Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Meat Eater, Vegetarian or Vegan?
Options
Replies
-
snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.
I don't understand the last part of your post. What is the "defined" Mediterranean Diet? And how do "personal" diets of people living in that region not enter into it? Sorry, but the idea of the Med diet comes from diets of the people living there--it evolved from them and their traditions. How can you exclude them? Clarify.
It's not about excluding anyone. It's about a diet that is well established and well documented. And was established before a good many people living in the Med region today were born. It's based on foods that are found in the Mediterranean region and were historically eaten there.
Here are some resources if you are not familiar with it.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/mediterranean-diet/art-20047801
http://www.epicurious.com/archive/healthy/news/diet_mediterranean
http://oldwayspt.org/resources/heritage-pyramids/mediterranean-diet-pyramid
A quick internet search will get you plenty more information. It's one of the most touted and studied diets around.
I don't need a study hon, I live there. I live in Rome, Italy and know more about the Mediterranean diet than you do--that's for sure. I've lived here for 30 yrs and learned to cook from my mother-in-law and her two older sisters. 3 little old ladies in black.. just like the films. I make pasta or risotto everyday for my family and my husband says he eats better at home than in a restaurant. I study and buy quality foods, and discussions at meals are frequently about cooking. And something being discussed constantly here is that the Mediterranean diet has been chosen by UNESCO as something to protect--for the good of humankind.
Well, um, congratulations, I guess?? But again, my post was not about any person diet. I was talking about a documented named diet and even made sure to be specific of the topic in my post. Sorry it seems to bother you that they use your region in the name but I didn't name it.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
For some nutrients, meat is a much better source than plant based foods.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
The way I see it, we do this because we are basically at the top of the food chain, and for practically all of mankind humans have found that animals can be used as fuel for us.buzz28camaro wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »I visited our latest Farm Fair and my daughter chatted up a goat breeder for some time. Her retirement dream is to have a Merino goat farm. We talked about humane slaughter and we got a graphic description on how this can be done humanely. Step one, knock the animal out. Death occurs before it even hits the ground.
Killing an animal many years before its natural life would have ended when you could easily make other food choices doesn't sound humane to me, regardless of the method.
Animals that die naturally rarely have a quick and easy death. They typically either starve, die slowly of a disease or parasite or are eaten alive by a predator. Quick and as painless as possible is about as humane as it gets.
I agree with you, but I don't think that justifies voluntarily killing animals just to spare them a potentially "worse" natural death. We would never apply that same logic to humans and kill 15 years old who might get cancer and have a painful death, so why should it apply it the killing of young animals? Not trying to be argumentative, just trying to make a point.
We do it because we can and because we've always done it?
I can accept that might be *why* we do it, but neither of those are particularly good arguments as to why we should *continue* doing it when there are other options available.
So it is justifiable to slaughter billions of animals a year so we can potentially better absorb certain nutrients? That seems like a stretch.
It's natural. Omnivores kill and eat other animals. Whether it's done barbarically or humanely, it's what we naturally do.
So if something is "natural" then it is automatically acceptable?
Not sure what you mean. Acceptable to whom? It's natural whether you or anyone else accept it or not.
My point was, its irrelevant if something is natural. You were arguing that eating meat is natural, and that was your justification for why it was acceptable. I was making the point that just because something is natural (i.e. rape, murder, stealing) doesn't make it acceptable. That's not a good litmus test for how we should act.
I find it a little disconcerting that you think rape, murder and stealing are natural. But ignoring that, do you think it is unacceptable for any animal to be eaten, or only for man to eat them?
You don't think they're natural? Do you think humans in their "natural state" (whatever that is) aren't violent?
I would like to think not.
Well, we are. Evolution has made our brains more developed than other mammals so we are capable of reasoning, ethics, etc., but the cortex doesn't fully develop until age 12. Kids can naturally be pretty violent- outwardly or inwardly. We all have to teach our young ones that hitting isn't okay. But brain development can be impaired if they're not nurtured well (neglect, abuse and so on) and that can cause them to become violent adults.
0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I tend to think the biggest argument against eating animals (for food seems redundant, do we eat them for not food?) is helping other humans - there is an environmental impact of eating animals on the scale most, if not all, nations on this planet do.
There is also an environmental impact to eating non-animal food on the scale we do.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.
I object to the starred part. That's why I asked for a clarification.0 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.
I object to the starred part.
Well sorry to offend but the post is still 100% true.0 -
Regarding the first point, I'm more so thinking about the overall vegan lifestyle - avoiding using/consuming everything that is animal related. I'm not sure mentally I could do that without going insane, which would affect my ability to help others.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I don't see the connection between the two. Refraining from using an animal for food doesn't increase or decrease one's ability to help other humans. And you stated above that you believe we were created to have superiority over animals and that includes eating them. Are you saying that if human suffering was eradicated it would then become okay to defy the will of your creator? I thought I understood that there were no circumstances in which you felt it was appropriate to minimize animal exploitation, but now I'm not so sure.
I'm not sure how to respond to your personal belief that you could not thrive on a diet without animal products. There is no data there, so it isn't really something that one can engage with. I don't think there is any evidence that many people can't thrive on a diet without animal products. What data are you basing that statement on?
If I understand your second question correctly, I don't believe it's ethical to just go killing animals for the fun of it.
Again, when I refer to eating a diet without animal products, I mean without supplementing (which is of course a modern invention). If you're supplementing, then I would imagine your success eating a vegan diet would possibly be very different than 200 years ago. I just got my B12 level tested, and based on the result I think it's very reasonable that I'd be very deficient if eating a vegan diet without supplementing that vitamin.
0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.
I object to the starred part.
Well sorry to offend but the post is still 100% true.
I'm not at all offended, I was just curious as to what personal diet of a person living in the Mediterranean region, you are familiar with. This comment makes no sense to me. The diet is characteristic of the people that live in the region. I've come across alot of people making up their own Mediterranean diet--one recipe had soy sauce as an ingredient.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Regarding the first point, I'm more so thinking about the overall vegan lifestyle - avoiding using/consuming everything that is animal related. I'm not sure mentally I could do that without going insane, which would affect my ability to help others.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I don't see the connection between the two. Refraining from using an animal for food doesn't increase or decrease one's ability to help other humans. And you stated above that you believe we were created to have superiority over animals and that includes eating them. Are you saying that if human suffering was eradicated it would then become okay to defy the will of your creator? I thought I understood that there were no circumstances in which you felt it was appropriate to minimize animal exploitation, but now I'm not so sure.
I'm not sure how to respond to your personal belief that you could not thrive on a diet without animal products. There is no data there, so it isn't really something that one can engage with. I don't think there is any evidence that many people can't thrive on a diet without animal products. What data are you basing that statement on?
If I understand your second question correctly, I don't believe it's ethical to just go killing animals for the fun of it.
Again, when I refer to eating a diet without animal products, I mean without supplementing (which is of course a modern invention). If you're supplementing, then I would imagine your success eating a vegan diet would possibly be very different than 200 years ago. I just got my B12 level tested, and based on the result I think it's very reasonable that I'd be very deficient if eating a vegan diet without supplementing that vitamin.
If you mean that it would personally take mental effort for you to refrain from animal exploitation and that this mental effort would make you less able to help other humans because it would lead to your insanity, I understand what you're saying. Would I be correct in assuming that you have reduced your level of animal exploitation to the amount that you can comfortably avoid without inducing mental illness? Or do you engage in more than this? If you haven't reduced it to the level that you can sustain without having stress, I don't understand the argument.
If it isn't ethical to kill animals for the fun of it, do you believe that people have an ethical obligation to limit their animal exploitation to the level necessary to sustain health (we'll include mental health in this, as it seems like some people -- like yourself -- feel their mental health would be in danger if they avoid animal exploitation)? Every act of animal exploitation that isn't necessary to sustain physical and emotional health would be for "fun" (or "pleasure"), so you would consider these unethical?
Supplementation is a modern invention. I'm not sure what the relevance of that point is. I'm not arguing that people have an obligation to go vegan 1,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. I'm talking about today, where supplementation is cheap and easy (at least for people like us, people who are on computers). And again, if the desire to avoid supplementation (except for vitamin D) gives one an ethical justification for animal exploitation, we have to address the ethics of exploiting animals beyond what is needed to secure B12 needs. Would you consider any consumption of animal products above and beyond what is needed to secure B12 needs unethical? If not, then the supplementation argument is kind of a red herring.0 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.
I object to the starred part.
Well sorry to offend but the post is still 100% true.
I'm not at all offended, I was just curious as to what personal diet of a person living in the Mediterranean region, you are familiar with. This comment makes no sense to me. The diet is characteristic of the people that live in the region. I've come across alot of people making up their own Mediterranean diet--one recipe had soy sauce as an ingredient.
The clarification was an effort to prevent the comments from MFP members living the Med region that often follow mention of the Mediterranean Diet claiming it does not reflect their diet. Kind of amusing that the disclaimer elicited objection for the opposite reason, but I don't care what any person living in the Med region eats. It's irrelevant to my post.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.
I object to the starred part.
Well sorry to offend but the post is still 100% true.
I'm not at all offended, I was just curious as to what personal diet of a person living in the Mediterranean region, you are familiar with. This comment makes no sense to me. The diet is characteristic of the people that live in the region. I've come across alot of people making up their own Mediterranean diet--one recipe had soy sauce as an ingredient.
The clarification was an effort to prevent the comments from MFP members living the Med region that often follow mention of the Mediterranean Diet claiming it does not reflect their diet. Kind of amusing that the disclaimer elicited objection for the opposite reason, but I don't care what any person living in the Med region eats. It's irrelevant to my post.
You may not care--but lurkers do, and there are alot of them. That's why I asked, and I'm not surprised with the answer.0 -
I feel that both meat and vegetables are vital for the human body. While you can substitute some of the stuff you get from eating meat it really isn't the same. Like taking a vitamin D supplement helps someone with a vitamin D deficiency....it isn't the same as getting it naturally from being in the sun. So, I just really do not agree with people who don't eat meat (on any level) with the reasoning that they think it is "healthier".
I can somewhat understand those who don't eat meat as a type of protest to the animal treatment, facilities, environment, etc. But I still think that you are suffering nutritionally for it. There are other ways to eat meat without contributing to those negative things. Tons of organic and free-range or wild caught options out there.
What I most dislike about vegans and vegetarians however, (from what I've seen most...so obviously not all are like this by any means) is their attitude towards those who do eat meat.0 -
snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »Need2Exerc1se wrote: »In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.
I object to the starred part.
Well sorry to offend but the post is still 100% true.
I'm not at all offended, I was just curious as to what personal diet of a person living in the Mediterranean region, you are familiar with. This comment makes no sense to me. The diet is characteristic of the people that live in the region. I've come across alot of people making up their own Mediterranean diet--one recipe had soy sauce as an ingredient.
The clarification was an effort to prevent the comments from MFP members living the Med region that often follow mention of the Mediterranean Diet claiming it does not reflect their diet. Kind of amusing that the disclaimer elicited objection for the opposite reason, but I don't care what any person living in the Med region eats. It's irrelevant to my post.
You may not care--but lurkers do, and there are alot of them. That's why I asked, and I'm not surprised with the answer.
Lurkers care what people in the Med region eat? A bit off point, but thanks for sharing that.0 -
Ok, these are very gray lines. Like most people who eat meat, it's not like I've spent a great deal of time assessing all of this. I understand your point though. All I can say is, I feel as though I'm doing what's best for my body and my needs. I can't honestly say that I'm not eating an ounce more meat or animal products than what I think my body truly needs, but personally I don't consider it to be that much of a significant effect. And for me, analyzing exactly how much I really need to avoid the slightest bit of animal exploitation would cause a lot of extra stress.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Regarding the first point, I'm more so thinking about the overall vegan lifestyle - avoiding using/consuming everything that is animal related. I'm not sure mentally I could do that without going insane, which would affect my ability to help others.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I don't see the connection between the two. Refraining from using an animal for food doesn't increase or decrease one's ability to help other humans. And you stated above that you believe we were created to have superiority over animals and that includes eating them. Are you saying that if human suffering was eradicated it would then become okay to defy the will of your creator? I thought I understood that there were no circumstances in which you felt it was appropriate to minimize animal exploitation, but now I'm not so sure.
I'm not sure how to respond to your personal belief that you could not thrive on a diet without animal products. There is no data there, so it isn't really something that one can engage with. I don't think there is any evidence that many people can't thrive on a diet without animal products. What data are you basing that statement on?
If I understand your second question correctly, I don't believe it's ethical to just go killing animals for the fun of it.
Again, when I refer to eating a diet without animal products, I mean without supplementing (which is of course a modern invention). If you're supplementing, then I would imagine your success eating a vegan diet would possibly be very different than 200 years ago. I just got my B12 level tested, and based on the result I think it's very reasonable that I'd be very deficient if eating a vegan diet without supplementing that vitamin.
If you mean that it would personally take mental effort for you to refrain from animal exploitation and that this mental effort would make you less able to help other humans because it would lead to your insanity, I understand what you're saying. Would I be correct in assuming that you have reduced your level of animal exploitation to the amount that you can comfortably avoid without inducing mental illness? Or do you engage in more than this? If you haven't reduced it to the level that you can sustain without having stress, I don't understand the argument.
If it isn't ethical to kill animals for the fun of it, do you believe that people have an ethical obligation to limit their animal exploitation to the level necessary to sustain health (we'll include mental health in this, as it seems like some people -- like yourself -- feel their mental health would be in danger if they avoid animal exploitation)? Every act of animal exploitation that isn't necessary to sustain physical and emotional health would be for "fun" (or "pleasure"), so you would consider these unethical?
Supplementation is a modern invention. I'm not sure what the relevance of that point is. I'm not arguing that people have an obligation to go vegan 1,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. I'm talking about today, where supplementation is cheap and easy (at least for people like us, people who are on computers). And again, if the desire to avoid supplementation (except for vitamin D) gives one an ethical justification for animal exploitation, we have to address the ethics of exploiting animals beyond what is needed to secure B12 needs. Would you consider any consumption of animal products above and beyond what is needed to secure B12 needs unethical? If not, then the supplementation argument is kind of a red herring.0 -
I feel that both meat and vegetables are vital for the human body. While you can substitute some of the stuff you get from eating meat it really isn't the same. Like taking a vitamin D supplement helps someone with a vitamin D deficiency....it isn't the same as getting it naturally from being in the sun. So, I just really do not agree with people who don't eat meat (on any level) with the reasoning that they think it is "healthier".
I can somewhat understand those who don't eat meat as a type of protest to the animal treatment, facilities, environment, etc. But I still think that you are suffering nutritionally for it. There are other ways to eat meat without contributing to those negative things. Tons of organic and free-range or wild caught options out there.
What I most dislike about vegans and vegetarians however, (from what I've seen most...so obviously not all are like this by any means) is their attitude towards those who do eat meat.
When you talk about the nutritionally suffering of vegans and vegetarians, what sources are you referring to? It's easy to assert that supplementation (for the very few nutrients that can't be obtained from plants) is inferior -- but is this a feeling or is it based on specific research? I'm not aware of any evidence showing different outcomes for people who obtain B12 from supplementation or fortified foods instead of from animal products.
As far as different sources for animal products, it isn't just the treatment of animals prior to slaughter than vegans (and some vegetarians object to), it's the slaughter itself. So organic, free-range, or wild-caught options wouldn't address this at all (although some of them may be good sources for those who are concerned with the lives animals live prior to slaughter, but aren't so concerned with ending an animal's life).0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I'm not opposed to eating meat either, but this strikes me as obviously false. We are omnivores, so can get along on a wide variety of diets and don't need meat (especially with the ability to supplement B12). Many very healthy human diets have little to no meat.
I don't think the ethical issues can be dodged claiming that we need meat for health, AND I think that for the most part we'd likely be better off (and have some environmental benefits, which are benefits for humans) if we ate less meat.
Do I act accordingly? Not lately--I eat more animal products than I think I should, even though I am not ethically convinced that eating none is the right answer. Without a hard and fast line it's quite easy to just focus on what's easier or, of course, taste preference.0 -
As I have talked to Jane before, i would not still have my intestines and maybe not even be alive if it wasn't for animal products (I am in a biologic that is made from mouse proteins) plus my diet (for medical reasons) is very restrictive: no raw veggies and very little raw fruit (bananas), very little cooked veggies or fruits, low fiber, no legumes, seeds or nuts, no garlic or spice, no carrageenan, no red meat, little lactose. Ingestion of these foods cause serious GI distress and could cause me to end up in the hospital. Theoretically if I went vegetarian or vegan all I could eat are white carbs, sweet potatoes, squash, carrots, bananas, soy and "junk" food so for me being an omnivore is way healthier and being vegan or vegetarian could be life threatening.0
-
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Ok, these are very gray lines. Like most people who eat meat, it's not like I've spent a great deal of time assessing all of this. I understand your point though. All I can say is, I feel as though I'm doing what's best for my body and my needs. I can't honestly say that I'm not eating an ounce more meat or animal products than what I think my body truly needs, but personally I don't consider it to be that much of a significant effect. And for me, analyzing exactly how much I really need to avoid the slightest bit of animal exploitation would cause a lot of extra stress.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
Regarding the first point, I'm more so thinking about the overall vegan lifestyle - avoiding using/consuming everything that is animal related. I'm not sure mentally I could do that without going insane, which would affect my ability to help others.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I don't see the connection between the two. Refraining from using an animal for food doesn't increase or decrease one's ability to help other humans. And you stated above that you believe we were created to have superiority over animals and that includes eating them. Are you saying that if human suffering was eradicated it would then become okay to defy the will of your creator? I thought I understood that there were no circumstances in which you felt it was appropriate to minimize animal exploitation, but now I'm not so sure.
I'm not sure how to respond to your personal belief that you could not thrive on a diet without animal products. There is no data there, so it isn't really something that one can engage with. I don't think there is any evidence that many people can't thrive on a diet without animal products. What data are you basing that statement on?
If I understand your second question correctly, I don't believe it's ethical to just go killing animals for the fun of it.
Again, when I refer to eating a diet without animal products, I mean without supplementing (which is of course a modern invention). If you're supplementing, then I would imagine your success eating a vegan diet would possibly be very different than 200 years ago. I just got my B12 level tested, and based on the result I think it's very reasonable that I'd be very deficient if eating a vegan diet without supplementing that vitamin.
If you mean that it would personally take mental effort for you to refrain from animal exploitation and that this mental effort would make you less able to help other humans because it would lead to your insanity, I understand what you're saying. Would I be correct in assuming that you have reduced your level of animal exploitation to the amount that you can comfortably avoid without inducing mental illness? Or do you engage in more than this? If you haven't reduced it to the level that you can sustain without having stress, I don't understand the argument.
If it isn't ethical to kill animals for the fun of it, do you believe that people have an ethical obligation to limit their animal exploitation to the level necessary to sustain health (we'll include mental health in this, as it seems like some people -- like yourself -- feel their mental health would be in danger if they avoid animal exploitation)? Every act of animal exploitation that isn't necessary to sustain physical and emotional health would be for "fun" (or "pleasure"), so you would consider these unethical?
Supplementation is a modern invention. I'm not sure what the relevance of that point is. I'm not arguing that people have an obligation to go vegan 1,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. I'm talking about today, where supplementation is cheap and easy (at least for people like us, people who are on computers). And again, if the desire to avoid supplementation (except for vitamin D) gives one an ethical justification for animal exploitation, we have to address the ethics of exploiting animals beyond what is needed to secure B12 needs. Would you consider any consumption of animal products above and beyond what is needed to secure B12 needs unethical? If not, then the supplementation argument is kind of a red herring.
What about a general analysis instead of a specific one?
Would you say that someone who consumed much more than they needed was acting unethically? I'm trying to get to the heart of your supplementation argument because it seems to only make sense to me if one is (generally) limiting consumption to actual needs.
I understand your "feeling" that you're doing what is best for your body and your needs. I'm trying to see if we can move this conversation beyond feelings. If you don't want to do that, I completely understand. I'm not trying to be aggressive here, I just consider this an interesting debate.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
I started typing a more lengthy response and decided to erase it since it would be going into politics. But IMO I would rather devote as much effort as I can on helping other humans before trying to avoid eating animals for food. And on an important note, I personally don't believe my physical body would thrive best on a diet devoid of animal products. For you to do all that, then kudos to you. But many of us most likely cannot.janejellyroll wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »I disappeared for a couple hours, and while reading some of the new posts I'm almost falling out of my chair in laughter. I can't believe slavery and rape have been brought into this discussion.
Considering that we as a species kill so many of our own each year due to anger and carelessness (especially when it comes to automobile crashes and shootings), IMO we as humans have much more important things to be concerned about rather than killing animals for food.
One of the great things about our human brains is that we can be concerned about multiple things at a time and take multiple actions. Avoiding unnecessary animal exploitation doesn't reduce any of my ability to volunteer my time and donate money to help my fellow humans. And it doesn't increase my risk of being in an automobile crash or shooting someone else . . . I don't see the connection between those things at all.
I'm not opposed to eating meat either, but this strikes me as obviously false. We are omnivores, so can get along on a wide variety of diets and don't need meat (especially with the ability to supplement B12). Many very healthy human diets have little to no meat.
I don't think the ethical issues can be dodged claiming that we need meat for health, AND I think that for the most part we'd likely be better off (and have some environmental benefits, which are benefits for humans) if we ate less meat.
Do I act accordingly? Not lately--I eat more animal products than I think I should, even though I am not ethically convinced that eating none is the right answer. Without a hard and fast line it's quite easy to just focus on what's easier or, of course, taste preference.
I would agree with this. Eating meat so we will have time and energy to help other humans is a bit of a stretch.
0 -
buzz28camaro wrote: »buzz28camaro wrote: »Meat is tasty to many.
There are plenty who are unwilling to give it up and plenty that have no moral or ethical conflict when it comes to killing animals for food.
That is why we continue to kill animals for meat. If no one wanted it, no one would bother.
So by that logic, wee should never have ended slavery because plenty of people were unwilling to give it up and had no moral or ethical conflict with owning slaves? Just making sure I'm following your thought process.
Here's a thought. If you ever, ever, ever, remotely have the idea of comparing slavery, or humans, to animals don't. It just makes you look like you have some kind of racists view of people as subhuman that were slaves. It will never, in the eyes of anyone you're arguing with, make a decent argument that animals are on a level with people because, quiet frankly, they aren't. There are all kinds of compelling arguments for not eating animals, but denigrating other humans by even allowing the shadow of the implication that they are the same as animals, is not one of them.
If you choose to completely miss the point I was making about the flawed logic in the poster's argument, so be it. My analogy was spot on. And in no way was I comparing animals to slaves or vice versa. My point was that using the argument "people don't have a problem with it" as a reason to continue doing something is not a good argument.
The point is that if you are going to try to convert people, you're more likely to have them listen to your cause if you don't use such extreme examples or language.
That being said, while I appreciate how passionate you are about your vegan cause, respect should be had for others who don't share your beliefs. There are many opinions out there, regarding veganism, humane treatment of animals, and so forth. You support their rights by not eating them. Others have other ways they contribute to protecting wildlife. You're not going to change everyone, the whole planet is not going to become vegan. It's not practical, and honestly, this is a first-world problem. You have the privilege of chosing to be vegan. Others don't. So enjoy that privilege and let others enjoy what they chose to eat.1 -
Interesting piece on Seventh Day Adventists (relates to both vegetarianism and the Med Diet): http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/02/the-lovely-hill-where-people-live-longer-and-happier/272798/0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 391.7K Introduce Yourself
- 43.5K Getting Started
- 259.7K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.6K Food and Nutrition
- 47.3K Recipes
- 232.3K Fitness and Exercise
- 395 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.4K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 152.7K Motivation and Support
- 7.8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.3K MyFitnessPal Information
- 23 News and Announcements
- 959 Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.3K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions