Calorie Counter

You are currently viewing the message boards in:

Meat Eater, Vegetarian or Vegan?

1246738

Replies

  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    Hornsby wrote: »
    kmbrvt99 wrote: »
    I'm a vegetarian on the cusp of becoming vegan. I'm a huge believer in knowing where my food comes from so I challenge everyone on this feed to watch a few documentaries such as 'Food Inc' and then ask yourself if you are okay with the way the animals are treated. But to each it's own =)

    That's like watching Star Wars to get your information about NASA.

    Devil's Advocate: NASA has used ion engines for high efficiency propulsion, and the TIE in Imperial TIE fighter refers to Twin Ion Engine.
  • BecomingBaneBecomingBane Posts: 3,648Member Member Posts: 3,648Member Member
    I'm glad that this thread went so well. I was imagining a train wreck when I saw it appear.

    I'm extremely glad that almost everyone has consistently said that any of the choices we were offered can be healthy or equally unhealthy.

    It's also interesting to see everyone's reasons. The one thing I see over and over again, is personal preference and taste. Makes sense as the only form of dietary intake that will be healthy in the long term will be the one you adhere to and preference and taste will have so much to do with that.
  • _John__John_ Posts: 8,601Member Member Posts: 8,601Member Member
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

  • Need2Exerc1seNeed2Exerc1se Posts: 13,589Member Member Posts: 13,589Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...
    That would only be logical if the food not being excluded enhances the diet.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Posts: 20,809Member Member Posts: 20,809Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.

    So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.
  • _John__John_ Posts: 8,601Member Member Posts: 8,601Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.

    So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.

    I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.
  • Need2Exerc1seNeed2Exerc1se Posts: 13,589Member Member Posts: 13,589Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.

    So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.

    I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.

    There doesn't seem to be any logic in that statement.
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Posts: 20,809Member Member Posts: 20,809Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.

    So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.

    I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.

    Is this backed up by any studies?

    It's kind of like saying the most educated people are those who live by libraries because they have greatest access to books.

    And I don't think we've even established that having all foods available is going to result in the best health. We're assuming that someone who eats a varied diet of plant-based foods is going to be less healthy than someone who eats a varied diet of plant foods plus animal foods. But I don't think that has been established, has it?
  • ForecasterJasonForecasterJason Posts: 2,582Member Member Posts: 2,582Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.
    I have to wonder though would the results of that study be different if they used diabetics.
    Which of the 5 studies?
    Why do you imagine diabetics would generate different results?
    Basically all of them. I know many diabetics (especially the ones on here) can say from personal experience that eating a diet that is fairly high in carbs (particularly over 60%) is off limits. I know this is more of a conjecture. But given how damaging it would be to their overall health, I can't imagine a full blown diabetic eating 70% carbs and yet having a much improved athletic performance and especially lower cortisol levels over a lower carb amount.

  • CassLaBaraqueCassLaBaraque Posts: 4Member Member Posts: 4Member Member
    All can be unhealthy... I've been all of them, now vegan since a few months. I occasionally indulge in dairy, when I'm eating out with friends. I'd say it can be easier to eat healthy as a vegan because you have to make sure you get all the nutrients you need, so you pay more attention to what you put in your mouth :) But if you don't care, then yeah, it's pretty easy to stuff on carbs and fat stuff. Vegan desserts are also a bit too easy to make ;)
  • mankarsmankars Posts: 115Member Member Posts: 115Member Member
    Am a meat/chicken/fish (some veggies) eater. :-)

    But, lately meats (mainly processed) are associated with some types of cancers, but again it depends whom you ask. For me, I usually eat meats in less (2-3 times/week) moderation, chicken is my main source for proteins and I do eat canned tuna, shrimps 2-3 times a week.

    Again, let me say that ALL foods in moderation is good.... all the best.

    Thanks.!!
    edited February 2016
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    Logically, a diet that doesn't exclude hemlock is always going to be healthier than one that does, because it includes all those foods and hemlock.
  • stealthqstealthq Posts: 4,307Member Member Posts: 4,307Member Member
    I would say it is easier to eat a varied and balanced diet as a meat eater (I include fish in the meat category since there is no pescatarian option in the OP). Meat eaters have the most product choice, and getting protein needs met is easier if you can have meat.

    However, any of the diets listed can be healthy or unhealthy.
  • karmelpopcornkarmelpopcorn Posts: 77Member Member Posts: 77Member Member
    I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons
  • janejellyrolljanejellyroll Posts: 20,809Member Member Posts: 20,809Member Member
    I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons

    People avoiding animal products have lots of options for low fat protein sources -- beans, grains, seitan, tofu, and tempeh are not high fat foods. Many protein powders are also low in fat. Lacto-ovo vegetarians also have the option to include low fat dairy and egg whites in their diet.

    Is it easier to meet protein goals as a meat eater? Yes, especially for people who are raised eating meat. But it's totally possible for vegetarians and vegans to meet protein goals or include lots of protein in their diet to lose weight. Once you research the foods that are out there and incorporate some new choices into your diet, it isn't especially difficult.
  • stealthqstealthq Posts: 4,307Member Member Posts: 4,307Member Member
    pie_eyes wrote: »
    Carlos_421 wrote: »
    pie_eyes wrote: »
    Uhh... I eat meat and am aware that it's unhealthy and risky. But meat in my mind is the centerpiece of a meal.

    I don't like the way they kill or treat animals but I can't change other people

    You've been misinformed. It is neither unhealthy nor risky.

    ETA unless you're eating it raw.

    It is unhealthy

    And risky as in who knows if every bit reaches 165 righttr

    Being vegetarian is just as bad unless you buy everything organic

    As has been said, eating meat is not inherently unhealthy.

    Personally, I'd rather gamble that my food thermometer is accurate than that the organic produce is being farmed in a sufficiently sanitary way*. Keep in mind, when your lettuce is contaminated because the irrigation water was contaminated, there's no washing the bacteria away. Since much of it ends up in raw preparations, well. Best hope your immune system is up to the challenge

    Granted, the only time I've gotten food poisoning was from a beet and romaine salad - and it was severe. So I may be biased.

    * Incidence of widespread contamination like this is very low. I still eat salads. Still of the opinion that properly cooked meat is safer.
  • nvmomketonvmomketo Posts: 12,031Member Member Posts: 12,031Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    Odd, the one time bro science was (incorrectly) carbs can spare protein but I've never seen even bro science, let alone actual research that a ketogenic diet spares muscle, particularly without exercise.
    Generally it is training, calories, and protein that spare muscle.

    Ketogenic diets are muscle sparing, meaning they do not catabolize muscle. Someone who is keto adapted will be using fats for fuel so there is less need to use muscle protein to create glucose for energy.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1373635/
    Phinney and Volek go into it in their book, The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance. http://ketogains.com/2015/10/the-art-and-science-of-low-carbohydrate-performance-by-jeff-s-volek-and-stephen-d-phinney-a-summary/
    Getting into the high fat oxidation rates of ketogenic athletes: http://www.ultrarunning.com/features/health-and-nutrition/the-emerging-science-on-fat-adaptation/
    lemurcat12 wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I keep protein to about 20% for blood glucose reasons.

    I know eating almost like a carnivore seems odd but I think that is because it is uncommon, and because of the anti cholesterol and saturated fats messages (based on what i think was a lack of science to back it up) that became so widely accepted in the past 50 odd years. I think eventually that being a carnivore will be though to be about as unusual as a vegetarian or vegan.
    If you don't mind me asking, I'm curious as to roughly what percentage of body weight does that protein intake work out to be for you.

    I keep my protein around 65-75g or so per day with a caloric intake set at about 1500kcal. My weight is 150lb. I find my BG starts being affected once my protein gets above 25%, or over 80-85g.

    If my BG starts creeping up, I lower protein a bit, and carbs a lot. I am not doing any consistent exercise, and since a ketogenic diet is muscle sparing, I am sure I am getting enough protein for my needs.

    For anyone interested in this, I'd recommend also reading this: "http://anthonycolpo.com/why-low-carb-diets-are-inferior-for-strength-muscle-gains/"; and the cited studies.

    This doesn't appear to be a very good study. Perhaps I've read it wrong.

    Three day studies won't tell you much of anything about someone on a ketogenic or low carb diet. It usually takes a few weeks for athletes to become fully fat adapted. After three days of having lower carbs (and over 200g of carbs per day is not really that low) people will just have depleted glycogen stores and feel tired, especially if sodium was not increased as well.

    A long term study of keto adapted subjects would provide better data. Plus this was not really about muscle sparing abilities of diets.
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    _John_ wrote: »
    _John_ wrote: »
    Logically, a "meat eater" (as defined by the OP) is ALWAYS going to be healthier because their diet doesn't exclude foods, yet includes all the foods available to the vegetarian and vegan...

    Those foods are theoretically available to them, but when looking at the diets of meat eaters, we can see a wide variation in how often they're actually choosing them. Some people who eat meat eat a lot of plant foods. Others don't.

    So it doesn't follow that a meat eater is always going to be healthier than a vegetarian or vegan. Just knowing someone eats meat doesn't tell us much -- it doesn't tell us what others foods they are eating, how many calories they're eating overall, and what their macro/micro intake is.

    I didn't mean to say ALL meat eaters are healthier, just that the healthiest subset that can occur is going to be "meat eaters" because all foods are available to choose from.

    I do see what you're trying to say about omnivores. If it was pure set theory, an omnivorous diet would include the set that is vegetarian, and vegetarian would include vegan, therefore an omnivorous selection would have to be at least equal in set of vegan and vegetarian.
    The problem is that diet is more of a weighted, Bayesian probability kind of thing. Removing categories might actually improve the probability of health if those things have tendency to give weight to negative health outcomes, and even if they don't, elimination of neutral items could force increased positive weighted health outcome things - like the average vegan might eat more fruits and vegetables than an omnivore because they seek variety and the categories in meat and dairy are off the menu.
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating. That said, I strive for a plant-based diet, and indulge in meat and dairy as little as possible for environmental and ethical reasons

    People avoiding animal products have lots of options for low fat protein sources -- beans, grains, seitan, tofu, and tempeh are not high fat foods. Many protein powders are also low in fat. Lacto-ovo vegetarians also have the option to include low fat dairy and egg whites in their diet.

    Is it easier to meet protein goals as a meat eater? Yes, especially for people who are raised eating meat. But it's totally possible for vegetarians and vegans to meet protein goals or include lots of protein in their diet to lose weight. Once you research the foods that are out there and incorporate some new choices into your diet, it isn't especially difficult.

    You're also more likely to overlap protein goals with fiber goals when using vegan sources.
  • Need2Exerc1seNeed2Exerc1se Posts: 13,589Member Member Posts: 13,589Member Member
    I think it's easier to lose weightwhen you include lean protein as part of your diet, and it's difficult to do so as a vegetarian. There's no leaner meat than chicken breast, which is very satiating.

    Actually, pork tenderloin is just as lean, sometimes more so, than chicken breast.
Sign In or Register to comment.