Paleo diet: honest debate
Replies
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Managed with medication. I'm disputing your statement that kids "grow" out of it when becoming adults and that's just not true.robs_ready wrote: »
Not according to the CDC.robs_ready wrote: »myheartsabattleground wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »To aid with left over symptoms of adhd as a child, inattentiveness and sleep problems.
WRONG. You're born with ADHD, you'll die with ADHD. It doesn't magically go away when you get older.
No, adhd is a 'behavioral' disorder not a 'mental' illness or 'syndrome', most individuals with adhd grow out of it as adults.
And I agree with them since I have a relative who's had it and still has it at 40 years old. Without medication, he's hard to deal with.However, children with ADHD do not just grow out of these behaviors. The symptoms continue and can cause difficulty at school, at home, or with friends.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/facts.html
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Not according to the CDC.robs_ready wrote: »myheartsabattleground wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »To aid with left over symptoms of adhd as a child, inattentiveness and sleep problems.
WRONG. You're born with ADHD, you'll die with ADHD. It doesn't magically go away when you get older.
No, adhd is a 'behavioral' disorder not a 'mental' illness or 'syndrome', most individuals with adhd grow out of it as adults.
And I agree with them since I have a relative who's had it and still has it at 40 years old. Without medication, he's hard to deal with.However, children with ADHD do not just grow out of these behaviors. The symptoms continue and can cause difficulty at school, at home, or with friends.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/facts.html
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
The UK has the DSM which labels it as a cognitive behavioral disorder, that's not to say it's not real but adhd is a condition that can be managed effectively.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Excess calories = fat
I don't think anyone here is saying to eliminate all carbs. I follow a low carb diet and still consume carbs as part of a healthy, balanced diet, I just get them from fruits, and vegetables, and dairy, instead of through grains. For me personally, I am more sated following a diet high in fat and low in carbs, it keeps my snacking to a minimum and has eliminated my cravings. I still track my calories, because CICO, but this woe is much easier for me to maintain.
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Indeed...queenliz99 wrote: »themilla497 wrote: »Carbs= Fat, cut out carbs to be less fat.
Sounds legit
Too many calories = fat. Your post was sarcasm, I hope. Carbs can be part of anyone's way of eating.
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I went on a strict paleo diet for about 4 months due to suggestion from my naturopath. The first month of it was elimination diet to try to see if there was a food that was causing my constant migraines. After the elimination portion the next month was putting food back in. After that she wanted me to maintain paleo for weight loss.
While I had great results, I stopped following paleo because it was too hard to meal plan. I have a severe nut allergy, so a lot of paleo diet relies on nuts. So with being grain free, nut free, dairy free, sugar free, legume free ETC. It was so hard to get enough food. I ended up falling off that wagon when I got married last year and gained a "Married 15".
The only thing I still maintain from paleo is eating a lot fewer grains and I am strictly gluten free. When getting rid of it my chronic migraines are gone.
When I was eating paleo I had significant results that were performance related, slept better, more energy.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Did you read what you linked? I didn't say dairy was the only source but it is, as noted in your link, a great source. The other sources which were argued for above and to which I responded aren't. Eat lots of spinach! I'll keep enjoying dairy rather than cutting out based on some guru's book.
ETA: the link calls dairy an "excellent" source and lists dairy as having more calcium than the other sources listed. You clearly didn't read the link before posting it.0 -
Gianfranco_R wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »I don't know why people keep insisting that paleo is similar to keto or HFLC. Paleo is generally neutral on the amount of carbs you consume. Some (like Sisson, who has his own "primal" thing anyway) are generally pro lower carbs, but many are not. Robb Wolf has more a claim to speak for the paleo mainstream than Sisson given his past work with Loren Cordain, and here's his view on paleo and carbs: http://robbwolf.com/2014/12/04/using-evolution-and-exercise-physiology-to-customize-your-carb-intake/
Wolf's take is pretty much what's common among the CFers I know (where, of course, paleo is pretty common). Even with paleo challenges (and yes, I did one once), they were really pushing getting in carbs around workouts and not going too low. Of course, many people are going to cut down on carbs merely because they cut out sweets (although that cuts fat too for most) and of course grains. But there are other really carb-y options, like the super popular sweet potato, the plantain, and even the potato (which seems to be normally accepted, even the W30 people did a turn around).
It's simply a matter of fact that the diet of ketoers/low-carbers look "paleoish" (or lacto-paleoish). So the two communities are close and somewhat influence each other (you see for instance paleo dieters into the bulletproof coffe thing, that has no rationale whatsoever on a paleolithic diet).
I have a friend who does paleo...he eats sweet potatoes like they're candy and apparently good old white potatoes are now gaining acceptance within that whack *kitten* community (not sure what the *kitten* is wrong with a potato to make it non-paleo in the first place..it's a whole friggin' food). At any rate, he's definitely not keto and I would say his overall consumption of carbs is probably moderate much like my own...but really, the way he does paleo anyway bears little to no resemblance to LCHF/keto diets.0 -
ADHD symptoms in adults tend to attenuate as puberty sees the prefontal cortex develop and the increased executive functions allow more control. They do not entirely disappear for all or probably even most individuals.0
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Actually, ADHD is a mental illness, listed in the DSM V (yes, the US uses this book too) as one of the neurodevelopmental disorders. Symptoms might lessen in severity as people age, but it's there whether you like it or not. And diet isn't necessarily going to change that.
From the DSM-V "The ADHD diagnosis in previous editions of DSM was written to help clinicians identify the disorder in children. Almost two decades of research conclusively show that a significant number of individuals diagnosed with ADHD as children continue to experience the disorder as adults. Evidence of this came from studies in which individuals were tracked for years or even decades after their initial childhood diagnosis. The results showed that ADHD does not fade at a specific age".
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Good luck to you. I can't afford organic, naturally pastured meat very often, unfortunately. We're kind of stuck with what's on sale.0
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Did you read what you linked? I didn't say dairy was the only source but it is, as noted in your link, a great source. The other sources which were argued for above and to which I responded aren't. Eat lots of spinach! I'll keep enjoying dairy rather than cutting out based on some guru's book.
ETA: the link calls dairy an "excellent" source and lists dairy as having more calcium than the other sources listed. You clearly didn't read the link before posting it.
Do you work for the dairy council or something? LOL Yes, dairy is an "excellent source" of calcium but it isn't the main source of calcium for most of the world. Most Asians and Africans are not big milk drinkers. Many people are not by choice, and then there are others who just aren't exposed to it. Those people still get plenty of calsium in their diet from other sources... which was my point for posting the link to the calcium content in food... which I read.
I added it because you seem to be fixated on calcium content as a way to judge a diet. Removing dairy from a diet is not a big game changer for most people and their Ca intake as long as they eat veggies or meat. Paleo is not inviting osteoporosis for skipping dairy.0 -
If people want to eat like our ancestors ate, then here ya go.
Our ancestors gorged themselves when food was available, and starved themselves when it wasn't. Think of it this way: caveman kills mammoth. Caveman has no access to refrigeration, no way to cure the meat, and no way to keep it from spoiling - so caveman eats as much as he possibly can. Maybe in upwards of 6,000 cals. Caveman leaves remains of mammoth to spoil and goes on his way. Fast forward a few days. Caveman is hungry, as he hasn't eaten since his last mammoth kill. He hunts down another mammoth - but alas, this one gets away, leaving Caveman to starve for a little while till he hunts down another one and manages to kill it.
Then the cycle repeats itself.
That's how people during the paleolithic era ate. Today, if we saw someone gorging themselves, then starving themselves, we'd call it an eating disorder.
Case in point: Paleo Diet looks nothing like an actual paleolithic diet. Therefore, paleo diet has a dumb name.0 -
And there wasn't bottled or filtered water either. Toilet water today is much "cleaner" than the water they had access to back then.If people want to eat like our ancestors ate, then here ya go.
Our ancestors gorged themselves when food was available, and starved themselves when it wasn't. Think of it this way: caveman kills mammoth. Caveman has no access to refrigeration, no way to cure the meat, and no way to keep it from spoiling - so caveman eats as much as he possibly can. Maybe in upwards of 6,000 cals. Caveman leaves remains of mammoth to spoil and goes on his way. Fast forward a few days. Caveman is hungry, as he hasn't eaten since his last mammoth kill. He hunts down another mammoth - but alas, this one gets away, leaving Caveman to starve for a little while till he hunts down another one and manages to kill it.
Then the cycle repeats itself.
That's how people during the paleolithic era ate. Today, if we saw someone gorging themselves, then starving themselves, we'd call it an eating disorder.
Case in point: Paleo Diet looks nothing like an actual paleolithic diet. Therefore, paleo diet has a dumb name.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?0 -
If people want to eat like our ancestors ate, then here ya go.
Our ancestors gorged themselves when food was available, and starved themselves when it wasn't. Think of it this way: caveman kills mammoth. Caveman has no access to refrigeration, no way to cure the meat, and no way to keep it from spoiling - so caveman eats as much as he possibly can. Maybe in upwards of 6,000 cals. Caveman leaves remains of mammoth to spoil and goes on his way. Fast forward a few days. Caveman is hungry, as he hasn't eaten since his last mammoth kill. He hunts down another mammoth - but alas, this one gets away, leaving Caveman to starve for a little while till he hunts down another one and manages to kill it.
Then the cycle repeats itself.
That's how people during the paleolithic era ate. Today, if we saw someone gorging themselves, then starving themselves, we'd call it an eating disorder.
Case in point: Paleo Diet looks nothing like an actual paleolithic diet. Therefore, paleo diet has a dumb name.
What? You mean paleolithic people did not buy bacon from the local grocery shop? You must be mistaken for sure, it appears to be the basic food for all paleo dieters I know
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not sure i want to eat like people who constantly starved and... lived until like.. 20... and yes i know a lot of that is probably modern medicine and not dying during child birth... but still.0
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sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?
Yes I typed that badly.
There are other sources of Ca, just as good if not better, and more easily absorbed than from the dairy. Ca is not much good if the calcium is not readily available/absorbed.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?
Yes I typed that badly.
There are other sources of Ca, just as good if not better, and more easily absorbed than from the dairy. Ca is not much good if the calcium is not readily available/absorbed.
Do you have any links on this? My mother used to insist that calcium in dairy is by far more easily to absorb than in any other source, especially if dairy is full fat. She was a dr and was working with patients suffering from osteoporosis, so I always assumed she knew what she was talking about. But I admit I have never researched this myself.0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?
Yes I typed that badly.
There are other sources of Ca, just as good if not better, and more easily absorbed than from the dairy. Ca is not much good if the calcium is not readily available/absorbed.
Do you have any links on this? My mother used to insist that calcium in dairy is by far more easily to absorb than in any other source, especially if dairy is full fat. She was a dr and was working with patients suffering from osteoporosis, so I always assumed she knew what she was talking about. But I admit I have never researched this myself.
The problem is not only the absorption, but also the excretion. And in this respect not all the dairy sources are created equal:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/72/3/681.long0 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?
Yes I typed that badly.
There are other sources of Ca, just as good if not better, and more easily absorbed than from the dairy. Ca is not much good if the calcium is not readily available/absorbed.
Do you have any links on this? My mother used to insist that calcium in dairy is by far more easily to absorb than in any other source, especially if dairy is full fat. She was a dr and was working with patients suffering from osteoporosis, so I always assumed she knew what she was talking about. But I admit I have never researched this myself.
She knew what she was talking about.
In general - calcium absorption is an assisted process and requires the presence of several vitamins. Vitamin D is the most important of those - but other vitamins (K,E, etc...) also participate.
Stating "dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it" is flat out wrong, overall dairy products remains the best source of calcium. But just as wrong is this whole "can't get enough calcium on paleo" discussion - of course it is possible and relatively easy.
The real issue on osteoporosis remain lifestyle - the single most important cause is sedentary life - insufficient activity and no sunlight ... well, you can eat all the sardines and soy yoghurt in the world - without active exercise the osteoclast/osteoblast bone formation and remodeling will favour absorption. The issue isn't so much what one eats (it may be) but an overall approach of eating well AND being active outdoors. And the second part is AS much if not more important.
Edit: TL;DR - osteoporosis isn't about whether you eat or not diary.1 -
sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?
The poster misrepresented what was in the link. Not surprising.0 -
EvgeniZyntx wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?
Yes I typed that badly.
There are other sources of Ca, just as good if not better, and more easily absorbed than from the dairy. Ca is not much good if the calcium is not readily available/absorbed.
Do you have any links on this? My mother used to insist that calcium in dairy is by far more easily to absorb than in any other source, especially if dairy is full fat. She was a dr and was working with patients suffering from osteoporosis, so I always assumed she knew what she was talking about. But I admit I have never researched this myself.
She knew what she was talking about.
In general - calcium absorption is an assisted process and requires the presence of several vitamins. Vitamin D is the most important of those - but other vitamins (K,E, etc...) also participate.
Stating "dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it" is flat out wrong, overall dairy products remains the best source of calcium. But just as wrong is this whole "can't get enough calcium on paleo" discussion - of course it is possible and relatively easy.
The real issue on osteoporosis remain lifestyle - the single most important cause is sedentary life - insufficient activity and no sunlight ... well, you can eat all the sardines and soy yoghurt in the world - without active exercise the osteoclast/osteoblast bone formation and remodeling will favour absorption. The issue isn't so much what one eats (it may be) but an overall approach of eating well AND being active outdoors. And the second part is AS much if not more important.
Edit: TL;DR - osteoporosis isn't about whether you eat or not diary.
To the bolded, BRAVO!0 -
^ Yes.lithezebra wrote: »positivepowers wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »I hated it and I was miserable.
^^^^This. Also, I might point out that old age during paleolithic times was considered to be 30-35 years old, 40 for a really old dude.
According to Psychology Today, "First, there was not one Palaeolithic diet; there were many. Diets varied according to local availability, according to technical know-how, and according to simple taste. In tropical habitats hunters and gatherers tend to rely heavily on gathered plants, including often grains and tubers. In higher latitudes, where primate-friendly plants are fewer, hunters and gatherers rely more on animal protein. This is true among modern hunters and gatherers, and was true for most of human evolution. The advocates for a caveman diet do have one thing sort of correct: meat has been a significant component of hominin diets for probably two million years. Indeed, we may have meat to thank for our large brains (which we addressed in a previous blog and more on this in another post). But the percentage of meat in the diet varied dramatically over the course of human evolution. Humans have always been pretty eclectic in their dietary choices, as they had to be in order to expand into so many different habitats." So, in actuality, the entire diet is a fallacy, paleo people ate whatever didn't eat them, including potatoes and grains.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-think-neandertal/201311/the-truth-about-the-caveman-diet
Some people lived for a long time so 30 or 40 was not considered old.
There was a higher degree of infant mortality that brought down the average age.
People also died of relatively minor injuries that got infected.
And diseases such as scurvy, rickets, beriberi and pellegra which are caused solely by nutritional deficiencies, all of which would be caused by an allmeat or predominantly meat diet.0 -
positivepowers wrote: »
^ Yes.lithezebra wrote: »positivepowers wrote: »queenliz99 wrote: »I hated it and I was miserable.
^^^^This. Also, I might point out that old age during paleolithic times was considered to be 30-35 years old, 40 for a really old dude.
According to Psychology Today, "First, there was not one Palaeolithic diet; there were many. Diets varied according to local availability, according to technical know-how, and according to simple taste. In tropical habitats hunters and gatherers tend to rely heavily on gathered plants, including often grains and tubers. In higher latitudes, where primate-friendly plants are fewer, hunters and gatherers rely more on animal protein. This is true among modern hunters and gatherers, and was true for most of human evolution. The advocates for a caveman diet do have one thing sort of correct: meat has been a significant component of hominin diets for probably two million years. Indeed, we may have meat to thank for our large brains (which we addressed in a previous blog and more on this in another post). But the percentage of meat in the diet varied dramatically over the course of human evolution. Humans have always been pretty eclectic in their dietary choices, as they had to be in order to expand into so many different habitats." So, in actuality, the entire diet is a fallacy, paleo people ate whatever didn't eat them, including potatoes and grains.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/how-think-neandertal/201311/the-truth-about-the-caveman-diet
Some people lived for a long time so 30 or 40 was not considered old.
There was a higher degree of infant mortality that brought down the average age.
People also died of relatively minor injuries that got infected.
And diseases such as scurvy, rickets, beriberi and pellegra which are caused solely by nutritional deficiencies, all of which would be caused by an allmeat or predominantly meat diet.
What? Neither rickets, beriberi or pellagra are due to predominantly meat diets. The causes are mostly common with specific nutritional deficiencies that are generally NOT seen in high meat diets or have other primary factors of deficiency.0 -
robs_ready wrote: »myheartsabattleground wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »To aid with left over symptoms of adhd as a child, inattentiveness and sleep problems.
WRONG. You're born with ADHD, you'll die with ADHD. It doesn't magically go away when you get older.
No, adhd is a 'behavioral' disorder not a 'mental' illness or 'syndrome', most individuals with adhd grow out of it as adults.
Hmmmmnnnn....I would LOVE love love to see this study or when and how this conclusion was made. My daughter has ADD and it is just as prevalent in her life now, at 26, as it was in 4th grade. Please share a link or two?1 -
Cindy01Louisiana wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »myheartsabattleground wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »To aid with left over symptoms of adhd as a child, inattentiveness and sleep problems.
WRONG. You're born with ADHD, you'll die with ADHD. It doesn't magically go away when you get older.
No, adhd is a 'behavioral' disorder not a 'mental' illness or 'syndrome', most individuals with adhd grow out of it as adults.
Hmmmmnnnn....I would LOVE love love to see this study or when and how this conclusion was made. My daughter has ADD and it is just as prevalent in her life now, at 26, as it was in 4th grade. Please share a link or two?
Sure, although If you Google adhd NHS you'll see a link there, which clearly highlights adhd as a set of behaviour problems, as opposed to a mental illness.
Adhd does usually come with comorbid mental health problems.0 -
I've been Paleo for 2 months now, 20 lbs have slid off.... awesome! I'm not hungry anymore and my appetite seems to be decreasing. I was concerned in the beginning because all the fat seemed counter intuitive so I had my blood tested last week... not only was my doctor all for Paleo, my blood tests results came back 'perfect' (docs words). I have more energy, no problem in restaurants (never junk food) and only occasionally miss wheat products. Give it a try.... get a blood test before as a baseline and then 3 months later...I bet you dollars to donuts (no donuts! lol) that all your levels will have improved. As my doctor said 'this is the way nature intended us to eat, and we have not evolved around wheat, sugar, grains yet. Could not recommend this more... done right Paleo is not a diet... it's a healthy lifestyle. Check out Marks Daily Apple . com....TONS of info, backed up with science. Cheers 0
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Pathmonkey wrote: »I've been Paleo for 2 months now, 20 lbs have slid off.... awesome! I'm not hungry anymore and my appetite seems to be decreasing. I was concerned in the beginning because all the fat seemed counter intuitive so I had my blood tested last week... not only was my doctor all for Paleo, my blood tests results came back 'perfect' (docs words). I have more energy, no problem in restaurants (never junk food) and only occasionally miss wheat products. Give it a try.... get a blood test before as a baseline and then 3 months later...I bet you dollars to donuts (no donuts! lol) that all your levels will have improved. As my doctor said 'this is the way nature intended us to eat, and we have not evolved around wheat, sugar, grains yet. Could not recommend this more... done right Paleo is not a diet... it's a healthy lifestyle. Check out Marks Daily Apple . com....TONS of info, backed up with science. Cheers
Thanks for this, I've been following paleo (not strictly) for 4 days now, and have to say the first 2 days I felt foggy. I've been sleeping better and feeling more energetic.
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EvgeniZyntx wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »sunnybeaches105 wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »robs_ready wrote: »lithezebra wrote: »Never mind the debatable point of whether or not paleo truly represents what all, or most, of our distant ancestors ate. A diet that consists mostly of vegetables, fruit, high quality meat and nuts is not overly restrictive and can be extremely healthy, without the kind of planning, and supplement use, that you'd need for going vegan, for example. If you eat organ meats and marrow, the diet would be even better.
What minerals are in grains that you can't get in the foods on your paleo plan?
It was more to do with milk (the mineral concern). But calcium can be acquired from other sources.
Maybe paleo is the wrong word, I just think the diet mimics what I'm trying to achieve.
You can get calcium from marrow or bone broth if you want to be strict, and also from leafy greens and nori. You can also be less strict and still have dairy. It's your diet, and being as paleolithic as possible doesn't have to be your goal.
Calcium in nori? I've eaten loads of it over the years and the packaging always lists 0 calcium.
ETA: I found some online listing as high as 2% per serving. Even at that level it's hardly a good source. Seems to me it would be better to consume dairy absent a specific allergy or other diagnosed issue with dairy. The long-term negative effects of too little calcium aren't worth the fun of a fad diet.
Eat some frickin bone marrow then. People who can't have dairy manage to get their calcium, and the real issue is how well you absorb it, so get your D.
Wrong again. Plenty of calcium in bone but very little in bone marrow. Osteoporosis isn't a joke and these diets are inviting it.
Dairy is not the best source for calcium because it is not readily absorbed from it. The majority of the world's population does just fine without milk. There are many many sources of calcium that are compatable with paleo or low carb diets. Your statements are unfounded.
http://www.dietitians.ca/Your-Health/Nutrition-A-Z/Calcium/Food-Sources-of-Calcium.aspx According to the chart, dairy is not one of the best sources for Ca.
Huh? I do not like dairy much and usually force myself to eat some and opened the link in hopes that this claim was right, but it says exactly the opposite?
Yes I typed that badly.
There are other sources of Ca, just as good if not better, and more easily absorbed than from the dairy. Ca is not much good if the calcium is not readily available/absorbed.
Do you have any links on this? My mother used to insist that calcium in dairy is by far more easily to absorb than in any other source, especially if dairy is full fat. She was a dr and was working with patients suffering from osteoporosis, so I always assumed she knew what she was talking about. But I admit I have never researched this myself.
The real issue on osteoporosis remain lifestyle - the single most important cause is sedentary life - insufficient activity and no sunlight ... well, you can eat all the sardines and soy yoghurt in the world - without active exercise the osteoclast/osteoblast bone formation and remodeling will favour absorption. The issue isn't so much what one eats (it may be) but an overall approach of eating well AND being active outdoors. And the second part is AS much if not more important.
Edit: TL;DR - osteoporosis isn't about whether you eat or not diary.
I can't remember the exact source (It was Peds or J Peds), but there was a study on teenage girls and bone density about 15 years ago. One group was very active but didn't get the recommended amount of daily calcium, the other group inactive but met or exceeded daily calcium goal. Who had denser bones at the end of the study? The active group, despite low calcium intake.0
This discussion has been closed.
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