating addiction - food addiction would imply that the addiction to the substance which chemically is not true - acknowledged by psychology, but I feel the diagnosis would be far more limited than people use it on themselves.
There are already diagnoses that describe problem behavior with food more accurately than eating addiction would. Interestingly, many of the behaviors of the common binging disorders would generally be exacerbated by engaging in elimination behavior such as cutting out all added sugar foods as some professed sugar addicts do.
The financial association of DSM-5 panel members within industry continues to be a concern for financial conflict of interest.
Ad hominem isn't actually a way to address science. The DSM could be published jointly by Coca Cola and Pepsi with coupons for Snickers, and wouldn't change the fact that a person can not have physical dependence on sugar, nor the ability to withdraw from it outside of death, nor that people do not consume raw sugar when they don't otherwise have access to hyper-palatable foods. Thus, addiction to food as a substance is limited to the way all humans are addicted to it - we starve in its absence.0 -
Not to mention, at the risk of tu quoque, I've hardly seen anyone advocating food addiction without a book or lecture circuit they're selling. Luckily I don't use that as a basis of dismissing them. I do so for their poor science.0
-
summerkissed wrote: »To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
Sex addiction and shopping addiction are not recognized by the DSM - gambling addiction was added to the DSM V as the only acknowledged (so far) behavioral, rather than substance addiction. By those standards, I believe one day there could be an eating addiction - food addiction would imply that the addiction to the substance which chemically is not true - acknowledged by psychology, but I feel the diagnosis would be far more limited than people use it on themselves.
There are already diagnoses that describe problem behavior with food more accurately than eating addiction would. Interestingly, many of the behaviors of the common binging disorders would generally be exacerbated by engaging in elimination behavior such as cutting out all added sugar foods as some professed sugar addicts do.
This brings an interesting argument to the question of if semantics is an important discussion. It's like misdiagnosing something, treating it as such, and then wondering why the cure isn't working. Naming things appropriately, defining what the issue is, becomes an integral part of figuring out the best approach to countering it.0 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »I'm one of those who insists there's a difference between physical addiction like heroin, cocaine and, yes, nicotine, and behavioral addiction like food, sex, gambling and sugar. You're not addicted to the actual food, for example, but to the pleasure that eating it gives you.
They are not the same.
Agreed.
As discussed a bit earlier in the thread, people who claim to be addicted to sugar likely have a preference for sweet things and/or habits around comfort and eating sweet things. I'm guilty of this - for a long time, if I was feeling bad, I'd eat a pint of ice cream and watch the Princess Bride.
Was I addicted to the sugar in ice cream? No. It just tasted yummy and was a small comfort when things were bad.
Eating addiction is not sugar addiction and people who try to equate them are doing a disservice to both the people who have an eating addiction as well as the people hiding behind sugar addiction as an explanation for their likely unhealthy relationship with food.
But were you addicted to The Princess Bride it is that inconceivable?
Aha! Silly me. That was clearly what was happening.
I did learn other important things, though, like never getting involved in a land war in Asia.0 -
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Since we've brought up The Princess Bride, and since we're talking about semantics, I feel compelled to post this:
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snickerscharlie wrote: »I'm one of those who insists there's a difference between physical addiction like heroin, cocaine and, yes, nicotine, and behavioral addiction like food, sex, gambling and sugar. You're not addicted to the actual food, for example, but to the pleasure that eating it gives you.
They are not the same.
Agreed.
As discussed a bit earlier in the thread, people who claim to be addicted to sugar likely have a preference for sweet things and/or habits around comfort and eating sweet things. I'm guilty of this - for a long time, if I was feeling bad, I'd eat a pint of ice cream and watch the Princess Bride.
Using the post as a springboard, since I think we agree.
This makes me think of how I used to grab a pint of ice cream (although I'd normally not finish it) and watch Law & Order reruns for the same purpose. And it would work, and I still kind of want to eat when I watch L&O (and find it comforting). Am I addicted to L&O? No, and I'm also not addicted to ice cream -- instead, I find it's one of the easiest sweet foods I really like to moderate, so long as I don't eat it out of the pint, of course.
So often people claim "addiction" when there are some really obvious reasons they are eating more than intended, such as eating out of the package. But the biggest reason I think most people who claim food-related addictions are not (I do think a small percentage of people likely have an eating addiction), is that it is so specific. No one is addicted to pinot noir but not cabernet or beer (although countless alcoholics have tried that sort of approach -- I'll just give up hard liquor or the like). Claiming you are addicted to Peanut M&Ms and not Snickers or cake would make just as little sense, but I will usually eat way more than I mean to if I start grabbing the peanut M&Ms at work (so I don't), and I have no issues with the other two foods.0 -
The alcohol, tobacco and gambling industries now all have to pay costs and have rules about advertising they have to contribute $$$ to prevention programs medical research.......hmmmm at what point do you think fast food giants, soft drink companies, cola cola and the likes should start becoming liable for the ingredients? the advertising? The massive burden on mental health and medical systems? The burden on family......Is it just me or is it a coincidence that the foods these addictions are stemming from are all processed and unregulated multi national giants with massive profits with a f$&king lot to lose??? These addictions aren't linked to wholesome foods close to natural now are they? I mean how many years did it take the tobacco industry to admit they had purposely added certain chemicals that were addictive?? Is there something being hidden from us? Why are even as we become more health conscious that these massive companies are moving to make the so called 'health' foods more processed with added sugar/salt preservatives? But make it look healthy? You only have to walk down the health food isle and read some of the nutrition panels to work that out.
You can hide under your rocks as long as you want but food/sugar addictions are real my oath they are real.....but there are a lot of people with lots of $$$ who have a vested interest in keeping this quiet for as long as they can!!0 -
nutmegoreo wrote: »summerkissed wrote: »To begin with, I'm a bit dismayed that several of the people who have dismissed sugar addiction arguments as semantics are people who have knowledge or links to psychology. If you think semantics is unimportant and reason to dismiss something, I feel you're frankly doing a real poor job understanding psychology as one of the last big shifts in psychology was the development of cognitive therapy and the cognitive approach. In some ways, cognitive therapy is entirely about semantics - how you label the same behavior is important and matters. How you label it mentally, according to cognitive psychology, does change outcomes. Which I think, even without a cognitive psychology approach, many people on MFP are staunchly against letting people label themselves as sugar addicts - the practical experience and learning that achieving long term weight loss is about a relation with food, and how we view it, ourselves, and our connection to it. Labeling oneself an addict absolutely precludes the possibility of having a healthy relationship with a category of food.
What's more, I do, absolutely, 100% deny that it is a semantics argument when at least once per thread about sugar addiction someone says sugar addiction is real, and that the same areas of the brain light up in reaction to sugar that they do for heroin (which I doubly dislike as an example of compounded bad science because the drug comparison is cocaine - heroin acts on opoid receptors while food and cocaine both do work with dopamine and serotonin). There is almost irony in that some of these people who make that claim want to ride two horses going in opposite directions because they'll also be the ones to say it is an unhelpful semantics argument.
Alcohol addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse (must be cut out completely there's no going back to moderation)
Drug addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-substance abuse(must be cut out completely no moderation)
Sex addiction-so yes it exists? Right?-addiction to a feel/need(can't be cut out completely must be controlled it's a part of life)
Gambling addiction-yes it exists also? Right?-addiction to an out come or a promise of winning/feeling of winning(another with no moderation must be cut out)
Shopping addiction-yes it also exists? Right?-addiction to a feeling of pleasure (can't be cut out completely must learn self control again it's a part of life)
But food or sugar addiction doesn't exist? Hmmmmmmmmm why not?
Addiction is caused by a few things and one of those is to do with how it makes a person feel whilst they are doing the "activity" some of these addictions are by an activity that is not required to live and as such are not able to be controlled by moderation and must be removed they ruin families and lives (alcohol, drugs, gambling) 2 of those is actually a chemical addiction very nasty! (The father of my children was addicted to all 3 of these things) others are things that are required to live (sex, shopping, food) they are everyday activities that still must be performed so learning moderation is a must but when done to excess they also ruin people's families and lives (my mother had a food addiction and at 58 years old still struggles) as kids we went to school with empty lunch boxes because mum ate our lunches while we were in bed asleep, I'm a mum now and I honestly could never send my kids to school hungry. She would eat all the cereal covered in cream and sugar like you have never seen before, bread, anything she could get her hands on we would wake up and not have anything, she was a single mum and she wasn't coping, eating was her way of coping she only did it when we were asleep never in front of us, never in front of anyone it was always behind closed doors. My sister and I ended up hiding food so we had things to take to school. She ended up at OA it helped for a little while but then she would stop going to meetings and bam we would be straight back to square one again. It was a vicious circle of self destruction and very hard for us kids to understand, I mean how could a mum send her kids to school with empty lunch boxes and hungry it really was hard for us.
Vast majority of people with addictions have underlying mental illness issues that lead them down the path of addictions....vast majority of people with serious weight issues also have underlying mental illness issues.
Yes a lot of people say they are "addicted" to sugar....."addicted" to alcohol..... "Addicted" to shopping but really they are just say they like/love it, just as a lover of meat says they are a carnivore (they aren't really just a figure of speech) if it really came down to it they would/could stop it if they needed too i.e. No chocolate in the house miss it but doesn't really matter, no beer left after a hard days work or can't afford it this week they can go without no stress really, can't afford that dress s-@t happens. But others really can't control it and will use lying,cheating,stealing and deceit to obtain what they desire to get that feeling of pleasure.
So yes I know food addiction does exist and it can be exreamly dangerous, damaging to families and relationships even deadly BUT I also think in most cases it's a figure of speech to say they really really like or love something and it's hard to reduce it.
Sex addiction and shopping addiction are not recognized by the DSM - gambling addiction was added to the DSM V as the only acknowledged (so far) behavioral, rather than substance addiction. By those standards, I believe one day there could be an eating addiction - food addiction would imply that the addiction to the substance which chemically is not true - acknowledged by psychology, but I feel the diagnosis would be far more limited than people use it on themselves.
There are already diagnoses that describe problem behavior with food more accurately than eating addiction would. Interestingly, many of the behaviors of the common binging disorders would generally be exacerbated by engaging in elimination behavior such as cutting out all added sugar foods as some professed sugar addicts do.
This brings an interesting argument to the question of if semantics is an important discussion. It's like misdiagnosing something, treating it as such, and then wondering why the cure isn't working. Naming things appropriately, defining what the issue is, becomes an integral part of figuring out the best approach to countering it.
+1.
That was the experience for me. If I still held on to the incorrect belief that I was a food addict then I know I wouldn't have gotten to the correct treatment and intervention that has made such a difference in my life. So, in my case it so wasn't just a case of semantics. It was a case as misdiagnosis...of the self made variety.
This was my experience as well. I started with "I'm addicted to sugar" followed by "I must completely abstain" followed by "I suck because I ate some chocolate so I'm a failure." The guilt and shame that people place upon themselves is not helpful. It's a cycle that is so hard to break because they have been focusing on the wrong things.0 -
A good example of this is kids, young kids with no knowledge of nutrition....why do we have kids throwing tantrums for junk foods, sodas, sweets? Why do kids have hyper outbursts over these foods....then massive downers??? Why do we have behavioral problems linked to additives in these foods?? We don't have these issues with fruit and veg or lean meats?? You argue over is food/sugar addiction real and one of the arguments is its not a chemical addiction but could it actually be just that....could it?? Could it not be a physical addiction could it be a chemical addiction?? The more I think about what we missed out on as kids the more I look deeper into the types of foods consumed the types of food brought? It wasn't a healthy diet at all? What was it about the highly processed, the high sugar, high salt and high fat combined with colors and flavors?0
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summerkissed wrote: »The alcohol, tobacco and gambling industries now all have to pay costs and have rules about advertising they have to contribute $$$ to prevention programs medical research.......hmmmm at what point do you think fast food giants, soft drink companies, cola cola and the likes should start becoming liable for the ingredients? the advertising? The massive burden on mental health and medical systems? The burden on family......Is it just me or is it a coincidence that the foods these addictions are stemming from are all processed and unregulated multi national giants with massive profits with a f$&king lot to lose??? These addictions aren't linked to wholesome foods close to natural now are they? I mean how many years did it take the tobacco industry to admit they had purposely added certain chemicals that were addictive?? Is there something being hidden from us? Why are even as we become more health conscious that these massive companies are moving to make the so called 'health' foods more processed with added sugar/salt preservatives? But make it look healthy? You only have to walk down the health food isle and read some of the nutrition panels to work that out.
You can hide under your rocks as long as you want but food/sugar addictions are real my oath they are real.....but there are a lot of people with lots of $$$ who have a vested interest in keeping this quiet for as long as they can!!
The companies are there to make money though. They react to what the consumer is demanding. When low fat was in demand, they increased sugar to compensate and keep the flavor. No company is going to make foods which are unpalatable. That would tank sales. There are regional differences, where companies alter the ingredients and flavors by country because there are cultural differences. Many fast food companies have healthier options available (restaurants in general), but the consumer needs to make a conscious decision to eat those things.
It was eye opening to me when I actually looked at the nutritional information of some of my favorite places. For years, I refused to look at the nutritional information despite knowing it was there. Part of me recognized that what I would see would be shocking. I'm not hiding under a rock (I know that wasn't directed at any one person here). In fact, I'm further out from under it because I am aware of what my choices are doing. I'm not kidding myself that companies make their products to taste good. If they didn't, that would just be a horrible business plan.
People need to take some level of personal responsibility in what they are consuming. I'm not speaking specifically of what you described about your mother. That is a whole other issue. My personal concern with the general "I'm addicted to sugar" phrase is that it is often used to describe a feeling of helplessness and a sense of being out of control. That is a behavioral issue. To define it as such and to treat it as such will be much more successful for people, compared to commiserating with them and allowing them to continue to feel helpless. For most people here, the power is within them.0 -
I remember one of my most vivid tantrums related to food as a child was about my mom telling me I had eaten too many cucumbers and if I kept eating more I was going to get sick. Didn't matter...I wanted more cukes!!!
Food is not physically or chemically addictive. We do not become dependent on it. I did many many many substance abuse evaluations of inmates in the local jail at my last job. I saw many people in withdrawal and who needed detox. Never and I mean never was it due to a food substance.
I'm fine with a debate, but one done with actual science and knowledge and not someone feelings.
My mom used to bribe us. If we were good in the grocery store we could pick out anything that we wanted. I always chose grapes. I would sit in the cart and not touch them until the cashier passed them back to me. Then I would start eating them. I don't remember this actually, that's how young I was.
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