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Meat Eater, Vegetarian or Vegan?

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  • jgnatcajgnatca Posts: 14,495Member Member Posts: 14,495Member Member
    Omnivore because of efficiency, my teeth, and my stomach. I'm designed for it. Meat, eggs, and dairy are effective sources of protein and some of the vitamins. I don't eat meat every day, but at least weekly. Dairy every day.
  • VeganMotoGirlVeganMotoGirl Posts: 52Member Member Posts: 52Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    The logic is there but I would argue that may not be the case when the supply of meat and dairy is full of harmful chemicals and hormones. It may be healthier to limit conventional animal products or skip them all together if they are not available. Just a thought...
  • VeganMotoGirlVeganMotoGirl Posts: 52Member Member Posts: 52Member Member
    I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons

    I have been vegan for a few years now and I don't find it hard to get all my protein and most veggie protein is low fat unless they are cooked oils or butter, ect. I will admit in the beginning I was unsure where to get protein except tofu, beans, nuts, ect. But I learned as I went along that there are so plant based sources of protein and most of them are low fat when unprocessed.
  • vivmom2014vivmom2014 Posts: 1,534Member Member Posts: 1,534Member Member
    I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons

    No, not necessarily. Vegetarians can consume protein-rich dairy, along with tofu, seitan and tempeh (all rich in protein) along with the standard nuts, beans and legumes.

  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
    That would only be logical if the food not being excluded enhances the diet.

    And if one tended to add foods that one should eat in the same proportions. Lots of meat-eaters (SAD, for example) may exclude vegetables (or eat too few), even though they have no ethical objections.
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.
    I have to wonder though would the results of that study be different if they used diabetics.
    Which of the 5 studies?
    Why do you imagine diabetics would generate different results?
    Basically all of them. I know many diabetics (especially the ones on here) can say from personal experience that eating a diet that is fairly high in carbs (particularly over 60%) is off limits. I know this is more of a conjecture. But given how damaging it would be to their overall health, I can't imagine a full blown diabetic eating 70% carbs and yet having a much improved athletic performance and especially lower cortisol levels over a lower carb amount.

    I'm basically bored of every discussion becoming about diabetics, so am not that interested in this topic.

    However, it is worth noting, again, that there are many traditional diets with much higher percentages of carb consumption than the SAD, and the percentage of T2diabetics is basically nil. That suggests that the issue for the growth in T2D in the US is not carb consumption, but being overweight and having a poor diet (including poor choices when it comes to carbs).

    My understanding from educated T2D who have followed appropriate medical advice and controlled their diabetes is that low carb is less an issue than having moderate carbs combined with other food choices (and often reducing foods like sat fat too).

    Also, while exercise can lead to BS spikes, on the whole exercising intensely will allow for more carbs, even for someone with IR (which, again, is not, in fact, most people, so it is irritatingly that every topic becomes about that).
  • nvmomketonvmomketo Posts: 12,031Member Member Posts: 12,031Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.

    Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.

    My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.

    And yes, I agree. People not on a ketogenic diet burn fat too, just not as efficiently as those who are fat adapted, according to the link below. Fat oxidation of ketogenic and HCLF elite endurance athletes was compared during exercise. The LCHF group had higher rates of fat oxidation.
    http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    fat_adaptation-5-550x412.png

    edited February 2016
  • AnvilHeadAnvilHead Posts: 18,543Member Member Posts: 18,543Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    The logic is there but I would argue that may not be the case when the supply of meat and dairy is full of harmful chemicals and hormones. It may be healthier to limit conventional animal products or skip them all together if they are not available. Just a thought...

    The argument could also be made that a vegan diet isn't healthier if it's full of oreos, french fries and vegetables treated with pesticides. See how one can use extremes to make any point?

    Propaganda and fearmongering aside, not all "conventional animal products" are "full of harmful chemicals and hormones". I know that's more or less the standard vegan mantra, but it's nowhere near the truth.
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.

    Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.

    My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.

    First, these aren't keto diets, so the negative effects cannot be explained by ketosis not kicking in yet, and therefore I think the criticism of the length isn't convincing. And there are other important problems for muscle-building/repair, like amino acids not being as effectively transmitted to the muscles, which is likely an effect of the desired low insulin, since that is one of insulin's jobs. Colpo goes into the studies on keto specifically in his book and some of those are much longer-term studies.

    Beyond that, of course, being more adapted to use fat than glycogen (and I agree that one can train oneself to be better at that, although I'd advise reading the various criticisms of the Volek studies too, and there are ways to do this short of low carbing, and again it's pretty striking that the vast majority of athletes even in endurance sports don't low carb or keto and that even the extreme endurance athletes use carbs for performance), saying nothing about whether you will also use muscle or have more issues maintaining muscle. It's simply a different subject.

    In any event, for most people it may not matter much, and low carbing can be healthy (if one eats adequate vegetables).
    edited March 2016
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.

    Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.

    My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.

    First, these aren't keto diets, so the negative effects cannot be explained by ketosis not kicking in yet, and therefore I think the criticism of the length isn't convincing. And there are other important problems for muscle-building/repair, like amino acids not being as effectively transmitted to the muscles, which is likely an effect of the desired low insulin, since that is one of insulin's jobs. Colpo goes into the studies on keto specifically in his book and some of those are much longer-term studies.

    Beyond that, of course, being more adapted to use fat than glycogen (and I agree that one can train oneself to be better at that, although I'd advise reading the various criticisms of the Volek studies too, and there are ways to do this short of low carbing, and again it's pretty striking that the vast majority of athletes even in endurance sports don't low carb or keto and that even the extreme endurance athletes use carbs for performance), saying nothing about whether you will also use muscle or have more issues maintaining muscle. It's simply a different subject.

    In any event, for most people it may not matter much, and low carbing can be healthy (if one eats adequate vegetables).

    That's an interesting point. What gets lost in low carb craze is that insulin is a anabolic hormone - it is often talked about in terms of building adipose tissue over muscle tissue, but is important for both. The low levels of it that a ketogenic diet are kind of erasing this effect.

    On the off chance I found myself needing to do a muscle sparing ketogenic diet for some reason, I suppose the best way to spare muscle would be dairy heavy, particularly casein. The in-vogue thing seems to be coconut oil, but coconut oil mostly just acts as quick burning fat - I'd be looking for the potential IGF-1 increases dairy has some minor claims of increasing. It might spare some of the effects of the low insulin levels.
  • nvmomketonvmomketo Posts: 12,031Member Member Posts: 12,031Member Member
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.

    Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.

    My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.

    First, these aren't keto diets, so the negative effects cannot be explained by ketosis not kicking in yet, and therefore I think the criticism of the length isn't convincing. And there are other important problems for muscle-building/repair, like amino acids not being as effectively transmitted to the muscles, which is likely an effect of the desired low insulin, since that is one of insulin's jobs. Colpo goes into the studies on keto specifically in his book and some of those are much longer-term studies.

    Beyond that, of course, being more adapted to use fat than glycogen (and I agree that one can train oneself to be better at that, although I'd advise reading the various criticisms of the Volek studies too, and there are ways to do this short of low carbing, and again it's pretty striking that the vast majority of athletes even in endurance sports don't low carb or keto and that even the extreme endurance athletes use carbs for performance), saying nothing about whether you will also use muscle or have more issues maintaining muscle. It's simply a different subject.

    In any event, for most people it may not matter much, and low carbing can be healthy (if one eats adequate vegetables).

    Exactly. These are not ketogenic diets. I'm not sure why you posted this in a response to the protein I eat on a (muscle sparing) ketogenic diet. The fact that these athletes were beginning to cut carbs and probably feeling it (lack of energy) is a fact for most people.

    We do seem to be discussing different subjects.

    And low carb does not need adequate veggies, just like vegans don't need adequate animal products for good health.
  • nvmomketonvmomketo Posts: 12,031Member Member Posts: 12,031Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.

    Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.

    My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.

    First, these aren't keto diets, so the negative effects cannot be explained by ketosis not kicking in yet, and therefore I think the criticism of the length isn't convincing. And there are other important problems for muscle-building/repair, like amino acids not being as effectively transmitted to the muscles, which is likely an effect of the desired low insulin, since that is one of insulin's jobs. Colpo goes into the studies on keto specifically in his book and some of those are much longer-term studies.

    Beyond that, of course, being more adapted to use fat than glycogen (and I agree that one can train oneself to be better at that, although I'd advise reading the various criticisms of the Volek studies too, and there are ways to do this short of low carbing, and again it's pretty striking that the vast majority of athletes even in endurance sports don't low carb or keto and that even the extreme endurance athletes use carbs for performance), saying nothing about whether you will also use muscle or have more issues maintaining muscle. It's simply a different subject.

    In any event, for most people it may not matter much, and low carbing can be healthy (if one eats adequate vegetables).

    That's an interesting point. What gets lost in low carb craze is that insulin is a anabolic hormone - it is often talked about in terms of building adipose tissue over muscle tissue, but is important for both. The low levels of it that a ketogenic diet are kind of erasing this effect.

    On the off chance I found myself needing to do a muscle sparing ketogenic diet for some reason, I suppose the best way to spare muscle would be dairy heavy, particularly casein. The in-vogue thing seems to be coconut oil, but coconut oil mostly just acts as quick burning fat - I'd be looking for the potential IGF-1 increases dairy has some minor claims of increasing. It might spare some of the effects of the low insulin levels.

    For someone like me (with insulin resistance) a ketogenic diet is helpful with insulin because it prevents insulin spikes because of lower carb, and slightly lower/moderate protein, intake. The insulin is still there, just not in excessive amounts, so BG is stable - similar insulin patterns to that of someone without the insulin resistance. I doubt I have lower insulin than average; I'm probably around average now.
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.

    Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.

    My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.

    First, these aren't keto diets, so the negative effects cannot be explained by ketosis not kicking in yet, and therefore I think the criticism of the length isn't convincing. And there are other important problems for muscle-building/repair, like amino acids not being as effectively transmitted to the muscles, which is likely an effect of the desired low insulin, since that is one of insulin's jobs. Colpo goes into the studies on keto specifically in his book and some of those are much longer-term studies.

    Beyond that, of course, being more adapted to use fat than glycogen (and I agree that one can train oneself to be better at that, although I'd advise reading the various criticisms of the Volek studies too, and there are ways to do this short of low carbing, and again it's pretty striking that the vast majority of athletes even in endurance sports don't low carb or keto and that even the extreme endurance athletes use carbs for performance), saying nothing about whether you will also use muscle or have more issues maintaining muscle. It's simply a different subject.

    In any event, for most people it may not matter much, and low carbing can be healthy (if one eats adequate vegetables).

    Exactly. These are not ketogenic diets. I'm not sure why you posted this in a response to the protein I eat on a (muscle sparing) ketogenic diet. The fact that these athletes were beginning to cut carbs and probably feeling it (lack of energy) is a fact for most people.

    We do seem to be discussing different subjects.

    And low carb does not need adequate veggies, just like vegans don't need adequate animal products for good health.

    To be healthy it needs adequate vegetables or some other source of the nutrients one gets from vegetables (which may or may not be as good a source). That would mean a good variety of organ meats.
  • kalmfkalmf Posts: 351Member Member Posts: 351Member Member
    Not to argue for any point of view - I eat vegetables and fish - I highly recommend "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. I can't remember whether it was that book or one of his others, but his conclusion was: Eat real food, mostly vegetables, not too much.

    So sublimely simple.
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.

    In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.

    The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.

    Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.

    Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.

    My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.

    First, these aren't keto diets, so the negative effects cannot be explained by ketosis not kicking in yet, and therefore I think the criticism of the length isn't convincing. And there are other important problems for muscle-building/repair, like amino acids not being as effectively transmitted to the muscles, which is likely an effect of the desired low insulin, since that is one of insulin's jobs. Colpo goes into the studies on keto specifically in his book and some of those are much longer-term studies.

    Beyond that, of course, being more adapted to use fat than glycogen (and I agree that one can train oneself to be better at that, although I'd advise reading the various criticisms of the Volek studies too, and there are ways to do this short of low carbing, and again it's pretty striking that the vast majority of athletes even in endurance sports don't low carb or keto and that even the extreme endurance athletes use carbs for performance), saying nothing about whether you will also use muscle or have more issues maintaining muscle. It's simply a different subject.

    In any event, for most people it may not matter much, and low carbing can be healthy (if one eats adequate vegetables).

    That's an interesting point. What gets lost in low carb craze is that insulin is a anabolic hormone - it is often talked about in terms of building adipose tissue over muscle tissue, but is important for both. The low levels of it that a ketogenic diet are kind of erasing this effect.

    On the off chance I found myself needing to do a muscle sparing ketogenic diet for some reason, I suppose the best way to spare muscle would be dairy heavy, particularly casein. The in-vogue thing seems to be coconut oil, but coconut oil mostly just acts as quick burning fat - I'd be looking for the potential IGF-1 increases dairy has some minor claims of increasing. It might spare some of the effects of the low insulin levels.

    For someone like me (with insulin resistance) a ketogenic diet is helpful with insulin because it prevents insulin spikes because of lower carb, and slightly lower/moderate protein, intake. The insulin is still there, just not in excessive amounts, so BG is stable - similar insulin patterns to that of someone without the insulin resistance. I doubt I have lower insulin than average; I'm probably around average now.

    Would you say then that being on a ketogenic diet might result in excessively low insulin in someone with insulin resistance then? That it would have less muscle sparing for such individuals?
  • bclarke1990bclarke1990 Posts: 288Member Member Posts: 288Member Member
    I'm essentially vegan. I'm using up the last big order of whey protein I bought in my oatmeal, but otherwise I don't eat any dairy or meat products. In my view, there's just no need. The environmental factors are incredible, and dairy and saturated fat aren't particularly desirable. At the end of the day it's easy for me to eat mostly vegetables, nuts and seeds. I think there's a mental placebo effect going on too, because when I eat nothing but healthy whole foods all day I feel like I'm fueling my body properly and I feel good about myself.

    I'm not one of those people who scoffs at people who eat meat; for me it's just an easy lifestyle to maintain and it does a large amount of good to the planet :)
  • gettingreallyfedupnowgettingreallyfedupnow Posts: 79Member Member Posts: 79Member Member
    I'm vegetarian, gluten free and add chillies to almost everything
  • jgnatcajgnatca Posts: 14,495Member Member Posts: 14,495Member Member
    My daughter's retirement dream is to have a Merino goat farm. I visited our latest Farm Fair and my daughter chatted up a goat breeder for some time. He was intimate on the health of all his goats, and pointed out what he looked for. A successful farmer knows his animals.

    We talked about humane slaughter and we got a graphic description on how this can be done humanely. Step one, knock the animal out. Death occurs before it even hits the ground.
    edited March 2016
  • buzz28camarobuzz28camaro Posts: 52Member Member Posts: 52Member Member
    jgnatca wrote: »
    I visited our latest Farm Fair and my daughter chatted up a goat breeder for some time. Her retirement dream is to have a Merino goat farm. We talked about humane slaughter and we got a graphic description on how this can be done humanely. Step one, knock the animal out. Death occurs before it even hits the ground.

    Killing an animal many years before its natural life would have ended when you could easily make other food choices doesn't sound humane to me, regardless of the method.
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