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Meat Eater, Vegetarian or Vegan?
Replies
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I'm a vegetarian on the cusp of becoming vegan. I'm a huge believer in knowing where my food comes from so I challenge everyone on this feed to watch a few documentaries such as 'Food Inc' and then ask yourself if you are okay with the way the animals are treated. But to each it's own
That's like watching Star Wars to get your information about NASA.
Devil's Advocate: NASA has used ion engines for high efficiency propulsion, and the TIE in Imperial TIE fighter refers to Twin Ion Engine.0 -
I'm glad that this thread went so well. I was imagining a train wreck when I saw it appear.
I'm extremely glad that almost everyone has consistently said that any of the choices we were offered can be healthy or equally unhealthy.
It's also interesting to see everyone's reasons. The one thing I see over and over again, is personal preference and taste. Makes sense as the only form of dietary intake that will be healthy in the long term will be the one you adhere to and preference and taste will have so much to do with that.0 -
Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
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Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.
So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.
So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.
I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.
So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.
I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.
There doesn't seem to be any logic in that statement.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.
So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.
I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.
Is this backed up by any studies?
It's kind of like saying the most educated people are those who live by libraries because they have greatest access to books.
And I don't think we've even established that having all foods available is going to result in the best health. We're assuming that someone who eats a varied diet of plant-based foods is going to be less healthy than someone who eats a varied diet of plant foods plus animal foods. But I don't think that has been established, has it?0 -
Basically all of them. I know many diabetics (especially the ones on here) can say from personal experience that eating a diet that is fairly high in carbs (particularly over 60%) is off limits. I know this is more of a conjecture. But given how damaging it would be to their overall health, I can't imagine a full blown diabetic eating 70% carbs and yet having a much improved athletic performance and especially lower cortisol levels over a lower carb amount.
Which of the 5 studies?ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have to wonder though would the results of that study be different if they used diabetics.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
Why do you imagine diabetics would generate different results?
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All can be unhealthy... I've been all of them, now vegan since a few months. I occasionally indulge in dairy, when I'm eating out with friends. I'd say it can be easier to eat healthy as a vegan because you have to make sure you get all the nutrients you need, so you pay more attention to what you put in your mouth
But if you don't care, then yeah, it's pretty easy to stuff on carbs and fat stuff. Vegan desserts are also a bit too easy to make 
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Am a meat/chicken/fish (some veggies) eater. :-)
But, lately meats (mainly processed) are associated with some types of cancers, but again it depends whom you ask. For me, I usually eat meats in less (2-3 times/week) moderation, chicken is my main source for proteins and I do eat canned tuna, shrimps 2-3 times a week.
Again, let me say that ALL foods in moderation is good.... all the best.
Thanks.!!0 -
Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
Logically, a diet that doesn't exclude hemlock is always going to be healthier than one that does, because it includes all those foods and hemlock.0 -
I would say it is easier to eat a varied and balanced diet as a meat eater (I include fish in the meat category since there is no pescatarian option in the OP). Meat eaters have the most product choice, and getting protein needs met is easier if you can have meat.
However, any of the diets listed can be healthy or unhealthy.0 -
I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons0
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karmelpopcorn wrote: »I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons
People avoiding animal products have lots of options for low fat protein sources -- beans, grains, seitan, tofu, and tempeh are not high fat foods. Many protein powders are also low in fat. Lacto-ovo vegetarians also have the option to include low fat dairy and egg whites in their diet.
Is it easier to meet protein goals as a meat eater? Yes, especially for people who are raised eating meat. But it's totally possible for vegetarians and vegans to meet protein goals or include lots of protein in their diet to lose weight. Once you research the foods that are out there and incorporate some new choices into your diet, it isn't especially difficult.0 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Uhh... I eat meat and am aware that it's unhealthy and risky. But meat in my mind is the centerpiece of a meal.
I don't like the way they kill or treat animals but I can't change other people
You've been misinformed. It is neither unhealthy nor risky.
ETA unless you're eating it raw.
It is unhealthy
And risky as in who knows if every bit reaches 165 righttr
Being vegetarian is just as bad unless you buy everything organic
As has been said, eating meat is not inherently unhealthy.
Personally, I'd rather gamble that my food thermometer is accurate than that the organic produce is being farmed in a sufficiently sanitary way*. Keep in mind, when your lettuce is contaminated because the irrigation water was contaminated, there's no washing the bacteria away. Since much of it ends up in raw preparations, well. Best hope your immune system is up to the challenge
Granted, the only time I've gotten food poisoning was from a beet and romaine salad - and it was severe. So I may be biased.
* Incidence of widespread contamination like this is very low. I still eat salads. Still of the opinion that properly cooked meat is safer.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.
Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.
Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.
A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.
So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.
I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.
I do see what you're trying to say about omnivores. If it was pure set theory, an omnivorous diet would include the set that is vegetarian, and vegetarian would include vegan, therefore an omnivorous selection would have to be at least equal in set of vegan and vegetarian.
The problem is that diet is more of a weighted, Bayesian probability kind of thing. Removing categories might actually improve the probability of health if those things have tendency to give weight to negative health outcomes, and even if they don't, elimination of neutral items could force increased positive weighted health outcome things - like the average vegan might eat more fruits and vegetables than an omnivore because they seek variety and the categories in meat and dairy are off the menu.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »karmelpopcorn wrote: »I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons
People avoiding animal products have lots of options for low fat protein sources -- beans, grains, seitan, tofu, and tempeh are not high fat foods. Many protein powders are also low in fat. Lacto-ovo vegetarians also have the option to include low fat dairy and egg whites in their diet.
Is it easier to meet protein goals as a meat eater? Yes, especially for people who are raised eating meat. But it's totally possible for vegetarians and vegans to meet protein goals or include lots of protein in their diet to lose weight. Once you research the foods that are out there and incorporate some new choices into your diet, it isn't especially difficult.
You're also more likely to overlap protein goals with fiber goals when using vegan sources.0 -
karmelpopcorn wrote: »I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating.
Actually, pork tenderloin is just as lean, sometimes more so, than chicken breast.
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Omnivore because of efficiency, my teeth, and my stomach. I'm designed for it. Meat, eggs, and dairy are effective sources of protein and some of the vitamins. I don't eat meat every day, but at least weekly. Dairy every day.0
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Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
The logic is there but I would argue that may not be the case when the supply of meat and dairy is full of harmful chemicals and hormones. It may be healthier to limit conventional animal products or skip them all together if they are not available. Just a thought...1 -
karmelpopcorn wrote: »I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons
I have been vegan for a few years now and I don't find it hard to get all my protein and most veggie protein is low fat unless they are cooked oils or butter, ect. I will admit in the beginning I was unsure where to get protein except tofu, beans, nuts, ect. But I learned as I went along that there are so plant based sources of protein and most of them are low fat when unprocessed.0 -
karmelpopcorn wrote: »I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons
No, not necessarily. Vegetarians can consume protein-rich dairy, along with tofu, seitan and tempeh (all rich in protein) along with the standard nuts, beans and legumes.
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Need2Exerc1se wrote: »
And if one tended to add foods that one should eat in the same proportions. Lots of meat-eaters (SAD, for example) may exclude vegetables (or eat too few), even though they have no ethical objections.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.
Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.
Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.
A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.
In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.
The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.
Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.0 -
ForecasterJason wrote: »
Basically all of them. I know many diabetics (especially the ones on here) can say from personal experience that eating a diet that is fairly high in carbs (particularly over 60%) is off limits. I know this is more of a conjecture. But given how damaging it would be to their overall health, I can't imagine a full blown diabetic eating 70% carbs and yet having a much improved athletic performance and especially lower cortisol levels over a lower carb amount.
Which of the 5 studies?ForecasterJason wrote: »
I have to wonder though would the results of that study be different if they used diabetics.lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
Why do you imagine diabetics would generate different results?
I'm basically bored of every discussion becoming about diabetics, so am not that interested in this topic.
However, it is worth noting, again, that there are many traditional diets with much higher percentages of carb consumption than the SAD, and the percentage of T2diabetics is basically nil. That suggests that the issue for the growth in T2D in the US is not carb consumption, but being overweight and having a poor diet (including poor choices when it comes to carbs).
My understanding from educated T2D who have followed appropriate medical advice and controlled their diabetes is that low carb is less an issue than having moderate carbs combined with other food choices (and often reducing foods like sat fat too).
Also, while exercise can lead to BS spikes, on the whole exercising intensely will allow for more carbs, even for someone with IR (which, again, is not, in fact, most people, so it is irritatingly that every topic becomes about that).0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.
Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.
Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.
A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.
In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.
The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.
Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.
Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.
My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.
And yes, I agree. People not on a ketogenic diet burn fat too, just not as efficiently as those who are fat adapted, according to the link below. Fat oxidation of ketogenic and HCLF elite endurance athletes was compared during exercise. The LCHF group had higher rates of fat oxidation.
http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
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VeganMotoGirl wrote: »Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
The logic is there but I would argue that may not be the case when the supply of meat and dairy is full of harmful chemicals and hormones. It may be healthier to limit conventional animal products or skip them all together if they are not available. Just a thought...
The argument could also be made that a vegan diet isn't healthier if it's full of oreos, french fries and vegetables treated with pesticides. See how one can use extremes to make any point?
Propaganda and fearmongering aside, not all "conventional animal products" are "full of harmful chemicals and hormones". I know that's more or less the standard vegan mantra, but it's nowhere near the truth.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.
Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/lemurcat12 wrote: »ForecasterJason wrote: »
If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.
I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.
If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.
For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/" and the cited studies.
This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.
Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.
A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.
In that there are multiple studies, I think you have.
The assertion that keto is better for muscle gain/sparing seems to me to be entirely unsupported and contrary to the evidence I've seen.
Also, people who don't have a keto diet are still able to burn fat and do.
Sorry. I did not type that very clearly. Multiple three day studies still doesn't prove much when it comes to keto adapted muscle sparing. I never brought up muscle gain at all. I simply said I was confident I was getting adequate protein for my needs, which can be safely low to moderate to address my insulin sensitivity, without worrying about lacking protein due in part to the muscle sparing effects of a ketogenic diet.
My supporting evidence (for people eating very low carb high fat over the long term - like me) that my ketogenic diet is muscle sparing was linked above.
First, these aren't keto diets, so the negative effects cannot be explained by ketosis not kicking in yet, and therefore I think the criticism of the length isn't convincing. And there are other important problems for muscle-building/repair, like amino acids not being as effectively transmitted to the muscles, which is likely an effect of the desired low insulin, since that is one of insulin's jobs. Colpo goes into the studies on keto specifically in his book and some of those are much longer-term studies.
Beyond that, of course, being more adapted to use fat than glycogen (and I agree that one can train oneself to be better at that, although I'd advise reading the various criticisms of the Volek studies too, and there are ways to do this short of low carbing, and again it's pretty striking that the vast majority of athletes even in endurance sports don't low carb or keto and that even the extreme endurance athletes use carbs for performance), saying nothing about whether you will also use muscle or have more issues maintaining muscle. It's simply a different subject.
In any event, for most people it may not matter much, and low carbing can be healthy (if one eats adequate vegetables).0
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