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Is the Insulin Theory of Obesity Over?
Replies
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jquizzle10 wrote: »
Did you see that sugar film? Horrifying what high carb processed foods have done to indigenous people in Australia. It's a similar story in the United States. Rates of obesity related diseases are very high in the indigenous populations.
Do you realize those same high carb processed foods also contain a ton of fat? With the exception of candy, most processed foods have multiple nutrients. Targeting sugar when is the trend today.
The take-a-way... eat more whole nutrient dense foods and less ultra processed foods.3 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »
Also fructose.
So avoid fruit?
Should I avoid fat? "Fatty foods" (whatever the hell that means) are not necessarily "taxing" on the liver - the type of fat matters. NAFLD is strongly linked to overconsumption of carbs, especially fructose. The modest amounts found in reasonable quantities of fruit probably don't pose a problem. But the alarming amounts found in soda and other heavily processed foods is concerning. Want to be kind to your liver? Avoid alcohol, cigarettes, fructose, omega 6 fats, and trans fats. (Note I said avoid, not necessarily eliminate, through in the case of cigarettes and trans fats, eliminate is probably sound advice!)
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jquizzle10 wrote: »
Did you see that sugar film? Horrifying what high carb processed foods have done to indigenous people in Australia. It's a similar story in the United States. Rates of obesity related diseases are very high in the indigenous populations.
Do you realize those same high carb processed foods also contain a ton of fat? With the exception of candy, most processed foods have multiple nutrients. Targeting sugar when is the trend today.
The take-a-way... eat more whole nutrient dense foods and less ultra processed foods.
Are you suggesting fat consumption contributes to diabetes? I've never seen any compelling evidence to suggest this. In fact is contrary to everything I learned from biochemistry and cellular biology to human physiology. Show me some mechanistic explanation based in accepted physiology and I'll look into it.1 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
Fructose is processed by the liver, being converted to glycogen and triglycerides. What type of "fatty foods" are taxing on the liver (there are lots of different types of fats)?
Fructose is one of the best at re-feuling liver glycogen...0 -
Yet another thread of analysis paralysis...4
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tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
Fructose is processed by the liver, being converted to glycogen and triglycerides. What type of "fatty foods" are taxing on the liver (there are lots of different types of fats)?
Fructose is one of the best at re-feuling liver glycogen...
And if liver glycogen is already full?
Oh yeah, what "fatty food" are we supposed to be avoiding? Are all fats harmful to the liver? Never got an answer to that...
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tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
Fructose is processed by the liver, being converted to glycogen and triglycerides. What type of "fatty foods" are taxing on the liver (there are lots of different types of fats)?
Fructose is one of the best at re-feuling liver glycogen...
And if liver glycogen is already full?
Oh yeah, what "fatty food" are we supposed to be avoiding? Are all fats harmful to the liver? Never got an answer to that...
Well if liver glycogen is already full then you don't chug a soda. What do you want me to say? Use common sense. Fructose is fine, a boatload of fructose is probably not fine. A boatload of anything (including fat)is probably not fine.
3 -
jquizzle10 wrote: »jquizzle10 wrote: »
Did you see that sugar film? Horrifying what high carb processed foods have done to indigenous people in Australia. It's a similar story in the United States. Rates of obesity related diseases are very high in the indigenous populations.
Do you realize those same high carb processed foods also contain a ton of fat? With the exception of candy, most processed foods have multiple nutrients. Targeting sugar when is the trend today.
The take-a-way... eat more whole nutrient dense foods and less ultra processed foods.
Are you suggesting fat consumption contributes to diabetes? I've never seen any compelling evidence to suggest this. In fact is contrary to everything I learned from biochemistry and cellular biology to human physiology. Show me some mechanistic explanation based in accepted physiology and I'll look into it.
As already stated, obesity, inactivity and genetics are linked to diabetes. Macronutrients are not.3 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
Fructose is processed by the liver, being converted to glycogen and triglycerides. What type of "fatty foods" are taxing on the liver (there are lots of different types of fats)?
Fructose is one of the best at re-feuling liver glycogen...
And if liver glycogen is already full?
Oh yeah, what "fatty food" are we supposed to be avoiding? Are all fats harmful to the liver? Never got an answer to that...
Well if liver glycogen is already full then you don't chug a soda. What do you want me to say? Use common sense. Fructose is fine, a boatload of fructose is probably not fine. A boatload of anything (including fat)is probably not fine.
Considering it's probably full at surplus levels, you have bigger issue than fructose.0 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
I'm not really sure how fatty foods hurt the liver. I've never heard that one! Fatty acids can circulate freely in the blood and can be used by all over the body. Fructose cannot. No body tissue can utilize it. It can only be broken down by the liver.2 -
aqsylvester wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
I'm not really sure how fatty foods hurt the liver. I've never heard that one! Fatty acids can circulate freely in the blood and can be used by all over the body. Fructose cannot. No body tissue can utilize it. It can only be broken down by the liver.
Why does it matter where it's broken down? It still is converted to glucose. Your liver has many functions and that happens to be one of them.2 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
Fructose is processed by the liver, being converted to glycogen and triglycerides. What type of "fatty foods" are taxing on the liver (there are lots of different types of fats)?
Fructose is one of the best at re-feuling liver glycogen...
And if liver glycogen is already full?
Oh yeah, what "fatty food" are we supposed to be avoiding? Are all fats harmful to the liver? Never got an answer to that...
Well if liver glycogen is already full then you don't chug a soda. What do you want me to say? Use common sense. Fructose is fine, a boatload of fructose is probably not fine. A boatload of anything (including fat)is probably not fine.
That's fair enough. You had suggested that if people want to take care of their livers, they should avoid alcohol and cigarettes (sound advice), but then mentioned avoiding "fatty foods" (which fatty foods? French fries and cookies, or salmon and avocados? The world may never know), but never mentioned sugars, especially fructose, which is strongly linked to NAFLD, because of the way it is metabolized. Some fats are hard on the liver, especially in excess. Some sugars are hard on the liver, especially in excess. Banal generalities about avoiding either "fatty" or "sugary" foods are pretty useless.
2 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
Fructose is processed by the liver, being converted to glycogen and triglycerides. What type of "fatty foods" are taxing on the liver (there are lots of different types of fats)?
Fructose is one of the best at re-feuling liver glycogen...
And if liver glycogen is already full?
Oh yeah, what "fatty food" are we supposed to be avoiding? Are all fats harmful to the liver? Never got an answer to that...
Well if liver glycogen is already full then you don't chug a soda. What do you want me to say? Use common sense. Fructose is fine, a boatload of fructose is probably not fine. A boatload of anything (including fat)is probably not fine.
That's fair enough. You had suggested that if people want to take care of their livers, they should avoid alcohol and cigarettes (sound advice), but then mentioned avoiding "fatty foods" (which fatty foods? French fries and cookies, or salmon and avocados? The world may never know), but never mentioned sugars, especially fructose, which is strongly linked to NAFLD, because of the way it is metabolized. Some fats are hard on the liver, especially in excess. Some sugars are hard on the liver, especially in excess. Banal generalities about avoiding either "fatty" or "sugary" foods are pretty useless.
No less useless than avoiding fructose (btw, when I hear fructose, I think fruits, not HFCS or processed foods). Why? Because we must look at things in context.1 -
aqsylvester wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
I'm not really sure how fatty foods hurt the liver. I've never heard that one! Fatty acids can circulate freely in the blood and can be used by all over the body. Fructose cannot. No body tissue can utilize it. It can only be broken down by the liver.
Why does it matter where it's broken down? It still is converted to glucose. Your liver has many functions and that happens to be one of them.
Just do a simple google search, you will find plenty of information on the effects of excess fructose on the liver. Obviously the liver can only handle so much of a toxin.
The entry of fructose into the liver kicks off a series of complex chemical transformations. (You can see a diagram of these at health.harvard.edu/172.) One remarkable change is that the liver uses fructose, a carbohydrate, to create fat. This process is called lipogenesis. Give the liver enough fructose, and tiny fat droplets begin to accumulate in liver cells (see figure). This buildup is called nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, because it looks just like what happens in the livers of people who drink too much alcohol.
Virtually unknown before 1980, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease now affects up to 30% of adults in the United States and other developed countries, and between 70% and 90% of those who are obese or who have diabetes.
Early on, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is reversible. At some point, though, the liver can become inflamed. This can cause the low-grade damage known as nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (steato meaning fat and hepatitis meaning liver inflammation). If the inflammation becomes severe, it can lead to cirrhosis — an accumulation of scar tissue and the subsequent degeneration of liver function.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/abundance-of-fructose-not-good-for-the-liver-heart1 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
Fructose is processed by the liver, being converted to glycogen and triglycerides. What type of "fatty foods" are taxing on the liver (there are lots of different types of fats)?
Fructose is one of the best at re-feuling liver glycogen...
And if liver glycogen is already full?
Oh yeah, what "fatty food" are we supposed to be avoiding? Are all fats harmful to the liver? Never got an answer to that...
Well if liver glycogen is already full then you don't chug a soda. What do you want me to say? Use common sense. Fructose is fine, a boatload of fructose is probably not fine. A boatload of anything (including fat)is probably not fine.
That's fair enough. You had suggested that if people want to take care of their livers, they should avoid alcohol and cigarettes (sound advice), but then mentioned avoiding "fatty foods" (which fatty foods? French fries and cookies, or salmon and avocados? The world may never know), but never mentioned sugars, especially fructose, which is strongly linked to NAFLD, because of the way it is metabolized. Some fats are hard on the liver, especially in excess. Some sugars are hard on the liver, especially in excess. Banal generalities about avoiding either "fatty" or "sugary" foods are pretty useless.
No less useless than avoiding fructose (btw, when I hear fructose, I think fruits, not HFCS or processed foods). Why? Because we must look at things in context.
Which was kind of what I was getting at with my comment. I guess I should have said "avoid sugary foods" because fructose is a type of sugar that when consumed in excess can be bad for liver health, and "sugary foods" is just as vague as "fatty foods". But just as not all types of sugar are bad for the liver, not all types of fat are bad for the liver. And I don't see why one would advise others to avoid fatty foods (for liver health), but fail to mention sugary foods....
0 -
aqsylvester wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »ReaderGirl3 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »aqsylvester wrote: »Low fat advocates love to hearken back to that study. In fact, Hall designed it on purpose to "disprove" Gary Taubes. Taubes response, "what about hunger?"
It was an extremely controlled environment. Even if the findings were true, how could people apply it in real life? Cut your fat to 7% and eat at a deficit... nothing about that sounds normal... and the "findings" actually prove nothing except if you eat low fat at a deficit, you burn more fat than you consume--duh.
The thing that really troubles me is the data points on which they chose to fixate. They clearly could have focused on anything else, such as the restricted carb group losing more weight and with greater improvements in markers of metabolic and cardiovascular health. To me, it speaks to a blatant misrepresentation based on an agenda.
Why is it always assumed that those not following low carb diets are always hungry. Its just a bunch of non sense. If you are hungry on a low to mod fat diet, you are doing it wrong. And not everyone responds to fat the same way. Many of us dont even touch hunger with fat. I know it doesnt even remotely affect me. I am more full from a 300 calorie potato that 900+ calories of fats.
You contradicted yourself. You state that not everyone responds the same way (I agree), but then admonish those of us who felt hungry all the time on low to moderate fat diets for "doing it wrong". Which is it? And, what, pray tell, is "doing it right" in your opinion?
For the most part, when I have worked with people on their dietary requirements, when people switched to low carb diets, they came from very poor diets in general. Rarely, were they eating larges amounts of fiber, lean proteins, concentrating on unsaturated fats, etc... Essentially, the huge dietary shift, focused their attention on a much less broad amounts of foods due to limitations.
For those who wanted to stay higher carb, I worked with them to refocus their dietary preferences. Often I replaced calories from drinks, increased fiber (fruits, veggies, and higher fiber whole grains), increased lean proteins (animal and plant based) and increase unsaturated fats (especially fish). This action, then resulted in the feeling of fullness.
Overall though, satiety has scored the highest in lean proteins and fibrous veggies. This is fairly universal and I haven't seen any studies to refute these claims. Where things get mucky is fat vs non fibrous carbs. Personally, I and many others respond better to starches more so than fats. So I do recognize there is some individuality in finding a program that works for you. But if you want to come carbs vs fat, then at least make it plant-based vs keto as they are two extremes.
Another thing that one must consider is the size of ones deficit. Many, who are new to fitness want to be aggressive. But the only people who really can do that, are those who are highly disciplined and highly trained (typically seen in body builders during contest prep) or those under close supervision.
I went through a progression of eating patterns over the past 25 years. I started with what is probably your "typical" American diet - too much soda/sweetened beverages, too many processed carbs, not enough fruit or veg, lots of fast food, take out, and heavily processed foods. I made improvements over the years and ended up with a low fat, high fiber diet (strictly whole grains, lots of fruit and veggies, modest amounts of very lean meat and low fat or fat free dairy, no added sugars, very little saturated fat; no soda/sweetened beverages, predominantly home cooked, minimally processed foods). It was definitely an improvement over the way I ate in my teens and early twenties, but I was consistently hungry and could never quite make it to where I wanted to be weight-wise (was always in the "overweight" category).
After struggling (and failing) for years to get to get to a "normal" weight I decided to try a different approach - now I eat a standard LCHF diet based on fatty meat, fibrous veg, minimal fruit (and only low sugar fruit), whole dairy (as low sugar as possible), nuts and seeds, and very small amounts (and only occasionally) of grains, starchy veg, or higher sugar fruit. Obviously I still don't drink sweetened beverages, and I still eat mostly home cooked foods. Off plan foods are consumed no less often than off plan foods on my lower fat diet. Maybe more often, as without the hunger I find I have a lot more willpower and trust myself with "treats" a whole lot more.
I was finally full and satisfied and spontaneously, effortlessly managed to create a deficit significant enough to get down to the middle of the normal weight range for my height. Without calorie counting. Without going hungry. Without increasing activity. So, yeah, I feel like I was "doing it right" wrt low fat, it just didn't work for me.
Your insistence that anyone who feels hungry all the time on a low to moderate fat diet must be "doing it wrong" is just as condescending as when people who don't respond well to keto get told they must be "doing it wrong". Sometimes it's not that the person is doing the diet wrong; it's that the diet is wrong for the person.
How many calories where you eating on your other diet.. what were your protein levels and exercise? There are lots of variables.
And like mentioned, not everything is universal. And ultimately the single most important factor is dietary compliance. And i am not being condenscending by any means and would suggest you are taking that out of context. From my experience when you look into many peoples diets (not recollections but rather diaries) there are many types of issues that arise. Along with cutting calories in an aggressive manor, the types of calories tend to be the issue.
But i am glad you found what works for you.
I was consuming an average of 1800 to 1900 calories per day, but struggling to stick to that (I could do it for periods of weeks, sometimes even months, but inevitably I'd fall off plan). On low carb I found myself eating 1600-1800 without feeling hungry. I was, and remain, lightly active; I was not incorporating exercise during either the lower fat or the lower carb dieting, I only recently began incorporating exercise (about 3 months ago). My protein intake is somewhat higher now, but it was adequate then - I averaged 60-70 g per day on low fat, now I get closer to 70-80 g.
I'm sure you have run into plenty of people who had the diet that I had in my teens and twenties. And certainly I benefitted from the type of advice you would have given me. At first. To a point. But I couldn't get below 160-165lbs. I was already hungry at the level of calories I was eating, I couldn't see cutting anymore.
Something awesome happens when you get to be in your mid-thirties (at least for me!). You know yourself better and aren't so quick to throw yourself under the bus. In my youth, I blamed myself whenever I regained weight, or struggled to stay on plan, or couldn't achieve my goals. I had resigned myself to being 165 lbs and size 12/14, at best. I told myself it's just the way I was built. Or that I just wasn't disciplined enough to be successful. After my third pregnancy, facing the prospect of having to lose weight again (was 185 at that point) and struggling to do so, it finally dawned on me - I'm not undisciplined, weak-willed, or lacking self control in any other aspect of my life. Why was I doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result? Fortunately this was in 2013 and paleo, primal, gluten/grain free, and LCHF diets were pretty popular at that time and when I googled "what if I'm doing everything right and still not losing weight" I actually came upon these types of diets. I read up on them first, made a plan for myself that I thought would work with my life and for my goals. I committed to it for six weeks (figured I could put up with anything for six weeks).
At the end of six weeks I'd lost a modest 12 lbs (about 5 of which was water). But that wasn't the most exciting part, not by a long shot. I wasn't hungry anymore. No more snacking, no more blowing my calories at the end of the day because I couldn't take the prospect of going to bed hungry again, no more watching the clock to see when I could eat again. My energy improved - not more energy, exactly, but more steady energy levels throughout the day. No more hypoglycemic episodes, even if I skipped a snack or a meal was delayed. My eczema (chronic, moderate to severe, that I'd suffered with for seven years) disappeared. After that six week trial run, I knew that even if I never lost another single lb, I would be eating LCHF for life. In seven months I dropped from 185 to 140, the lowest weight I'd been since I was 16 years old.
Anyway, tldr - your insistence that people who are hungry on low to moderate fat diets must be doing it wrong rubbed me the wrong way because that's what I told myself at the time - that I was doing something wrong, that I wasn't strong enough, that I wasn't good enough, that "if only" I had more discipline, more willpower, more self control, that it would work. That's the message we tell people who struggle to lose weight, isn't it? Once I realized that maybe it wasn't about my character, maybe the advice I was given wasn't appropriate for me, only then did I find something that worked. The notion that failure to adhere to a low fat diet was a character flaw or a sign that I was doing something wrong, is what kept me spinning my wheels for a decade.
It's so interesting how we're all different/interact with food differently-our stories are similar, up to the point where we went down different paths for weight loss. I was also in my 30s, also had 3 pregnancies (22 months a part from the next), and also in the 180 range. However, I ended up going the IF route (oddly enough found out about on a low carb site), and lost around 50lbs only focusing on my IF rotations/cutting back on calories. I didn't experience hunger issues-even on my very low IF days (where I was consuming under 500 calories). Fast forward a bit and I'm now 3 years into maintenance, having lost around 50lbs. I'm now almost 38 years old, my maintenance range is the 120s and I'm in excellent health by every health marker my doctor goes by. I still continue to eat just about everything and still only focus on staying with my calorie goals.
I'm glad you found what works for you, best of luck to both of us as we face 40 or 50 years of maintenance yet
Exactly, IF is excellent at lowering insulin levels and increasing insulin sensitivity. It works to the same end as low carb or whole foods or even low calories.
Or even exercise...
Yep. Exercise is actually a factor in both insulin sensitivity AND leptin sensitivity, from what I've read, which may explain why many people (not everyone) find that including exercise in a maintenance plan is important.
Exercise improves insulin resistance in the skeletal muscles, but not the liver. Healing it there requires some fasting and dietary changes.
The best way to support the liver is to avoid consuming things that make it work overtime in the first place. Fatty foods, alcohol and cigarettes are a good place to start...
Also fructose.
Disagree...
I'm not really sure how fatty foods hurt the liver. I've never heard that one! Fatty acids can circulate freely in the blood and can be used by all over the body. Fructose cannot. No body tissue can utilize it. It can only be broken down by the liver.
Why does it matter where it's broken down? It still is converted to glucose. Your liver has many functions and that happens to be one of them.
EXACTLY!
UGH I can't take this anymore. The ability to use common sense has left the building.6 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »
Which was kind of what I was getting at with my comment. I guess I should have said "avoid sugary foods" because fructose is a type of sugar that when consumed in excess can be bad for liver health, and "sugary foods" is just as vague as "fatty foods". But just as not all types of sugar are bad for the liver, not all types of fat are bad for the liver. And I don't see why one would advise others to avoid fatty foods (for liver health), but fail to mention sugary foods....
Pretty much anything is excess is not good. Which is why I am baffled at the comments over the past few pages. We are over complicating this.
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aqsylvester wrote: »
Just do a simple google search, you will find plenty of information on the effects of excess fructose on the liver. Obviously the liver can only handle so much of a toxin.
The entry of fructose into the liver kicks off a series of complex chemical transformations. (You can see a diagram of these at health.harvard.edu/172.) One remarkable change is that the liver uses fructose, a carbohydrate, to create fat. This process is called lipogenesis. Give the liver enough fructose, and tiny fat droplets begin to accumulate in liver cells (see figure). This buildup is called nonalcoholic fatty liver disease, because it looks just like what happens in the livers of people who drink too much alcohol.
Virtually unknown before 1980, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease now affects up to 30% of adults in the United States and other developed countries, and between 70% and 90% of those who are obese or who have diabetes.
Early on, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease is reversible. At some point, though, the liver can become inflamed. This can cause the low-grade damage known as nonalcoholic steatohepatitis (steato meaning fat and hepatitis meaning liver inflammation). If the inflammation becomes severe, it can lead to cirrhosis — an accumulation of scar tissue and the subsequent degeneration of liver function.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/abundance-of-fructose-not-good-for-the-liver-heart
And if you read the whole thing: Still, it’s worth cutting back on fructose. But don’t do it by giving up fruit. Fruit is good for you and is a minor source of fructose for most people. The big sources are refined sugar and high-fructose corn syrup
Essentially, give us junk food. Not mind blowing researching.
This also takes into consideration the average person, which in America is eating too little fruit, too much soda and is not active at all.2 -
Fructose is converted to glucose and triglycerides. Overconsumption is linked to NAFLD. There has been a large increase in NAFLD in recent years, especially among children (it used to be something rarely seen outside old age). Perhaps the largest source of fructose in the American diet is not fruit, but soda and other sweetened beverages. So advising people to help their liver by avoiding "fatty foods" is not exactly common sense. Soda is now, and has always been, a fat free food.1
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tlflag1620 wrote: »Fructose is converted to glucose and triglycerides. Overconsumption is linked to NAFLD. There has been a large increase in NAFLD in recent years, especially among children (it used to be something rarely seen outside old age). Perhaps the largest source of fructose in the American diet is not fruit, but soda and other sweetened beverages. So advising people to help their liver by avoiding "fatty foods" is not exactly common sense. Soda is now, and has always been, a fat free food.
There are more diseases that just NAFLD. Only being concerned with one, but not others is a bit short sighted, IMO. High calorie, low nutrient foods, can contribute to weight gain, which can lead to diabetes, cvd, IR, and so much more.5
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