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How much will one pay/risk for weight loss?

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  • SugarbeatSugarbeat Posts: 825Member Member Posts: 825Member Member
    Just throwing this out there but sometimes even when a person makes the effort to educate themselves they can get confused. There is a lot of information out there and even when a person consults the "experts" (i.e. nutritionists, etc) they can get conflicting information. I'm not making excuses for people, they are absolutely responsible for their own eating habits. I know, for myself, when I consulted the nutritionist employed by the same teaching hospital where I work, I was given a rather high carb diet to help treat my diabetes. When I told the PA at my last blood work checkup (which was perfect) that I had cut out most high carbs, with a few veggie exceptions, she handed me a "diet tip sheet" full of things like pasta, rice, and white potatoes. Nothing against those foods and I'm not trying to start another carb debate (please don't, seriously). I'm just trying to use my own experience to show how even someone who wants to be educated can be confused when it comes to the healthy part of things.
  • ald783ald783 Posts: 707Member Member Posts: 707Member Member
    People seem to be especially desperate and willing to ignore common sense when it comes to weight loss more than most other things. I don't think most people would behave as stupidly or take as many risks to change other areas of their lives, but weight loss and weight obsession seems to do strange things to a lot of people.

    That's not really a helpful answer, just something that's hard to ignore.
  • stealthqstealthq Posts: 4,307Member Member Posts: 4,307Member Member
    Sugarbeat wrote: »
    Just throwing this out there but sometimes even when a person makes the effort to educate themselves they can get confused. There is a lot of information out there and even when a person consults the "experts" (i.e. nutritionists, etc) they can get conflicting information. I'm not making excuses for people, they are absolutely responsible for their own eating habits. I know, for myself, when I consulted the nutritionist employed by the same teaching hospital where I work, I was given a rather high carb diet to help treat my diabetes. When I told the PA at my last blood work checkup (which was perfect) that I had cut out most high carbs, with a few veggie exceptions, she handed me a "diet tip sheet" full of things like pasta, rice, and white potatoes. Nothing against those foods and I'm not trying to start another carb debate (please don't, seriously). I'm just trying to use my own experience to show how even someone who wants to be educated can be confused when it comes to the healthy part of things.

    Yes, I know. Family member got the same song and dance from a specialist for his medical issues.

    Unfortunately, for those issues he really needs to cut down on potassium. The easiest way to do that, since potassium is in just about everything is to avoid a handful of non-meat, high-potassium items and to moderate meat. Those recommendations caused him to do the opposite (avoid carbs, increase meat). It took a good deal of convincing and a trip to a dietician before he'd believe that he really could have carbs and lose just the same.
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    I think part of the issue is the desperation caused by all of the fear mongering for obese individuals. In almost every weightloss show, they always have a point in which someone is crying because someone tells them that they are going to die and leave their children to fend for themselves. I'm not saying it is inaccurate, but this type of motivation is designed to bring about a level of desperation. So it should come of no surprise that if you convince me that my life is in danger because of my weight that I would be willing to take on a higher level of risk to reduce my weight as fast as possible, out of desparation.

    Take Jarod the subway molester guy, he was 425 pounds. He assessed his situation, did research tried a few things and ended up with a diet that would be widely panned here. Is it unsafe for most people? Yeah, probably, but from his perspective, it was not as unsafe as remaining obese. He took a risk against conventional opinion and was successful.

    That leads to another factor. When people like Jarod have success, others want to emulate it. The problem that comes into play is that some might not realize certain factors that gave Jarod advantages that others may not have: things like his age (22), his height, his ability to do physical activity, the fact that he had sufficient fat to maintain a deficit for so long, taking a daily multi-vitamin, etc. All they remember is that the guy had two subs a day and lost a lot of weight, 245lbs in 11 months. That's an average of over 5lbs a week. Therefore, to the average dieter, they see virtual proof that it is possible. They just aren't considering all of the parameters that are affecting their own situation.

    ETA: I'm not necessarily trying say that fear mongering shouldn't happen for obese individuals, but that the actions born out of the desperation it creates are unfortunate byproducts that affect society at large.
    edited March 2016
  • DearestWinterDearestWinter Posts: 595Member Member Posts: 595Member Member
    Sugarbeat wrote: »
    Just throwing this out there but sometimes even when a person makes the effort to educate themselves they can get confused. There is a lot of information out there and even when a person consults the "experts" (i.e. nutritionists, etc) they can get conflicting information. I'm not making excuses for people, they are absolutely responsible for their own eating habits. I know, for myself, when I consulted the nutritionist employed by the same teaching hospital where I work, I was given a rather high carb diet to help treat my diabetes. When I told the PA at my last blood work checkup (which was perfect) that I had cut out most high carbs, with a few veggie exceptions, she handed me a "diet tip sheet" full of things like pasta, rice, and white potatoes. Nothing against those foods and I'm not trying to start another carb debate (please don't, seriously). I'm just trying to use my own experience to show how even someone who wants to be educated can be confused when it comes to the healthy part of things.

    I agree with this. There is a huge amount of information that gets tossed around and it's tough to filter, particularly since many sources that talk about health/fitness are just trying to shill their products. Even professionals and intelligent people get tricked by them.
  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    Sugarbeat wrote: »
    Just throwing this out there but sometimes even when a person makes the effort to educate themselves they can get confused. There is a lot of information out there and even when a person consults the "experts" (i.e. nutritionists, etc) they can get conflicting information. I'm not making excuses for people, they are absolutely responsible for their own eating habits. I know, for myself, when I consulted the nutritionist employed by the same teaching hospital where I work, I was given a rather high carb diet to help treat my diabetes. When I told the PA at my last blood work checkup (which was perfect) that I had cut out most high carbs, with a few veggie exceptions, she handed me a "diet tip sheet" full of things like pasta, rice, and white potatoes. Nothing against those foods and I'm not trying to start another carb debate (please don't, seriously). I'm just trying to use my own experience to show how even someone who wants to be educated can be confused when it comes to the healthy part of things.

    I agree with this. There is a huge amount of information that gets tossed around and it's tough to filter, particularly since many sources that talk about health/fitness are just trying to shill their products. Even professionals and intelligent people get tricked by them.

    I think this is why a lot of us talk about majoring in the minors, however.

    I don't think there's much difficulty understanding certain basic things: eat less and move more will be helpful for weight loss; if calories in are less than calories out, you will lose weight. Same with nutrition, really -- on the main things there's more agreement than not (at least if you stick to the reputable sorts).

    The problem is that people think there's some trick that will enable them to lose much faster, some secret gnosis of weight loss, and trying to find that gets them (often) hung up on the details and feeling like no one agrees and they don't know what to do, often jumping from diet to diet or worrying about whether they can eat after 6 or have to eat within 10 minutes of getting up or working out or somehow it won't work. IMO, that stuff (are some things slightly more advantageous on average than others) can be academically interesting, but probably aren't helpful to the average dieter, especially someone frustrated and confused.

    What I think helps is having an understanding of the basics and then deciding for yourself how best to achieve a calorie deficit. And there there's no one-size-fits-all program -- there are lots of ways to do it that are going to depend on individual personality, so it really has to be a personal decision based on understanding the basics.
  • KETOGENICGURLKETOGENICGURL Posts: 691Member Member Posts: 691Member Member
    Keep in mind the US Gov got involved in setting a standard for what to eat…based on one man's ideas ( Dr. Ancel Keys) and in the 70's offered us the Food Pyramid.. NO human studies of any kind where done to show that 45-65% carbs/gains were ideal. And most eat far over protein needs because it is cheap and available.

    You didn't see fat teachers or students in the 50s, -60s because people ate real food, at home.

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/problem-with-calorie-counting-calories-in

    Fast forward to now and we have 70%+ overweight or obese, 600% rise in diabetes in last 25 years. Toddlers are obese needing heart surgery ..they don't diet & exercise, so what they are fed makes them obese.

    Yes the dietitian is ONLY trained to teach you to eat to the USDA guidelines, even if she he wanted to advise another ratio of fats/protein/carbs they can't, not allowed.

    So if you are age <30 and fairly healthy you may be able to eat to the "healthy plate" design and lose weight, but if you don't, they will just tell you to keep cutting calories and/or moving more. which permanently lowers metabolism forcing you to stay low calorie for life or regain, as most do.

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/the-biggest-loser-diet/biggestloser4/

    As we know most of us do NOT eat from fresh foods made at home..we have unlimited access to fast processed packaged foods..none of them are on that plate design, but are what many choose.

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/problem-with-calorie-counting-calories-out
  • senecarrsenecarr Posts: 5,377Member Member Posts: 5,377Member Member
    Keep in mind the US Gov got involved in setting a standard for what to eat…based on one man's ideas ( Dr. Ancel Keys) and in the 70's offered us the Food Pyramid.. NO human studies of any kind where done to show that 45-65% carbs/gains were ideal. And most eat far over protein needs because it is cheap and available.

    You didn't see fat teachers or students in the 50s, -60s because people ate real food, at home.

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/problem-with-calorie-counting-calories-in

    Fast forward to now and we have 70%+ overweight or obese, 600% rise in diabetes in last 25 years. Toddlers are obese needing heart surgery ..they don't diet & exercise, so what they are fed makes them obese.

    Yes the dietitian is ONLY trained to teach you to eat to the USDA guidelines, even if she he wanted to advise another ratio of fats/protein/carbs they can't, not allowed.

    So if you are age <30 and fairly healthy you may be able to eat to the "healthy plate" design and lose weight, but if you don't, they will just tell you to keep cutting calories and/or moving more. which permanently lowers metabolism forcing you to stay low calorie for life or regain, as most do.

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/the-biggest-loser-diet/biggestloser4/

    As we know most of us do NOT eat from fresh foods made at home..we have unlimited access to fast processed packaged foods..none of them are on that plate design, but are what many choose.

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/problem-with-calorie-counting-calories-out

    The idea that cutting calories permanently lowers metabolism is highly contentious - at least beyond the idea that a person with less mass is going to burn fewer calories than a heavier person because, hey less mass. I'm actually waiting on a literature review by Menno Henselmans that shows that once composition changes, including organ tissue mass changes, are accounted for, there is no permanent changes in metabolism.
  • ninerbuffninerbuff Posts: 42,523Member, Greeter Member Posts: 42,523Member, Greeter Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    I think part of the issue is the desperation caused by all of the fear mongering for obese individuals. In almost every weightloss show, they always have a point in which someone is crying because someone tells them that they are going to die and leave their children to fend for themselves. I'm not saying it is inaccurate, but this type of motivation is designed to bring about a level of desperation. So it should come of no surprise that if you convince me that my life is in danger because of my weight that I would be willing to take on a higher level of risk to reduce my weight as fast as possible, out of desparation.

    Take Jarod the subway molester guy, he was 425 pounds. He assessed his situation, did research tried a few things and ended up with a diet that would be widely panned here. Is it unsafe for most people? Yeah, probably, but from his perspective, it was not as unsafe as remaining obese. He took a risk against conventional opinion and was successful.

    That leads to another factor. When people like Jarod have success, others want to emulate it. The problem that comes into play is that some might not realize certain factors that gave Jarod advantages that others may not have: things like his age (22), his height, his ability to do physical activity, the fact that he had sufficient fat to maintain a deficit for so long, taking a daily multi-vitamin, etc. All they remember is that the guy had two subs a day and lost a lot of weight, 245lbs in 11 months. That's an average of over 5lbs a week. Therefore, to the average dieter, they see virtual proof that it is possible. They just aren't considering all of the parameters that are affecting their own situation.

    ETA: I'm not necessarily trying say that fear mongering shouldn't happen for obese individuals, but that the actions born out of the desperation it creates are unfortunate byproducts that affect society at large.
    Agree here. One of the documentaries that employs a diet that's likely not going to be sustainable is the juicing diet of Joe Cross from "Fat, sick and nearly dead". People will look at this, then try to emulate what he did without consulting medical professional or RD to see if it's something they SHOULD even attempt.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png
  • ninerbuffninerbuff Posts: 42,523Member, Greeter Member Posts: 42,523Member, Greeter Member
    Keep in mind the US Gov got involved in setting a standard for what to eat…based on one man's ideas ( Dr. Ancel Keys) and in the 70's offered us the Food Pyramid.. NO human studies of any kind where done to show that 45-65% carbs/gains were ideal. And most eat far over protein needs because it is cheap and available.

    You didn't see fat teachers or students in the 50s, -60s because people ate real food, at home.

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/problem-with-calorie-counting-calories-in

    Fast forward to now and we have 70%+ overweight or obese, 600% rise in diabetes in last 25 years. Toddlers are obese needing heart surgery ..they don't diet & exercise, so what they are fed makes them obese.

    Yes the dietitian is ONLY trained to teach you to eat to the USDA guidelines, even if she he wanted to advise another ratio of fats/protein/carbs they can't, not allowed.

    So if you are age <30 and fairly healthy you may be able to eat to the "healthy plate" design and lose weight, but if you don't, they will just tell you to keep cutting calories and/or moving more. which permanently lowers metabolism forcing you to stay low calorie for life or regain, as most do.

    https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/the-biggest-loser-diet/biggestloser4/

    As we know most of us do NOT eat from fresh foods made at home..we have unlimited access to fast processed packaged foods..none of them are on that plate design, but are what many choose.

    http://www.precisionnutrition.com/problem-with-calorie-counting-calories-out
    Well that's debatable because the South East states has the highest obesity rates versus most of the others and they pride themselves on their "home cooking". Problem is a lot of it is very high calorie and lots of stuff is fried.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png

  • lemurcat12lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886Member Member Posts: 30,886Member Member
    We never actually lowered our consumption of fat when the gov't was promoting that we reduce fat. We did increase our consumption of low nutrient carb-based foods even faster than carb-fat balanced foods and fat-based foods, but that's likely about availability, not the gov't (as people seem to ignore that stuff very easily if you look at the consumption of fruits and veg, whole grains, etc., anyway). The consumption of lower nutrient fats and mixed carb-fat also probably went up as a total of the whole (see, e.g., Salt, Fat, Sugar, or whatever the order is).
  • tomtebodatomteboda Posts: 2,176Member Member Posts: 2,176Member Member
    senecarr wrote: »
    The idea that cutting calories permanently lowers metabolism is highly contentious - at least beyond the idea that a person with less mass is going to burn fewer calories than a heavier person because, hey less mass. I'm actually waiting on a literature review by Menno Henselmans that shows that once composition changes, including organ tissue mass changes, are accounted for, there is no permanent changes in metabolism.

    I fail at reading comprehension tonight. I thought you were WRITING this.'

    But yes, that would be interesting to read. What journal is it in?

    edited March 2016
  • moe0303moe0303 Posts: 933Member Member Posts: 933Member Member
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    I think part of the issue is the desperation caused by all of the fear mongering for obese individuals. In almost every weightloss show, they always have a point in which someone is crying because someone tells them that they are going to die and leave their children to fend for themselves. I'm not saying it is inaccurate, but this type of motivation is designed to bring about a level of desperation. So it should come of no surprise that if you convince me that my life is in danger because of my weight that I would be willing to take on a higher level of risk to reduce my weight as fast as possible, out of desparation.

    Take Jarod the subway molester guy, he was 425 pounds. He assessed his situation, did research tried a few things and ended up with a diet that would be widely panned here. Is it unsafe for most people? Yeah, probably, but from his perspective, it was not as unsafe as remaining obese. He took a risk against conventional opinion and was successful.

    That leads to another factor. When people like Jarod have success, others want to emulate it. The problem that comes into play is that some might not realize certain factors that gave Jarod advantages that others may not have: things like his age (22), his height, his ability to do physical activity, the fact that he had sufficient fat to maintain a deficit for so long, taking a daily multi-vitamin, etc. All they remember is that the guy had two subs a day and lost a lot of weight, 245lbs in 11 months. That's an average of over 5lbs a week. Therefore, to the average dieter, they see virtual proof that it is possible. They just aren't considering all of the parameters that are affecting their own situation.

    ETA: I'm not necessarily trying say that fear mongering shouldn't happen for obese individuals, but that the actions born out of the desperation it creates are unfortunate byproducts that affect society at large.
    Agree here. One of the documentaries that employs a diet that's likely not going to be sustainable is the juicing diet of Joe Cross from "Fat, sick and nearly dead". People will look at this, then try to emulate what he did without consulting medical professional or RD to see if it's something they SHOULD even attempt.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png
    The flip side of the coin. I think this indicates another issue at play:

    The general mistrust of the medical profession as it relates to weight loss.

    People in the medical field tend to practice risk avoidance instead of risk mitigation. If I found myself in a similar situation as Jarod did, meaning having similar factors to him in terms of age, ability, etc., and went to a doctor or dietician and told them I wanted to do what he did, I can almost guarantee that I would be denied without assessment in most cases. All they seem to know is that 1200 calories is the minimum and that anything else is crazy. Very few are familiar with the risks and more importantly the methods in which they can be mitigated. From the potential dieter's viewpoint, they know that they will not be endorsed regardless of their ability. So why bother? Jarod did it, so can I.
  • SugarbeatSugarbeat Posts: 825Member Member Posts: 825Member Member
    I'm one that doesn't completely trust those in the medical field. I've been at this awhile and the only thing I get from "them" is the same spiel that only proves they've read the manual. If I ask for examples or advise on how to follow their plans I'm given sort of a blank smile and the subject changes. I have a particular medical reason for needing their advise and they come up short every time, proving they have no real idea what they're doing. Crazy diet plans aside, we're forever hearing the "experts" tell us to eat this or don't eat that (eggs for example, fat is another) and after years of trying to cut those foods out we're told "oops, sorry about that, eggs are fine after all." I can't tell you the number of times I've heard people say "Heck, if "they" don't know how I should eat, why should I listen to what they say? They'll only change it in a few months."
  • ninerbuffninerbuff Posts: 42,523Member, Greeter Member Posts: 42,523Member, Greeter Member
    moe0303 wrote: »
    ninerbuff wrote: »
    moe0303 wrote: »
    I think part of the issue is the desperation caused by all of the fear mongering for obese individuals. In almost every weightloss show, they always have a point in which someone is crying because someone tells them that they are going to die and leave their children to fend for themselves. I'm not saying it is inaccurate, but this type of motivation is designed to bring about a level of desperation. So it should come of no surprise that if you convince me that my life is in danger because of my weight that I would be willing to take on a higher level of risk to reduce my weight as fast as possible, out of desparation.

    Take Jarod the subway molester guy, he was 425 pounds. He assessed his situation, did research tried a few things and ended up with a diet that would be widely panned here. Is it unsafe for most people? Yeah, probably, but from his perspective, it was not as unsafe as remaining obese. He took a risk against conventional opinion and was successful.

    That leads to another factor. When people like Jarod have success, others want to emulate it. The problem that comes into play is that some might not realize certain factors that gave Jarod advantages that others may not have: things like his age (22), his height, his ability to do physical activity, the fact that he had sufficient fat to maintain a deficit for so long, taking a daily multi-vitamin, etc. All they remember is that the guy had two subs a day and lost a lot of weight, 245lbs in 11 months. That's an average of over 5lbs a week. Therefore, to the average dieter, they see virtual proof that it is possible. They just aren't considering all of the parameters that are affecting their own situation.

    ETA: I'm not necessarily trying say that fear mongering shouldn't happen for obese individuals, but that the actions born out of the desperation it creates are unfortunate byproducts that affect society at large.
    Agree here. One of the documentaries that employs a diet that's likely not going to be sustainable is the juicing diet of Joe Cross from "Fat, sick and nearly dead". People will look at this, then try to emulate what he did without consulting medical professional or RD to see if it's something they SHOULD even attempt.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png
    The flip side of the coin. I think this indicates another issue at play:

    The general mistrust of the medical profession as it relates to weight loss.

    People in the medical field tend to practice risk avoidance instead of risk mitigation. If I found myself in a similar situation as Jarod did, meaning having similar factors to him in terms of age, ability, etc., and went to a doctor or dietician and told them I wanted to do what he did, I can almost guarantee that I would be denied without assessment in most cases. All they seem to know is that 1200 calories is the minimum and that anything else is crazy. Very few are familiar with the risks and more importantly the methods in which they can be mitigated. From the potential dieter's viewpoint, they know that they will not be endorsed regardless of their ability. So why bother? Jarod did it, so can I.
    I'll agree here. Unfortunately most medical professionals will have about 20 hours total in all when it comes to nutritional study when they are in college.
    But there should be common sense to actually get some feedback from professionals if one is going to try a diet that seems well off what a standard diet with balanced macronutrients is.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition

    9285851.png
  • beautifulwarrior18beautifulwarrior18 Posts: 1,021Member, Premium Member Posts: 1,021Member, Premium Member
    If it was easy everyone would do it.
  • Need2Exerc1seNeed2Exerc1se Posts: 13,589Member Member Posts: 13,589Member Member
    I might jump off a 10 ft platform if I was guaranteed to lose all the weight I want to lose. 10 ft isn't that high.

    But then losing 5 lbs in a week isn't dangerous either. I've lost 5 lbs in a week many times, whether dieting or not.
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