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Veganism for weight loss

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  • zcb94zcb94 Posts: 4,191Member Member Posts: 4,191Member Member
    zcb94 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll, I apologize for unnecessarily heating up the conversation. Let me explain:
    I don't mind tofu but wouldn't catch myself living on it. I didn't say that no one had a right to enjoy some, though.
    Tempeh sounds to me like the byproduct of someone's high school lab experiment.
    Seitan sounds too much like the name of my mortal enemy. Yikes!
    I'm in no way trying to present my opinion as fact regarding powder, but I wouldn't recommend living on it day in and day out. I snack on it with whole milk for the healthy fat.
    ASCIA says that
    Peanut and tree nut allergy is most common in infants and young children, but may appear for the first time in adults. Peanut allergy often receives greater attention because it is common (3% of infants), exposure is hard to avoid and in some cases even trace amounts can trigger symptoms. Around 20% of cases resolve, and while severity may occasionally lessen with age, around 20% of cases can become worse with time.
    . Please feel free to use this as a springboard for your own research!
    Veggies are usually delicious, but I didn't know that any were sources of protein, and those that are probably had to be GMOed. That's what I meant there.
    I hope I didn't overheat the discussion! :innocent:

    You wouldn't have to live on tofu in order to eat it sometimes for protein. Some vegans eat it often, some sometimes (I'm in this category), and some eat it never.

    Your personal reactions to tempeh and seitan just aren't relevant for anyone besides yourself.

    Like tofu, you wouldn't have to "live on" protein powder to have it sometimes for protein.

    I wouldn't, personally, want to "live on" chicken, but I know many people eat it often and enjoy it. I'm curious as to why you would look at eating tofu or protein powder in such a negative light (other than your personal preferences, which are valid for you, but not of much use for anyone else).

    3% of infants doesn't sound like "a good chunk of the world," especially if 20% of that group resolve over time. This means that relatively few people have a nut allergy and those who do -- and want to be vegan -- can use the other plant sources for protein.

    Many vegetables contain protein, although not in huge concentrations. This isn't due to GMO, it's how they grow. While vegetables themselves probably couldn't allow someone to meet their protein needs, someone who was including them in their diet would get the benefit of the protein in them.

    I'm not sure why you think this is heated. This is a section of the website for discussing nutrition and that's what we're doing.

    What I hear you saying is that you would find it a personal struggle to find palatable options on a vegan diet. While your personal experience is absolutely true for you, I'm responding because you seem to be assuming it would be an issue for others. But there are many people who enjoy plant-based foods and have no trouble meeting their protein needs on foods they enjoy. It doesn't even sound like you have tried some of the foods I mentioned, which is something to keep in mind before you decide that it would be hard to find palatable options as a vegan.
    Hm. You may have a few points there! I'm actually fairly certain that some of those who need to begin veganism for health or moral responsibility would find some of those options gag-worthy, though. While 20% of nut allergies go away, another 20% do not :scream: I might try some of the aforementioned items but must say that to do so isn't really on my bucket list.
  • rainbowbowrainbowbow Posts: 7,497Member Member Posts: 7,497Member Member
    I think veganism can be helpful for weight loss ONLY if the person is switching to a mostly plant based vegan diet (low fat). This works simply because they are eating a higher volume of lower calorie dense foods and may find it difficult to eat the same number of calories they were previously.

    Eating a vegan diet and hitting protein goals without a specific protein item like tofu, tempeh, seitan, powders, etc. may prove very difficult if one is trying to keep calories low enough to allow weight loss.

    In my opinion, one should only switch over to a vegan diet for ethical reasons since we don't have enough information to prove that eating a vegan diet is beneficial specifically for weight loss/long term health.

    Special care must go into planning a vegan diet so that one does not suffer nutritional deficiencies and special care must be taken for consistent supplementation. In addition, as one can still have a varying ratio of calories and macronutrients on a vegan diet stating that a "vegan diet" in general has benefits is too broad of a statement.
    edited February 2016
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    zcb94 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll, I apologize for unnecessarily heating up the conversation. Let me explain:
    I don't mind tofu but wouldn't catch myself living on it. I didn't say that no one had a right to enjoy some, though.
    Tempeh sounds to me like the byproduct of someone's high school lab experiment.
    Seitan sounds too much like the name of my mortal enemy. Yikes!
    I'm in no way trying to present my opinion as fact regarding powder, but I wouldn't recommend living on it day in and day out. I snack on it with whole milk for the healthy fat.
    ASCIA says that
    Peanut and tree nut allergy is most common in infants and young children, but may appear for the first time in adults. Peanut allergy often receives greater attention because it is common (3% of infants), exposure is hard to avoid and in some cases even trace amounts can trigger symptoms. Around 20% of cases resolve, and while severity may occasionally lessen with age, around 20% of cases can become worse with time.
    . Please feel free to use this as a springboard for your own research!
    Veggies are usually delicious, but I didn't know that any were sources of protein, and those that are probably had to be GMOed. That's what I meant there.
    I hope I didn't overheat the discussion! :innocent:

    You wouldn't have to live on tofu in order to eat it sometimes for protein. Some vegans eat it often, some sometimes (I'm in this category), and some eat it never.

    Your personal reactions to tempeh and seitan just aren't relevant for anyone besides yourself.

    Like tofu, you wouldn't have to "live on" protein powder to have it sometimes for protein.

    I wouldn't, personally, want to "live on" chicken, but I know many people eat it often and enjoy it. I'm curious as to why you would look at eating tofu or protein powder in such a negative light (other than your personal preferences, which are valid for you, but not of much use for anyone else).

    3% of infants doesn't sound like "a good chunk of the world," especially if 20% of that group resolve over time. This means that relatively few people have a nut allergy and those who do -- and want to be vegan -- can use the other plant sources for protein.

    Many vegetables contain protein, although not in huge concentrations. This isn't due to GMO, it's how they grow. While vegetables themselves probably couldn't allow someone to meet their protein needs, someone who was including them in their diet would get the benefit of the protein in them.

    I'm not sure why you think this is heated. This is a section of the website for discussing nutrition and that's what we're doing.

    What I hear you saying is that you would find it a personal struggle to find palatable options on a vegan diet. While your personal experience is absolutely true for you, I'm responding because you seem to be assuming it would be an issue for others. But there are many people who enjoy plant-based foods and have no trouble meeting their protein needs on foods they enjoy. It doesn't even sound like you have tried some of the foods I mentioned, which is something to keep in mind before you decide that it would be hard to find palatable options as a vegan.
    Hm. You may have a few points there! I'm actually fairly certain that some of those who need to begin veganism for health or moral responsibility would find some of those options gag-worthy, though. While 20% of nut allergies go away, another 20% do not :scream: I might try some of the aforementioned items but must say that to do so isn't really on my bucket list.

    I'm a non-vegan who sometimes eats tofu and tempeh and really likes them. Haven't found a vegan protein powder I enjoy (so far the ones I've tried either taste bad or don't mix as well as whey), but I have nothing against protein powder and am open-minded that there are better ones I have not tried. Haven't tried seitan yet, but I want to (in this gluten-phobic world the fact it's gluten makes me want to like it), and legumes, grains, nuts, and vegetables are all foods I quite enjoy.

    My biggest issue with becoming vegan isn't that I think that way of eating would be non-palatable or that it would be hard to do healthfully -- I am kind of obsessed with following vegan athletes (NOT freelee the fruitcake or her horrible SO) -- but that I don't currently feel the ethical calling or commitment, and I like dairy and eggs and meat. But I flirt with the idea of vegetarianism often enough that who knows, could happen in the future, and trying to eat plant-based on occasion is both a way of experimenting with it and, more important for now, a way of expanding the foods I eat and livening up my menu.
  • allaboutthefoodallaboutthefood Posts: 796Member Member Posts: 796Member Member
    Veganism is not a diet, it's a life style. It means you will not eat, use or consume any animal products in any way. Just because you may live a vegan lifestyle does not mean you are any healthier than someone who does not live a vegan lifestyle. There are many diet options for vegans, just as there are for non vegans, if you choose to eat a poor diet than you will not be the healthiest you can be. Most vegan's become vegans for ethical reasons and want to live their lives as cruelty free as possible, in no way can this be 100%. Second reason if for the environment and than health, but you can live a very healthy life as a non vegan. I switched to a whole food, grain/plant based lifestyle 4 weeks ago, I gave up all meat, dairy, eggs and cheese. I keep track of my b12, protean (which I do not take any supplements for) maybe when I want to build muscle but for now I am fine, and the other factors I need to watch for. I want to make sure that myself and my family stay within our limits and are not missing out on important nurtrirtinest we need. Everyone needs to find their own balance and what works best for them. For me and the journey I started a year ago, this just seemed right to me, the way to go, the road I was meant to go down. I have seen huge improvement in health issues my son was having, still isn't 100% but it is way better than it was a month ago, My oldest has reported on issues she was having with sleep and her ache is clearing up, my youngest is eating so much better. I no longer have any cravings, I eat when I am hungry and stop when I am full, I am sleeping better and don't feel or get bloated, my hubs says the same thing. I do eat tofu, never thought I would like it, but if it is done right it tastes really good, same with tempeh, but they are highly processed so those foods are only once in a while. I haven't tried the wheat meat but will one day. I tend to stay with whole natural foods and lots of fruit and carbs do not scare me. I have lost 13 pounds in one month, so no issue with weight loss and I am eating way more than I did when I ate animals. I hope you find your balance.
  • vegmebuffvegmebuff Posts: 31,390Member Member Posts: 31,390Member Member
    zcb94 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    I believe there is such a thing, if I remember correctly. I'm not sure if the vegan lifestyle would help or hurt weight loss/ muscles in any way, but I do know that one would have to search extra-hard for palatable protein sources other than meat.

    It wouldn't require a hard search -- vegans can get protein from beans, grains, tofu, tempeh, seitan, and protein powders. I can even get tofu, pre-cooked lentils, tempeh, and vegan protein powders at my local (non-health food) grocery store now. Once these foods are in the diet, protein needs can be rounded out with nuts/nut butters and the protein that is vegetables.
    Keyword: palatable. Although you definitely have a point there regarding some of those items, in my humble opinion, those foods can be described as follows:
    Beans=yum but can cause digestive blues later
    Grains=yum but better known as carbs than protein
    Tofu =Ewww!
    Tempeh=sounds nasty
    Seitan=sounds very nasty, actually downright evil. (Waits for others to get the pun)
    Protein powder=IMO, only good as a snack and with whole milk, which is indeed not vegan. Also causes digestive distress. Meh.
    Nuts/nut butter=yum unless you're allergic to it (which is, like, a good chunk of the world population)
    Vegetable= I didn't even know that, but sounds yuck.

    This is a very subjective rundown.

    Beans = do cause digestive distress for some people, but this often goes away when people get used to the fiber. Even if they do cause distress, smaller amounts can be tolerated by most people.

    Grains = nothing wrong with having carbohydrates mixed with protein.

    Tofu = Your personal dislike for it isn't significant for other people who may enjoy it.

    Tempeh = Not sure how to respond to something "sounding nasty." Liver "sounds nasty" to me, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a perfectly acceptable and nutritious food for people.

    Seitan = Really?

    Protein powder = Again, your opinion of a food or what it is good with isn't that useful for others. I often consume it without whole milk.

    Nuts = A good chunk of the world is allergic to nuts? I'd like to see the statistics on this.

    Vegetables = If all vegetables sound "yuck" to you, then focusing on meeting your own nutritional needs may be more productive than worrying about how vegans have to search "extra-hard" for protein.

    Sorry for the long quoted item...but I LOVE all the items listed! I couldn't imagine enjoying my day without most of these! It just goes to show...we are all pretty, pretty snowflakes lol
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll, I apologize for unnecessarily heating up the conversation. Let me explain:
    I don't mind tofu but wouldn't catch myself living on it. I didn't say that no one had a right to enjoy some, though.
    Tempeh sounds to me like the byproduct of someone's high school lab experiment.
    Seitan sounds too much like the name of my mortal enemy. Yikes!
    I'm in no way trying to present my opinion as fact regarding powder, but I wouldn't recommend living on it day in and day out. I snack on it with whole milk for the healthy fat.
    ASCIA says that
    Peanut and tree nut allergy is most common in infants and young children, but may appear for the first time in adults. Peanut allergy often receives greater attention because it is common (3% of infants), exposure is hard to avoid and in some cases even trace amounts can trigger symptoms. Around 20% of cases resolve, and while severity may occasionally lessen with age, around 20% of cases can become worse with time.
    . Please feel free to use this as a springboard for your own research!
    Veggies are usually delicious, but I didn't know that any were sources of protein, and those that are probably had to be GMOed. That's what I meant there.
    I hope I didn't overheat the discussion! :innocent:

    You wouldn't have to live on tofu in order to eat it sometimes for protein. Some vegans eat it often, some sometimes (I'm in this category), and some eat it never.

    Your personal reactions to tempeh and seitan just aren't relevant for anyone besides yourself.

    Like tofu, you wouldn't have to "live on" protein powder to have it sometimes for protein.

    I wouldn't, personally, want to "live on" chicken, but I know many people eat it often and enjoy it. I'm curious as to why you would look at eating tofu or protein powder in such a negative light (other than your personal preferences, which are valid for you, but not of much use for anyone else).

    3% of infants doesn't sound like "a good chunk of the world," especially if 20% of that group resolve over time. This means that relatively few people have a nut allergy and those who do -- and want to be vegan -- can use the other plant sources for protein.

    Many vegetables contain protein, although not in huge concentrations. This isn't due to GMO, it's how they grow. While vegetables themselves probably couldn't allow someone to meet their protein needs, someone who was including them in their diet would get the benefit of the protein in them.

    I'm not sure why you think this is heated. This is a section of the website for discussing nutrition and that's what we're doing.

    What I hear you saying is that you would find it a personal struggle to find palatable options on a vegan diet. While your personal experience is absolutely true for you, I'm responding because you seem to be assuming it would be an issue for others. But there are many people who enjoy plant-based foods and have no trouble meeting their protein needs on foods they enjoy. It doesn't even sound like you have tried some of the foods I mentioned, which is something to keep in mind before you decide that it would be hard to find palatable options as a vegan.
    Hm. You may have a few points there! I'm actually fairly certain that some of those who need to begin veganism for health or moral responsibility would find some of those options gag-worthy, though. While 20% of nut allergies go away, another 20% do not :scream: I might try some of the aforementioned items but must say that to do so isn't really on my bucket list.

    I'm a non-vegan who sometimes eats tofu and tempeh and really likes them. Haven't found a vegan protein powder I enjoy (so far the ones I've tried either taste bad or don't mix as well as whey), but I have nothing against protein powder and am open-minded that there are better ones I have not tried. Haven't tried seitan yet, but I want to (in this gluten-phobic world the fact it's gluten makes me want to like it), and legumes, grains, nuts, and vegetables are all foods I quite enjoy.

    My biggest issue with becoming vegan isn't that I think that way of eating would be non-palatable or that it would be hard to do healthfully -- I am kind of obsessed with following vegan athletes (NOT freelee the fruitcake or her horrible SO) -- but that I don't currently feel the ethical calling or commitment, and I like dairy and eggs and meat. But I flirt with the idea of vegetarianism often enough that who knows, could happen in the future, and trying to eat plant-based on occasion is both a way of experimenting with it and, more important for now, a way of expanding the foods I eat and livening up my menu.

    If you want to find out how nicely seitan can be done, I'm afraid I'd recommend trying some from some of the more artisianal stores like Whole Foods - as much as I begrudge Whole Foods, they have a very nice vegan pizza that has part made with seitan. My own self made seitan was never up to the snuff of prepackaged stuff, but I didn't particularly care, I made seitan myself for the savings.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Posts: 20,809Member Member Posts: 20,809Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    ARGriffy wrote: »
    I'm watching "vegucated" on Netflix right now! Interesting watch!

    This is an interesting "documentary" and definitely some food for thought. Unfortunately, most of the "facts" that get touted in these types of films, (Vegucated, Fat Sick and Nearly Dead, Forks over Knives, etc) are either far from being actual facts, or usually some kind of agenda biased view of the information that presents conclusions that can't generally be taken from the data.

    I'd love to see a valid, non-propagandic documentary that presents real information that is useful and actionable... but unfortunately, if one exists I have yet to see it.

    Yeah, every vegan group that pulls these "facts" kind of things just causes me to think of the term "lying for Jesus" (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_for_Jesus) because the parallel.

    All I can think is make veganism about the ethics. If you're tricking and lying to human beings to because you believe in animal dignity and ethical treatment, you've just contradicted yourself by denying the dignity of the intelligence of the human animal and acting unethically towards human animals.

    I feel you there. Personally, it's a ethical religious choice for me and I give not one care what choices others make. I also don't feel the need to belittle anyone, lie to them, etc. Frankly, I'm disgusted by this type of behavior for all of the reasons that you point out.

    Unfortunately, based on the number of other vegans I've met in my life, I'm in the minority. (I hope that's not true, but current data sample in my life doesn't give me hope.)

    I care what choices others make (I do wish more people would choose veganism), but I agree with you that belittlement and lying is disgusting. Not only are they inappropriate morally, they are often counter-productive.

    You are the perfect example of an awesome vegan. I get so much flack in real life because of my choices for medical reasons (the meds from mouse protein we discussed before) and the fact that my diet for Crohn's is super restrictive (bananas, apple sauce, squash, potatoes, sweet potatoes and carrots well cooked and pureed being the only fruits and veggies I can digest without pain. I also can't eat seeds, nuts and legumes and am on low residue/ low fibre so white carbs only) which makes becoming a vegan almost impossible unless I want to basically live on white carbs. I don't eat much meat as I can't digest much anyways except fish, chicken and turkey but not being able to eat most plant based protein sources and being lactose intolerant makes it difficult. I would love to be able to but now I can't.

    I have a few die hard vegan friends who I love but they post articles about how becoming vegan will cure my Crohn's (no cure unfortunately and it would put me in the hospital on tpn if I tried to eat that way). I said something the first time but on subsequent postings I smile and nod.

    I hate the guilt and pressure since I would love to have a vegan lifestyle but I don't want to have to choose between hopefully keeping my intestines and staying alive with making my health way worse.


    It makes me happy to know that most vegans are understanding :)

    Thanks for saying that.

    I really can't stand the whole "going vegan will cure your 'x'" thing. I know vegans who have chronic diseases -- some they had before going vegan and they still have them, others developed them after going vegan. Veganism -- while it does appear to be generally associated with some health benefits when you look at the studies that are out there -- isn't a cure for disease and it isn't necessarily going to prevent disease in specific people. I hate to see it pushed that way. People who are sick, the last thing they need is guilt-tripping about how they could just prevent it if they did x, y, and z differently. My mom got cancer *after* years of being vegan (she's in remission now). Yet there are people will will say that if you get cancer (or another disease) it means you did something "wrong." People need to think about how their words will come across and how insensitive they are being sometimes.

    And as far as non-medical professionals telling people with special dietary needs how to eat -- that's just irresponsible. As you point out, you can put someone in the hospital that way.

    Grr, obviously you've hit on one of my pet peeves. I'm sorry you have to deal with all that.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Posts: 20,809Member Member Posts: 20,809Member Member
    zcb94 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll, I apologize for unnecessarily heating up the conversation. Let me explain:
    I don't mind tofu but wouldn't catch myself living on it. I didn't say that no one had a right to enjoy some, though.
    Tempeh sounds to me like the byproduct of someone's high school lab experiment.
    Seitan sounds too much like the name of my mortal enemy. Yikes!
    I'm in no way trying to present my opinion as fact regarding powder, but I wouldn't recommend living on it day in and day out. I snack on it with whole milk for the healthy fat.
    ASCIA says that
    Peanut and tree nut allergy is most common in infants and young children, but may appear for the first time in adults. Peanut allergy often receives greater attention because it is common (3% of infants), exposure is hard to avoid and in some cases even trace amounts can trigger symptoms. Around 20% of cases resolve, and while severity may occasionally lessen with age, around 20% of cases can become worse with time.
    . Please feel free to use this as a springboard for your own research!
    Veggies are usually delicious, but I didn't know that any were sources of protein, and those that are probably had to be GMOed. That's what I meant there.
    I hope I didn't overheat the discussion! :innocent:

    You wouldn't have to live on tofu in order to eat it sometimes for protein. Some vegans eat it often, some sometimes (I'm in this category), and some eat it never.

    Your personal reactions to tempeh and seitan just aren't relevant for anyone besides yourself.

    Like tofu, you wouldn't have to "live on" protein powder to have it sometimes for protein.

    I wouldn't, personally, want to "live on" chicken, but I know many people eat it often and enjoy it. I'm curious as to why you would look at eating tofu or protein powder in such a negative light (other than your personal preferences, which are valid for you, but not of much use for anyone else).

    3% of infants doesn't sound like "a good chunk of the world," especially if 20% of that group resolve over time. This means that relatively few people have a nut allergy and those who do -- and want to be vegan -- can use the other plant sources for protein.

    Many vegetables contain protein, although not in huge concentrations. This isn't due to GMO, it's how they grow. While vegetables themselves probably couldn't allow someone to meet their protein needs, someone who was including them in their diet would get the benefit of the protein in them.

    I'm not sure why you think this is heated. This is a section of the website for discussing nutrition and that's what we're doing.

    What I hear you saying is that you would find it a personal struggle to find palatable options on a vegan diet. While your personal experience is absolutely true for you, I'm responding because you seem to be assuming it would be an issue for others. But there are many people who enjoy plant-based foods and have no trouble meeting their protein needs on foods they enjoy. It doesn't even sound like you have tried some of the foods I mentioned, which is something to keep in mind before you decide that it would be hard to find palatable options as a vegan.
    Hm. You may have a few points there! I'm actually fairly certain that some of those who need to begin veganism for health or moral responsibility would find some of those options gag-worthy, though. While 20% of nut allergies go away, another 20% do not :scream: I might try some of the aforementioned items but must say that to do so isn't really on my bucket list.

    Are you interested in going vegan or are you mainly looking to explain why you are not?
  • singingfluteladysingingflutelady Posts: 8,643Member Member Posts: 8,643Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    ARGriffy wrote: »
    I'm watching "vegucated" on Netflix right now! Interesting watch!

    This is an interesting "documentary" and definitely some food for thought. Unfortunately, most of the "facts" that get touted in these types of films, (Vegucated, Fat Sick and Nearly Dead, Forks over Knives, etc) are either far from being actual facts, or usually some kind of agenda biased view of the information that presents conclusions that can't generally be taken from the data.

    I'd love to see a valid, non-propagandic documentary that presents real information that is useful and actionable... but unfortunately, if one exists I have yet to see it.

    Yeah, every vegan group that pulls these "facts" kind of things just causes me to think of the term "lying for Jesus" (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_for_Jesus) because the parallel.

    All I can think is make veganism about the ethics. If you're tricking and lying to human beings to because you believe in animal dignity and ethical treatment, you've just contradicted yourself by denying the dignity of the intelligence of the human animal and acting unethically towards human animals.

    I feel you there. Personally, it's a ethical religious choice for me and I give not one care what choices others make. I also don't feel the need to belittle anyone, lie to them, etc. Frankly, I'm disgusted by this type of behavior for all of the reasons that you point out.

    Unfortunately, based on the number of other vegans I've met in my life, I'm in the minority. (I hope that's not true, but current data sample in my life doesn't give me hope.)

    I care what choices others make (I do wish more people would choose veganism), but I agree with you that belittlement and lying is disgusting. Not only are they inappropriate morally, they are often counter-productive.

    You are the perfect example of an awesome vegan. I get so much flack in real life because of my choices for medical reasons (the meds from mouse protein we discussed before) and the fact that my diet for Crohn's is super restrictive (bananas, apple sauce, squash, potatoes, sweet potatoes and carrots well cooked and pureed being the only fruits and veggies I can digest without pain. I also can't eat seeds, nuts and legumes and am on low residue/ low fibre so white carbs only) which makes becoming a vegan almost impossible unless I want to basically live on white carbs. I don't eat much meat as I can't digest much anyways except fish, chicken and turkey but not being able to eat most plant based protein sources and being lactose intolerant makes it difficult. I would love to be able to but now I can't.

    I have a few die hard vegan friends who I love but they post articles about how becoming vegan will cure my Crohn's (no cure unfortunately and it would put me in the hospital on tpn if I tried to eat that way). I said something the first time but on subsequent postings I smile and nod.

    I hate the guilt and pressure since I would love to have a vegan lifestyle but I don't want to have to choose between hopefully keeping my intestines and staying alive with making my health way worse.


    It makes me happy to know that most vegans are understanding :)

    Thanks for saying that.

    I really can't stand the whole "going vegan will cure your 'x'" thing. I know vegans who have chronic diseases -- some they had before going vegan and they still have them, others developed them after going vegan. Veganism -- while it does appear to be generally associated with some health benefits when you look at the studies that are out there -- isn't a cure for disease and it isn't necessarily going to prevent disease in specific people. I hate to see it pushed that way. People who are sick, the last thing they need is guilt-tripping about how they could just prevent it if they did x, y, and z differently. My mom got cancer *after* years of being vegan (she's in remission now). Yet there are people will will say that if you get cancer (or another disease) it means you did something "wrong." People need to think about how their words will come across and how insensitive they are being sometimes.

    And as far as non-medical professionals telling people with special dietary needs how to eat -- that's just irresponsible. As you point out, you can put someone in the hospital that way.

    Grr, obviously you've hit on one of my pet peeves. I'm sorry you have to deal with all that.

    It's mine too. I'm on lots of Crohn's and colitis groups on fb and there is always someone who doesn't have either trying to sell something that cured a friend of a friend. It is especially bad since it is a GI and an autoimmune disease. Anything related to the digestive system automatically means you are eating wrong. Every time i have a bad symptom day the response from others is "what did you eat" not that it is my immune system attacking my body.


    The things people peddle to cure diseases with no cure is insane. Some guy was trying to sell me alkalized water. Um OK...

    It doesn't help that there are doctors like Dr McDougall who make false claims. On his website he claims that he has cured many people with severe ulcerative colitis by removing dairy from their diet... Um OK.


    The most dangerous thing I have seen is from a local raw vegan who does nutritional class who sent out an email to all the pharmacists in town claiming her diet plan cures type 1 diabetes.
    edited February 2016
  • zcb94zcb94 Posts: 4,191Member Member Posts: 4,191Member Member
    zcb94 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll, I apologize for unnecessarily heating up the conversation. Let me explain:
    I don't mind tofu but wouldn't catch myself living on it. I didn't say that no one had a right to enjoy some, though.
    Tempeh sounds to me like the byproduct of someone's high school lab experiment.
    Seitan sounds too much like the name of my mortal enemy. Yikes!
    I'm in no way trying to present my opinion as fact regarding powder, but I wouldn't recommend living on it day in and day out. I snack on it with whole milk for the healthy fat.
    ASCIA says that
    Peanut and tree nut allergy is most common in infants and young children, but may appear for the first time in adults. Peanut allergy often receives greater attention because it is common (3% of infants), exposure is hard to avoid and in some cases even trace amounts can trigger symptoms. Around 20% of cases resolve, and while severity may occasionally lessen with age, around 20% of cases can become worse with time.
    . Please feel free to use this as a springboard for your own research!
    Veggies are usually delicious, but I didn't know that any were sources of protein, and those that are probably had to be GMOed. That's what I meant there.
    I hope I didn't overheat the discussion! :innocent:

    You wouldn't have to live on tofu in order to eat it sometimes for protein. Some vegans eat it often, some sometimes (I'm in this category), and some eat it never.

    Your personal reactions to tempeh and seitan just aren't relevant for anyone besides yourself.

    Like tofu, you wouldn't have to "live on" protein powder to have it sometimes for protein.

    I wouldn't, personally, want to "live on" chicken, but I know many people eat it often and enjoy it. I'm curious as to why you would look at eating tofu or protein powder in such a negative light (other than your personal preferences, which are valid for you, but not of much use for anyone else).

    3% of infants doesn't sound like "a good chunk of the world," especially if 20% of that group resolve over time. This means that relatively few people have a nut allergy and those who do -- and want to be vegan -- can use the other plant sources for protein.

    Many vegetables contain protein, although not in huge concentrations. This isn't due to GMO, it's how they grow. While vegetables themselves probably couldn't allow someone to meet their protein needs, someone who was including them in their diet would get the benefit of the protein in them.

    I'm not sure why you think this is heated. This is a section of the website for discussing nutrition and that's what we're doing.

    What I hear you saying is that you would find it a personal struggle to find palatable options on a vegan diet. While your personal experience is absolutely true for you, I'm responding because you seem to be assuming it would be an issue for others. But there are many people who enjoy plant-based foods and have no trouble meeting their protein needs on foods they enjoy. It doesn't even sound like you have tried some of the foods I mentioned, which is something to keep in mind before you decide that it would be hard to find palatable options as a vegan.
    Hm. You may have a few points there! I'm actually fairly certain that some of those who need to begin veganism for health or moral responsibility would find some of those options gag-worthy, though. While 20% of nut allergies go away, another 20% do not :scream: I might try some of the aforementioned items but must say that to do so isn't really on my bucket list.

    Are you interested in going vegan or are you mainly looking to explain why you are not?
    Interested? Sure, I'd try it once! Maybe not right now, but if it ever became necessary for health, count me in!
  • BecomingBaneBecomingBane Posts: 3,648Member Member Posts: 3,648Member Member
    I like when a thread about veganism ends up in actual conversation and not just trolling and ridiculousness. It gives me hope that all of the other awesome vegans out there will continue logically discussing the reasoning of the lifestyle as opposed to the "benefits" of the diet.
  • EvgeniZyntxEvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,424Member Member Posts: 24,424Member Member
    I like when a thread about veganism ends up in actual conversation and not just trolling and ridiculousness. It gives me hope that all of the other awesome vegans out there will continue logically discussing the reasoning of the lifestyle as opposed to the "benefits" of the diet.

    There are quite a few interesting vegans and vegetarians on the boards. I find that the conversations on methodology and issues of nutrition spill over nicely into subjects that are impactful to omnivores. I also find that quite a few also spend time to assure that the blind belief in "benefits" is critically looked at.

    As to the reasons of the lifestyle, you have my respect, if not adherence.
  • BecomingBaneBecomingBane Posts: 3,648Member Member Posts: 3,648Member Member
    I like when a thread about veganism ends up in actual conversation and not just trolling and ridiculousness. It gives me hope that all of the other awesome vegans out there will continue logically discussing the reasoning of the lifestyle as opposed to the "benefits" of the diet.

    There are quite a few interesting vegans and vegetarians on the boards. I find that the conversations on methodology and issues of nutrition spill over nicely into subjects that are impactful to omnivores. I also find that quite a few also spend time to assure that the blind belief in "benefits" is critically looked at.

    As to the reasons of the lifestyle, you have my respect, if not adherence.

    I don't disagree with you, by any means that there are many interesting vegans around here. But I don't tend to see too many truly valuable discussions regarding nutrition, although that may simply just be me missing them. I do see enough and those that go well are amazing. The ones that don't go well, though, tend to go spectacularly not well. Which is about all I can expect with it being a public forum full of interesting and unique perspectives.
  • WitPhillipsWitPhillips Posts: 3Member Member Posts: 3Member Member
    I agree with what has been said about the calorie deficit being needed for weight loss above and there are plenty of good reasons to go vegan. Go to your library and check out The China Study, Whole, and 80/10/10 if you're interested in it from a nutrition standpoint.

    Though I will say from a personal standpoint the enthusiasts for that lifestyle were too intense for me.
    Some get dogmatic about following it to a textbook standard. So I was 80/10/10 for a few months with good results but it psychologically was too much and I burned out. They say people don't rebound from 80/10/10 but I sure did. I wasn't listening to my body or psyche.

    If you're the type of person who can view food purely as fuel and has no psychological attachment it might be easy enough. (I know people like this.)

    If you're cutting out food groups strictly to lose weight I'd recommend being watchful for orthorexia.
    Read Breaking Vegan if you're interested in that topic.

    Veganism, rather than saying you eat a plant-based diet, is a view of the world which is why some people get so dogmatic.

    Be mindful of your psyche as well as your body.

  • EvgeniZyntxEvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,424Member Member Posts: 24,424Member Member
    I like when a thread about veganism ends up in actual conversation and not just trolling and ridiculousness. It gives me hope that all of the other awesome vegans out there will continue logically discussing the reasoning of the lifestyle as opposed to the "benefits" of the diet.

    There are quite a few interesting vegans and vegetarians on the boards. I find that the conversations on methodology and issues of nutrition spill over nicely into subjects that are impactful to omnivores. I also find that quite a few also spend time to assure that the blind belief in "benefits" is critically looked at.

    As to the reasons of the lifestyle, you have my respect, if not adherence.

    I don't disagree with you, by any means that there are many interesting vegans around here. But I don't tend to see too many truly valuable discussions regarding nutrition, although that may simply just be me missing them. I do see enough and those that go well are amazing. The ones that don't go well, though, tend to go spectacularly not well. Which is about all I can expect with it being a public forum full of interesting and unique perspectives.

    Yeah, there is a lot of dross - I guess I'm thinking about old conversations with SaraUK, etc...
  • runsonrabbitfoodrunsonrabbitfood Posts: 89Member, Premium Member Posts: 89Member, Premium Member
    I like when a thread about veganism ends up in actual conversation and not just trolling and ridiculousness. It gives me hope that all of the other awesome vegans out there will continue logically discussing the reasoning of the lifestyle as opposed to the "benefits" of the diet.

    There are quite a few interesting vegans and vegetarians on the boards. I find that the conversations on methodology and issues of nutrition spill over nicely into subjects that are impactful to omnivores. I also find that quite a few also spend time to assure that the blind belief in "benefits" is critically looked at.

    As to the reasons of the lifestyle, you have my respect, if not adherence.

    I think it is very important to address the blind belief issues you're talking about. I personally got sucked into a lot of them. In my years of veganism, I've been 100% raw, starch solution, raw-til-4, etc, etc. I've found comfort in a more balanced approach (for both mind and body) and eat whatever vegan foods I want now while still keeping it mostly healthy and whole-foods based. Regardless of disappointments from what these magical lifestyles promised, I'm still vegan for many reasons and will always be. But I think it is very important that we're honest about veganism (both pros and cons) if we want more people to be open to it and to take it seriously. And I, personally, would love to see more people vegan. I'll still love you if you aren't of course (my fiancee isn't for example) but on a larger scale, I think it is an important ethical issue for society to give its attention to.

    One last important thing I would like to state: "Where do you get your protein from?" is the most common question I get as a vegan. And I understand. With all the meat and dairy "protein, protein, protein!" advertising out there, it's easy to think we need a crazy amount of it. But that's not the case - you're not going to suffer a protein deficiency by going vegan so long as you're eating a variety and adequate amount of good food. Plants naturally have protein too. Short of starving yourself by calorie restriction, it is very difficult to not meet the required amino acids that your body requires on a nutritional basis. Now, if your goals are to be Mr. Muscles or you just like messing with how macros make you feel, there's tons of options to amp up the protein intake: beans, tofu, seitan, faux meats, tempeh, quinoa, legumes, nuts, etc.
    edited February 2016
  • Alatariel75Alatariel75 Posts: 17,806Member Member Posts: 17,806Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    zcb94 wrote: »
    @janejellyroll, I apologize for unnecessarily heating up the conversation. Let me explain:
    I don't mind tofu but wouldn't catch myself living on it. I didn't say that no one had a right to enjoy some, though.
    Tempeh sounds to me like the byproduct of someone's high school lab experiment.
    Seitan sounds too much like the name of my mortal enemy. Yikes!
    I'm in no way trying to present my opinion as fact regarding powder, but I wouldn't recommend living on it day in and day out. I snack on it with whole milk for the healthy fat.
    ASCIA says that
    Peanut and tree nut allergy is most common in infants and young children, but may appear for the first time in adults. Peanut allergy often receives greater attention because it is common (3% of infants), exposure is hard to avoid and in some cases even trace amounts can trigger symptoms. Around 20% of cases resolve, and while severity may occasionally lessen with age, around 20% of cases can become worse with time.
    . Please feel free to use this as a springboard for your own research!
    Veggies are usually delicious, but I didn't know that any were sources of protein, and those that are probably had to be GMOed. That's what I meant there.
    I hope I didn't overheat the discussion! :innocent:

    You wouldn't have to live on tofu in order to eat it sometimes for protein. Some vegans eat it often, some sometimes (I'm in this category), and some eat it never.

    Your personal reactions to tempeh and seitan just aren't relevant for anyone besides yourself.

    Like tofu, you wouldn't have to "live on" protein powder to have it sometimes for protein.

    I wouldn't, personally, want to "live on" chicken, but I know many people eat it often and enjoy it. I'm curious as to why you would look at eating tofu or protein powder in such a negative light (other than your personal preferences, which are valid for you, but not of much use for anyone else).

    3% of infants doesn't sound like "a good chunk of the world," especially if 20% of that group resolve over time. This means that relatively few people have a nut allergy and those who do -- and want to be vegan -- can use the other plant sources for protein.

    Many vegetables contain protein, although not in huge concentrations. This isn't due to GMO, it's how they grow. While vegetables themselves probably couldn't allow someone to meet their protein needs, someone who was including them in their diet would get the benefit of the protein in them.

    I'm not sure why you think this is heated. This is a section of the website for discussing nutrition and that's what we're doing.

    What I hear you saying is that you would find it a personal struggle to find palatable options on a vegan diet. While your personal experience is absolutely true for you, I'm responding because you seem to be assuming it would be an issue for others. But there are many people who enjoy plant-based foods and have no trouble meeting their protein needs on foods they enjoy. It doesn't even sound like you have tried some of the foods I mentioned, which is something to keep in mind before you decide that it would be hard to find palatable options as a vegan.
    Hm. You may have a few points there! I'm actually fairly certain that some of those who need to begin veganism for health or moral responsibility would find some of those options gag-worthy, though. While 20% of nut allergies go away, another 20% do not :scream: I might try some of the aforementioned items but must say that to do so isn't really on my bucket list.

    I'm a non-vegan who sometimes eats tofu and tempeh and really likes them. Haven't found a vegan protein powder I enjoy (so far the ones I've tried either taste bad or don't mix as well as whey), but I have nothing against protein powder and am open-minded that there are better ones I have not tried. Haven't tried seitan yet, but I want to (in this gluten-phobic world the fact it's gluten makes me want to like it), and legumes, grains, nuts, and vegetables are all foods I quite enjoy.

    My biggest issue with becoming vegan isn't that I think that way of eating would be non-palatable or that it would be hard to do healthfully -- I am kind of obsessed with following vegan athletes (NOT freelee the fruitcake or her horrible SO) -- but that I don't currently feel the ethical calling or commitment, and I like dairy and eggs and meat. But I flirt with the idea of vegetarianism often enough that who knows, could happen in the future, and trying to eat plant-based on occasion is both a way of experimenting with it and, more important for now, a way of expanding the foods I eat and livening up my menu.

    Count me in for the non-vegan tofu eaters! I love the stuff. It's so versatile.
  • BecomingBaneBecomingBane Posts: 3,648Member Member Posts: 3,648Member Member
    I like when a thread about veganism ends up in actual conversation and not just trolling and ridiculousness. It gives me hope that all of the other awesome vegans out there will continue logically discussing the reasoning of the lifestyle as opposed to the "benefits" of the diet.

    There are quite a few interesting vegans and vegetarians on the boards. I find that the conversations on methodology and issues of nutrition spill over nicely into subjects that are impactful to omnivores. I also find that quite a few also spend time to assure that the blind belief in "benefits" is critically looked at.

    As to the reasons of the lifestyle, you have my respect, if not adherence.

    I don't disagree with you, by any means that there are many interesting vegans around here. But I don't tend to see too many truly valuable discussions regarding nutrition, although that may simply just be me missing them. I do see enough and those that go well are amazing. The ones that don't go well, though, tend to go spectacularly not well. Which is about all I can expect with it being a public forum full of interesting and unique perspectives.

    Yeah, there is a lot of dross - I guess I'm thinking about old conversations with SaraUK, etc...

    I never got to speak with that person.
  • stevencloserstevencloser Posts: 8,917Member Member Posts: 8,917Member Member
    I agree with what has been said about the calorie deficit being needed for weight loss above and there are plenty of good reasons to go vegan. Go to your library and check out The China Study, Whole, and 80/10/10 if you're interested in it from a nutrition standpoint.

    Though I will say from a personal standpoint the enthusiasts for that lifestyle were too intense for me.
    Some get dogmatic about following it to a textbook standard. So I was 80/10/10 for a few months with good results but it psychologically was too much and I burned out. They say people don't rebound from 80/10/10 but I sure did. I wasn't listening to my body or psyche.

    If you're the type of person who can view food purely as fuel and has no psychological attachment it might be easy enough. (I know people like this.)

    If you're cutting out food groups strictly to lose weight I'd recommend being watchful for orthorexia.
    Read Breaking Vegan if you're interested in that topic.

    Veganism, rather than saying you eat a plant-based diet, is a view of the world which is why some people get so dogmatic.

    Be mindful of your psyche as well as your body.

    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

    The china study is pretty bad. And that you rebounded from it even though "they" say you won't because it's so good and *kitten* should tell you how seriously you should take "them".
  • WitPhillipsWitPhillips Posts: 3Member Member Posts: 3Member Member
    https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-china-study-revisited/

    The china study is pretty bad. And that you rebounded from it even though "they" say you won't because it's so good and *kitten* should tell you how seriously you should take "them".

    Thanks for the link. I'm just trying to listen to my body and I'm still concerned about B12 deficiency, so I'm not back to being 100% plant based.
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