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I Don't Believe in Calorie Counting
Replies
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It looks like I am coming late to this debate. I would like to comment about the response that science doesn't lie with regards to this post. The truth is we don't have a lot of factual based science regarding how a calorie really works, how it feeds the cells etc. Most of the information out there is what has been deduced but not seriously studied in a lab. There are two doctors, sorry can't remember their names, that were gaining large amounts of weight on the government food pyramid. An aside, the grain lobby got their hands up in government, follow the money, and changed the food pyramid. This is when we started really getting fatter as a society. Back to the doctors, they both started paleo, and of course lost all their weight. They are now embarking on scientific study to truly understand how food is used as energy etc. Are all calories the same or not? What feeds what cell in our body etc. Of course, when trying to lose weight I agree you can't just eat 5,000 calories and expect to shed the pounds. Our limited understanding at this point leads us to counting calories because we don't know enough. There is also a lot of speculation regarding bacterias found in the stomach. There was a study with fat and thin mice. They found that the thin mice had a bacteria the fat mice were lacking. When they added that bacteria to the fat mice, they lost weight. For me, the biggest issue is the small conversation we have in this country regarding size. I believe our country has a food disorder and there is absolutely a prejudice and misunderstanding when it comes to fat. I do believe, we are going to find out it is much more complicated, our systems anyway, than just calories in calories out. Science is behind in factual data regarding the fat conversation. Just wanted to add my two cents. There is a lot going on in this field now and I find it really interesting.
Yes, there is a lot for scientists to explore. But regarding your two doctors, what were their calorie intakes when they were gaining weight? What about when they switched to paleo? Unless it can be proved that caloric intakes remained the same, their n=2 anecdote is pointless.
Also, let's say for the sake of argument that it really is much more complicated than CICO. Our bodies are quite complex, after all! So let's take the example of a random food, say a carrot, which has been accurately proven to have, say, 50 kcals worth of energy. If you eat that, the MAXIMUM amount of calories that your body will receive is... wait for it... 50! It doesn't matter how the body processes the nutrients in the carrot; it will not be able to extract more than 50 kcal of energy because there simply is not more. However, it could possibly extract less due to inefficiency, in which case if you counted the 50 kcals in your food journal, you would have a deficit that you didn't know about!
The US does not have a nation-wide food disorder. What it has is a serious lack of nutrition education and how it applies on a personal level.
PS: Who in the world actually decides what to eat based on the US government's food pyramid?2 -
It's not a U.S. problem. We have obesity in the UK. Look at Guam too. There's nothing specific to the U.S. that doesn't apply to many other countries. Ignorance. Access to delicious food. Lack of exercise. Most of us live in a time of plenty, historically speaking. Plentiful food. Plentiful spare time.4
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Here's the things I learned after having an Italian best friend living next door, from the age of 6 months to 16 years old (in the UK), and then living with an Italian family, in Italy (working as an au pair), for 8 months when I was 18 years old:MissusMoon wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »There you're wrong. The deserts here in Italy are incredible. They do give you a much smaller portion, but the sugar is there just the same. Chocolates and gelato are also fabulous. The Italians know how to eat well and don't deny themselves anything. Here, there is no talk of grain or sugar lobbies. Everyone just eats smaller portions, and walks alot.
Word. Anyone who has strolled own a street in Italy has seen the bakeries. I can't even think about them without drooling. It's such a ridiculous assertion that they have "better" wheat and don't do sweets.
Sweet treats (i.e. pastries and gelato) are not really part of an Italian meal - they are frequently eaten entirely separately to the normal meals during the day - often in the late afternoon ('La Passeggiata'), where the family would take a long-ish stroll around the fashionable parts of the town/city, meeting friends, chatting, doing a little window shopping, and occasionally having a small tub of gelato, or a pastry.
The fact that Italians eat pasta basically everyday is almost incidental to the fact that the pasta course is a starter/appetiser, and so is appropriately sized. Most of the time, my main meals with the Italian families I knew ended with fruit, or nothing at all - in fact the main meal of the day would frequently be lunch (occasionally antipasti to start, then primo, secondo, followed by fruit with perhaps a cheese course). Evening meals would consequently be lighter - often just soup, a salad, cold meats, with fruit afterwards. Dessert was absolutely an occasional treat - usually weekends, and almost always followed with a walk to aid digestion (and counter the amount eaten). I know for sure that my sugar consumption was pretty damn low during my time in Italy, mostly because they simply don't have the sheer quantity of sugary, pre-prepared snacks that are found in the UK and US. By the way, gelato is made with mostly milk (not just cream, as per most usual ice creams), and I've found gelato usually contains far less sugar than the alternatives (even sorbet). It just tastes creamier because of the way it's made!
It's not that the Italians don't 'do' sweets, they just treat them in a very different way to the average Brit or American. They certainly don't deny themselves great food (heaven forbid!), but everything they eat generally is in much smaller quantities. "A little of what you fancy" could be the Italian food motto!3 -
I am just pointing out we don't have the scientific understanding of the biochemistry of the physical body. There are several books out now discussing this exact topic. I am not sure why people feel the need to defend calorie counting. Yes, calorie counting can work but it is a very small sliver of the equation. Up until now,it is the best we have if wanting to lose weight. Our wheat has been drastically changed due to GMO'S there really isn't any denying it. I really wasn't interested in getting into a big disagreement with anyone. I was just sharing the information I have been studying over the past year. I find it very fascinating but not everyone will. Here are some articles if interested:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-gut-bacteria-help-make-us-fat-and-thin/
There are several books out as well.0 -
I wouldn't be that confident about Italy. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx0
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I am just pointing out we don't have the scientific understanding of the biochemistry of the physical body. There are several books out now discussing this exact topic. I am not sure why people feel the need to defend calorie counting. Yes, calorie counting can work but it is a very small sliver of the equation. Up until now,it is the best we have if wanting to lose weight. Our wheat has been drastically changed due to GMO'S there really isn't any denying it. I really wasn't interested in getting into a big disagreement with anyone. I was just sharing the information I have been studying over the past year. I find it very fascinating but not everyone will. Here are some articles if interested:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-gut-bacteria-help-make-us-fat-and-thin/
There are several books out as well.
You haven't answered the questions posited by the counters: why does any of this matter if manipulating the calories consumed has the desired effect on weight? Sounds a lot more palatable than any got dang bacteria transplant to me. Ew.
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Mother Nature has been genetically modifying our food since the dawn of time. GMO's do not make us fat, sorry they just don't...3
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paulgads82 wrote: »I wouldn't be that confident about Italy. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx
Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.0 -
snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »I wouldn't be that confident about Italy. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx
Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.
Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.1 -
JustMissTracy wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »
I don't count calories. Using these 2 items has worked out well for me. As of now they are telling me that I need to gain 4 pounds. I would imagine others can use these tools to see if they are overeating as well.....GaleHawkins wrote: »If one does not count how are they going to learn if they are over eating or not
That's a pretty time delayed method to find out if you're overeating. And one could argue that the time it takes you to measure and weigh yourself is no shorter than the time it takes to weigh your food.
How so? It hasn't been "delayed" for me at all. It only takes 2 minutes of my time once a week to weigh in and take measurements. I'll bet it takes a lot longer than that to weigh food and log it everyday. I'm not saying anything in favor of or against calorie counting. However, I don't think it's necessarily the only method to see whether or not you're gaining weight, and it certainly isn't necessary for everyone.
You'd lose the bet. It takes me about 1 minute while prepping to weigh my foods. Also takes less than a minute to log, as my food choices are all saved already because they don't change month to month, just a matter of inputting today's numbers. The problem with the scale and tape is you don't know you're overeating until it's time to fix it again....
This is all well and good for someone that enjoys eating the same foods over and over. But not everyone is like that. I don't log because it was extremely time consuming for me. I don't use recipes so even common meals vary a little each time I prepare them. We have a vast variety of dishes we eat and it's quite common to just make up a new dish on the fly. We enjoy creating new meals. I didn't count or log and I still lost weight. I can tell when I overeat.1 -
dizzieblondeuk wrote: »
Here's the things I learned after having an Italian best friend living next door, from the age of 6 months to 16 years old (in the UK), and then living with an Italian family, in Italy (working as an au pair), for 8 months when I was 18 years old:MissusMoon wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »There you're wrong. The deserts here in Italy are incredible. They do give you a much smaller portion, but the sugar is there just the same. Chocolates and gelato are also fabulous. The Italians know how to eat well and don't deny themselves anything. Here, there is no talk of grain or sugar lobbies. Everyone just eats smaller portions, and walks alot.
Word. Anyone who has strolled own a street in Italy has seen the bakeries. I can't even think about them without drooling. It's such a ridiculous assertion that they have "better" wheat and don't do sweets.
Sweet treats (i.e. pastries and gelato) are not really part of an Italian meal - they are frequently eaten entirely separately to the normal meals during the day - often in the late afternoon ('La Passeggiata'), where the family would take a long-ish stroll around the fashionable parts of the town/city, meeting friends, chatting, doing a little window shopping, and occasionally having a small tub of gelato, or a pastry.
The fact that Italians eat pasta basically everyday is almost incidental to the fact that the pasta course is a starter/appetiser, and so is appropriately sized. Most of the time, my main meals with the Italian families I knew ended with fruit, or nothing at all - in fact the main meal of the day would frequently be lunch (occasionally antipasti to start, then primo, secondo, followed by fruit with perhaps a cheese course). Evening meals would consequently be lighter - often just soup, a salad, cold meats, with fruit afterwards. Dessert was absolutely an occasional treat - usually weekends, and almost always followed with a walk to aid digestion (and counter the amount eaten). I know for sure that my sugar consumption was pretty damn low during my time in Italy, mostly because they simply don't have the sheer quantity of sugary, pre-prepared snacks that are found in the UK and US. By the way, gelato is made with mostly milk (not just cream, as per most usual ice creams), and I've found gelato usually contains far less sugar than the alternatives (even sorbet). It just tastes creamier because of the way it's made!
It's not that the Italians don't 'do' sweets, they just treat them in a very different way to the average Brit or American. They certainly don't deny themselves great food (heaven forbid!), but everything they eat generally is in much smaller quantities. "A little of what you fancy" could be the Italian food motto!
Yes, exactly. It's not what they eat, it's how they eat.1 -
I am just pointing out we don't have the scientific understanding of the biochemistry of the physical body. There are several books out now discussing this exact topic. I am not sure why people feel the need to defend calorie counting. Yes, calorie counting can work but it is a very small sliver of the equation. Up until now,it is the best we have if wanting to lose weight. Our wheat has been drastically changed due to GMO'S there really isn't any denying it. I really wasn't interested in getting into a big disagreement with anyone. I was just sharing the information I have been studying over the past year. I find it very fascinating but not everyone will. Here are some articles if interested:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-gut-bacteria-help-make-us-fat-and-thin/
There are several books out as well.
Fair enough. I agree that the gut bacteria studies are interesting and I'm going to read your link.
You might be right that we don't understand fully the biochemistry of the body. I'm saying that CICO is only about weightloss, the rest of what you mention seems to be all about nutrition. Both are important but not necessarily related. Possibly we agree on this.0 -
I am just pointing out we don't have the scientific understanding of the biochemistry of the physical body. There are several books out now discussing this exact topic. I am not sure why people feel the need to defend calorie counting. Yes, calorie counting can work but it is a very small sliver of the equation. Up until now,it is the best we have if wanting to lose weight. Our wheat has been drastically changed due to GMO'S there really isn't any denying it. I really wasn't interested in getting into a big disagreement with anyone. I was just sharing the information I have been studying over the past year. I find it very fascinating but not everyone will. Here are some articles if interested:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-gut-bacteria-help-make-us-fat-and-thin/
There are several books out as well.
Yes, we don't know everything about biochemistry.
However, we know some of the underlying facts which are the main drivers. Some intricacies like gut bacteria are nice and well to read about, but neither practicable for the average Joe, nor making a huge difference in the long run. A bacteria transplant won't suddenly allow you to eat twice as much while staying your weight.
The facts we know are based on the laws of physics at the bottom layer, energy conservation first and foremost. Energy you never put in your body can't become fat.
I don't know which specific law says it but the next part is "Every action requires energy, a perpetuum mobile does not exist." which means that there is an absoulte minimum of energy anything your body does requires, so you will always burn at least that minimum amount of energy.
Those are facts of the universe that are true for everyone, no exceptions.
Then come more detailed things we know based on our actual biology, like metabolic pathways different chemicals take through your body, those are well documented, as well as average bioavailability of calories from different macros (which are not absolutely accurate but still pretty good). We know exactly what happens with a glucose molecule that your body gets out of a food you've eaten, how it gets processed in your body down to the amounts of ATP molecules it ends up getting turned into and how much energy those provide each.
We know a lot more than you're letting on.
There's still lots of things we don't know, but the things we DO know provide us with enough insight to know that in the next few years there won't be a huge breakthrough showing poop transplants can make everyone thin forever.5 -
paulgads82 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »I wouldn't be that confident about Italy. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx
Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.
Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.
Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.0 -
snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »I wouldn't be that confident about Italy. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx
Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.
Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.
Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.
The obese in Italy are largely children, according to the EASO's 2015 obesity stats - adult obesity (10%) and childhood obesity (34-36%). Obesity is more prevalent in the south than the north. The stats @paulgads cited looks like it probably combined both adult and childhood obesity into a single stat (ETA: plus, was from a different year/different survey).0 -
snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »I wouldn't be that confident about Italy. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx
Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.
Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.
Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.
Observations aren't reliable, for obvious reasons, so I'm not sure if it's worth sharing them. Besides the stats don't say Italy is as high as the US or UK, just that the issue of obesity isn't as small as insinuated in this discussion. I didn't see many obese people in the US, nor did I in Spain or Italy, yet they are there. If my stats are off I'm happy to correct, I made a search as this discussion interested me and most sources had similar results.1 -
snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »paulgads82 wrote: »I wouldn't be that confident about Italy. http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/loseweight/Pages/statistics-and-causes-of-the-obesity-epidemic-in-the-UK.aspx
Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.
Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.
Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.
The obese in Italy are largely children, according to the EASO's 2015 obesity stats - adult obesity (10%) and childhood obesity (34-36%). Obesity is more prevalent in the south than the north. The stats @paulgads cited looks like it probably combined both adult and childhood obesity into a single stat.
Could be, but my husbands family comes from the south. They have a mentality that fat children are healthier. I think it's because the infant mortality rate used to be so high until after WWII. Fatter children had a better chance of survival when illness hit. The south was alot further behind medically than the north. Those children slim down in adolescence--at least that's what I've seen. You also have areas of Calabria, where Keyes and his wife lived and studied Italian nutrition. People easily live to be 100 in the southern "triangle". So, statistics in Italy don't always tell the whole story.2 -
Bye then0
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PiperGirl08 wrote: »by Tracey Anderson,
http://motto.time.com/4315473/tracy-anderson-calorie-counting/?xid=newsletter-brief
"People need to have the courage and the determination to understand food and to really reflect on their past relationships with food. It’s more about the awareness of the kinds of food people are eating, the amounts they’re eating...so much of our hunger is not even rooted in a real biological need to eat; a lot of it is rooted in emotion.
"I think it’s just about having an ongoing dialogue with yourself where you try as often as possible to say, “How can I show up for myself and my body today through my food choices?”"
I agree. Thoughts?
Sure. But that is half it. There is the emotional state but the conscious logic and the conscious emotional must come together
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