Welcome to Debate Club! Please be aware that this is a space for respectful debate, and that your ideas will be challenged here. Please remember to critique the argument, not the author.
Meat Eater, Vegetarian or Vegan?
Replies
-
Meat. To be quite honest I am moving towards carnivore because I feel better without plant products in my life.
I am was prediabetic, and I switched to a low carb diet to help stabilize my blood glucose. I realized fairly quickly that I felt better as my carbs decreased so I switched to a ketogenic diet. I appear to be quite carb sensitive so I started dropping some veggies and realized that I felt better without most of them. My only plant product hold overs are coconut ( and cream and oil), nuts, avocado, some canola in my mayonnaise, coffee and stevia drops.
I know I can get all of the nutrients I need from animal products so I am not at all worried about nutrition. I think many of the healthful parts of plants, like fibre, are there to help humans deal with eating plants. They seem to become redundant as you move away from a plant based diet.
I also eat eggs and full fat dairy. I probably eat meat twice a day, sometimes more and sometimes less. I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.0 -
As has been mentioned several times already, there is more variation in nutritional adequacy and health outcomes within these groups than between them. Any of the three diet styles can be extremely healthy, extremely unhealthy, or anywhere in between.
That being said, statistically vegetarians have consistently experienced lower mortality rates and lower rates of coronary heart disease across multiple large studies conducted in the last half century or so. Many studies have also showed a reduction in cancer incidence, but the results are not as consistent as the CHD and mortality rates, so further study is definitely needed here.
This could very well be due to confounding variables, like vegetable consumption or caloric intake, but it's certainly food for thought, as even the fairly well controlled (given the type of study) Adventist Health Studies at Loma Linda U showed lower mortality in the vegetarians vs omnivores studied.
Here is a good overview of the research, and most of the studies cited are available online as well if you want more detail on the methodologies and data.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677008/?tool=pubmed#__sec2title
Personally, I am vegan, but for ethical rather than health reasons. If it were about health I'd eat a lot more kale and far fewer Nutter Butters0 -
MakePeasNotWar wrote: »As has been mentioned several times already, there is more variation in nutritional adequacy and health outcomes within these groups than between them. Any of the three diet styles can be extremely healthy, extremely unhealthy, or anywhere in between.
Yes, that's my view.That being said, statistically vegetarians have consistently experienced lower mortality rates and lower rates of coronary heart disease across multiple large studies conducted in the last half century or so. Many studies have also showed a reduction in cancer incidence, but the results are not as consistent as the CHD and mortality rates, so further study is definitely needed here.
This could very well be due to confounding variables, like vegetable consumption or caloric intake, but it's certainly food for thought, as even the fairly well controlled (given the type of study) Adventist Health Studies at Loma Linda U showed lower mortality in the vegetarians vs omnivores studied.
I think it's likely the confounding variables -- people who bother to go vegetarian (and especially vegan) are more often health-conscious and also just following a diet that requires more thought and to cut out foods that are commonly overeaten (even if healthful in moderation), as well as being a population more likely to eat adequate plant foods (which the US pop as a whole is woefully bad at) are all important factors, I'd suspect. Similar to the questions raised about the China study, among others.
But yes, I've also read those studies and think that's part of why the nutrition advice one gets is what it is. I think we all should probably keep an eye on sat fat and consume it in moderation (or sparingly) and eat lots of vegetables and other healthful plant foods. (I'd also encourage eating fish, although they are meat, but of course environmental issues and mercury makes that more problematic.)0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »MakePeasNotWar wrote: »As has been mentioned several times already, there is more variation in nutritional adequacy and health outcomes within these groups than between them. Any of the three diet styles can be extremely healthy, extremely unhealthy, or anywhere in between.
Yes, that's my view.That being said, statistically vegetarians have consistently experienced lower mortality rates and lower rates of coronary heart disease across multiple large studies conducted in the last half century or so. Many studies have also showed a reduction in cancer incidence, but the results are not as consistent as the CHD and mortality rates, so further study is definitely needed here.
This could very well be due to confounding variables, like vegetable consumption or caloric intake, but it's certainly food for thought, as even the fairly well controlled (given the type of study) Adventist Health Studies at Loma Linda U showed lower mortality in the vegetarians vs omnivores studied.
I think it's likely the confounding variables -- people who bother to go vegetarian (and especially vegan) are more often health-conscious and also just following a diet that requires more thought and to cut out foods that are commonly overeaten (even if healthful in moderation), as well as being a population more likely to eat adequate plant foods (which the US pop as a whole is woefully bad at) are all important factors, I'd suspect. Similar to the questions raised about the China study, among others.
But yes, I've also read those studies and think that's part of why the nutrition advice one gets is what it is. I think we all should probably keep an eye on sat fat and consume it in moderation (or sparingly) and eat lots of vegetables and other healthful plant foods. (I'd also encourage eating fish, although they are meat, but of course environmental issues and mercury makes that more problematic.)
The gap does seem to close when you move from "average" to "health conscious" omnivores, so you are probably right for the most part. It's unfortunate that there is really no ethical way to do very high quality human nutrition studies, since they would require confining huge numbers of subjects to a lab for decades.
I totally agree about the benefits of simply having to pay more attention as a vegetarian or vegan. I find I have to plan ahead to get adequate protein, and it's a lot easier to plan to eat healthy tomorrow and then follow through, than to eat healthy right now if I don't have a plan in place.
I don't eat fish, but my reading did prompt me to buy an algae derived DHA supplement, in the hopes of getting some of the same benefits.0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Uhh... I eat meat and am aware that it's unhealthy and risky. But meat in my mind is the centerpiece of a meal.
I don't like the way they kill or treat animals but I can't change other people
You've been misinformed. It is neither unhealthy nor risky.
ETA unless you're eating it raw.
It is unhealthy
And risky as in who knows if every bit reaches 165 righttr
Being vegetarian is just as bad unless you buy everything organic0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Uhh... I eat meat and am aware that it's unhealthy and risky. But meat in my mind is the centerpiece of a meal.
I don't like the way they kill or treat animals but I can't change other people
You've been misinformed. It is neither unhealthy nor risky.
ETA unless you're eating it raw.
It is unhealthy
And risky as in who knows if every bit reaches 165 righttr
Being vegetarian is just as bad unless you buy everything organic
Another claim refuted by studies...
Can't even tell if trolling...1 -
I don't think it matters, you can be fat, skinny and unhealthy as a meat eater, a vegan or a vegetarian. People say all you need to do is eat in a deficit to lose weight a calorie is a calorie and they are right to a point IMO (which I am allowed to have) You can also be perfectly healthy eating a meat diet, a vegan diet or a vegetarian diet. When I began my journey just over a new ago, I not only wanted to lose weight, I was on a mission to become healthy as well, change my lifestyle and that is what I did. I now eat whole natural plant pure foods, I cut all animal product. this was a personal choice. Everyone has to find their own path. I just felt this was the next step in my journey and the more I educate myself on food, health and fitness the more my path changes. Have I noticed health benefits, since I made the switch. I sure have. Things like I no longer suffer from migraines, I sleep better, TMI no more bathroom issues, skin is clear etc.. I cut out 90% of refine sugar, I do not eat take out. I pretty much make everything from scratch (it tastes way better) Very very very little processed foods. The other plus side is that I upped my calories and my carbs, I eat way more than I did before I made the switch and the weight keeps coming off nicely. So there's my two cents
0 -
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
That's why there are food thermometers. And the meat doesn't have to be pulled right at 165 either; it can be a bit higher than that.
And risky as in who knows if every bit reaches 165 righttrCarlos_421 wrote: »Uhh... I eat meat and am aware that it's unhealthy and risky. But meat in my mind is the centerpiece of a meal.
I don't like the way they kill or treat animals but I can't change other people
You've been misinformed. It is neither unhealthy nor risky.
ETA unless you're eating it raw.
0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.0 -
Vegan. For the animals. The weight loss and good health the came with it was just a bonus.1
-
ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.0 -
booksandchocolate12 wrote: »Meat eater, vegetarian or vegan? I'll give you a hint:
The reason? Because meat is delicious and I refuse to give up anything delicious.
This. While I enjoy meatless meals...I am a meat eater because I enjoy it 0 -
Dietary composition is healthier (forget the labels).
A healthy lifestyle includes regular physical exercise, not smoking, a happy relaxed mind, and a nutrient-rich balanced-calorie diet to maintain a moderately lean body weight.
Weight, hence dietary energy intake appears to be the major dietary factor determining the onset of age-related diseases such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer, dementia, etc...
A diet rich in fruits and vegetables, omega 3, with a micronutrient balance is more important than choosing an eating style with respect to the three choices given in the title. Vegetarianism can be a reasonable shortcut to achieving some of this but it does not guarantee it. It is quite achievable with a meat eating diet such as the "Mediterranean-style" diet...0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.0 -
I grew up on a farm we raised animals for meat, and milk, I do not find meat unhealthy for me but I cannot seem to get enough protein so maybe I don't eat enough? I eat meat maybe once a day, I eat dairy sparingly have some intolerance for it, and veggies are typically somewhat low in protein compared to meat and dairy. Any ideas how to increase protein intake without going over in carbs daily???
1 -
Anyone who tries to claim eating meat, veganism or vegetarianism is healthier/unhealthier than the other is wrong. And the environmentally friendly claims about one particular way of eating is not 100% accurate either, you can totally find articles that claim non-meat food production can be just as harmful to our planet as meat production. It's just a matter of what you most feel comfortable with, decide for yourself what you would prefer. And don't feel guilty about it and don't listen to anyone who tells you you're wrong (infact ignore those people altogether, anyone who starts telling you to avoid certain food unless for allergy reasons needs to be pushed aside).1
-
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Dietary composition is healthier (forget the labels).
A healthy lifestyle includes regular physical exercise, not smoking, a happy relaxed mind, and a nutrient-rich balanced-calorie diet to maintain a moderately lean body weight.
Weight, hence dietary energy intake appears to be the major dietary factor determining the onset of age-related diseases such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer, dementia, etc...
A diet rich in fruits and vegetables, omega 3, with a micronutrient balance is more important than choosing an eating style with respect to the three choices given in the title. Vegetarianism can be a reasonable shortcut to achieving some of this but it does not guarantee it. It is quite achievable with a meat eating diet such as the "Mediterranean-style" diet...
This^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm on the Mediterraean diet--a little of everything, moderation. Just yesterday on TV, here in Italy, they were interviewing 90+ people on the island of Sardenia. One old guy was driving a truck up a mountain road. He was 100yrs old. The interviewer asked him what he eats for breakfast. He said milk and bread. This is typical of the older folks in Italy. My mother-in-law and her family were all the same. They take a big glass, put in some milk, break off chunks of bread (usually made with hard durum grain) and eat that. My MIL is now 95.1 -
Omnivore
I watch my macro intake to ensure sufficient protein intake which I get from pulses as well as dairy and meats
I watch some of my micro intake roughly but generally have a widely varied diet
meals may be vegetarian or meat based dependent on what I wish to eat. I have no ethical issues with consuming meat or wearing animal products.
I am also an active omnivore
My health has improved markedly since I lost excess weight and got, and remain fit, with progressive resistance and some cardio
So I think that's it - healthy lifestyle - meet your nutritional guidelines, move more and lift up stuff
0 -
iona_ellen wrote: »Hi,
I have friends who eat meat,, vegetarian & vegans. Doing a web search there is lots of sites with different views of which is overall healthier. What's your view? And from the nutrition side why did you choose this way?
Remember we're fitness 'pals' so stay friendly:D!
Depends on the person and if they are meeting their nutritional needs. An individual may be healthier choosing to eat less or no meat but I don't think you can say everyone is because you can still have poor nutrition with any of those choices.
A vegetarian who only eats white bread with processed cheese slices and no vegetables is probably not as healthy as a meat eater who has a balanced meal. A vegan who eats a proper balance of foods is probably doing better than the meat eater who eats a lot of fried food and snack cakes.
I eat meat. I also eat plenty of meatless meals. I'm doing okay healthwise.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »Dietary composition is healthier (forget the labels).
A healthy lifestyle includes regular physical exercise, not smoking, a happy relaxed mind, and a nutrient-rich balanced-calorie diet to maintain a moderately lean body weight.
Weight, hence dietary energy intake appears to be the major dietary factor determining the onset of age-related diseases such as cardiovascular disease, diabetes, cancer, dementia, etc...
A diet rich in fruits and vegetables, omega 3, with a micronutrient balance is more important than choosing an eating style with respect to the three choices given in the title. Vegetarianism can be a reasonable shortcut to achieving some of this but it does not guarantee it. It is quite achievable with a meat eating diet such as the "Mediterranean-style" diet...
Good post. A wide variety of foods can all be healthy choices in the right context.0 -
I have to wonder though would the results of that study be different if they used diabetics.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
0 -
I don't think most people or don't eat meat or animal products based on health. Like others pointed out, you can find ways to eat healthily (or unhealthily) with any diet.
I eat meat and I think my diet is more healthy and balanced when I do. That's mostly just laziness on my part though, because I struggle to use alternative sources of protein on days I happen to not eat meat, or less meat. I prefer leaner meats like chicken and turkey but I'll eat any kind.0 -
I had been a meat eater for the first 28 years of my life, until 2012. I jumped into a plant based diet and then slowly moved toward veganism over the last 3 years after a health scare where I had to cut out meat and dairy along with other things to prep for my treatment. And realized that I felt great not eating those things (aside from my other health issue) and when the treatment was over I just kept doing it while gathering more information on how to keep the plant based diet balanced and healthy. Leaving the ethics of vegetarian and veganism out of this, and based on my research over the last few years, I do believe that a plant based diet can be the most healthy in this time in history. I acknowledge from a purely nutritional perspective animal products can provide essential nutrients and many people live long lives on their standard diets. However, the animal products available today are much less nutrient dense and filled with artificial chemicals and added hormones whose side effects on humans long terms can be plainly seen in the health issues we have today. In my opinion, a plant based diet can be very balanced and potentially the most healthy option available to us today.0
-
Which of the 5 studies?ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have to wonder though would the results of that study be different if they used diabetics.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
Why do you imagine diabetics would generate different results?0 -
-
I'm a vegetarian on the cusp of becoming vegan. I'm a huge believer in knowing where my food comes from so I challenge everyone on this feed to watch a few documentaries such as 'Food Inc' and then ask yourself if you are okay with the way the animals are treated. But to each it's own
0 -
I'm a vegetarian on the cusp of becoming vegan. I'm a huge believer in knowing where my food comes from so I challenge everyone on this feed to watch a few documentaries such as 'Food Inc' and then ask yourself if you are okay with the way the animals are treated. But to each it's own
That's like watching Star Wars to get your information about NASA.6 -
0 -
Vegetarian since 1993. No desire to eat meat again (never really liked it in the first place...). No desire to become vegan either. Happy right where I am. Have both gained and lost weight as a vegetarian (and have seen the same from omnivores; don't actually know any vegans IRL).
FWIW, dairy, eggs, nuts and seeds, beans, and even whole grains provide all the protein I need.2 -
In most studies I've seen either a Vegetarian or Mediterranean diet is usually associated with best overall health. I eat meat and more than the Med Diet recommends but I do tend to think of it (Mediterranean Diet*) as the best for health, generally speaking.
*I am speaking of the defined Mediterranean Diet not of the personal diet(s) of anyone living in a Mediterranean region.0
Categories
- All Categories
- 1.4M Health, Wellness and Goals
- 393.4K Introduce Yourself
- 43.8K Getting Started
- 260.2K Health and Weight Loss
- 175.9K Food and Nutrition
- 47.4K Recipes
- 232.5K Fitness and Exercise
- 426 Sleep, Mindfulness and Overall Wellness
- 6.5K Goal: Maintaining Weight
- 8.5K Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
- 153K Motivation and Support
- 8K Challenges
- 1.3K Debate Club
- 96.3K Chit-Chat
- 2.5K Fun and Games
- 3.7K MyFitnessPal Information
- 24 News and Announcements
- 1.1K Feature Suggestions and Ideas
- 2.6K MyFitnessPal Tech Support Questions