Opinion on low carb?
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Replies
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My opinion: great for short term weight loss and contest preplogandiekmann15 wrote: »Any opinions or pros/cons?
What other things work well for long term weight loss?
Not so great for long term if you happen to enjoy things like bread, potatoes, and desserts.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Or you could just eat reasonable amounts of all macronutrients, including carbohydrates AND fat.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »Some people find it easier to restrict calories (and therefore lose weight) when they eat a diet that is lower in carbohydrates. It can be a good plan if you're in that camp and you don't mind eating that way. But some people have problems sustaining it.
To lose weight, all you need is to consume fewer calories than you burn.
This is true. My husband can't control himself when it comes to bread, pasta, rice, etc. If he has one slice of bread he will binge and eat 1/2 loaf, for instance. So low carb helps him.
I love potatoes and feel satisfied after eating one baked or a couple boiled with veggies and lean protein. I'm not a big bread or pasta person but like starchy veggies like lima beans, petite peas, etc. If I have complex carbs I feel terrific. Simple carbs like sugar and refined flour profucts make me crave more and I feel awful after consuming them. Everyone is different.0 -
ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well
. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
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tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
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tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.2 -
ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Interesting first post. Could you point the way to some evidence based research in this area? I am very interested in your post. People with metabolic syndrome and related conditions are being pointed towards lower carb diets because of GI. Do you have some quality sources (double blinded studies or evidence based research) to the contrary? Would love to read them.2 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.
Seventh day Adventists are definitely vegetarian, but many supplement their diets with eggs or dairy.
That said, I never said people should avoid veganism, I just questioned ThinnerIsMe's assertion that veganism will make "everyone" feel better and that it is "best" for our bodies/health - that's codswallop. Personally I don't believe there is just one optimal way of eating. Veganism is an extremely restrictive lifestyle (it's not just about food either). If you prefer to do that, are happy with it, and are meeting your goals, great! Keep on keepin on! But there are certain nutrients that need to be supplemented or that may not be available at all... Things to consider before starting.
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tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.
Seventh day Adventists are definitely vegetarian, but many supplement their diets with eggs or dairy.
That said, I never said people should avoid veganism, I just questioned ThinnerIsMe's assertion that veganism will make "everyone" feel better and that it is "best" for our bodies/health - that's codswallop. Personally I don't believe there is just one optimal way of eating. Veganism is an extremely restrictive lifestyle (it's not just about food either). If you prefer to do that, are happy with it, and are meeting your goals, great! Keep on keepin on! But there are certain nutrients that need to be supplemented or that may not be available at all... Things to consider before starting.
Many do, but some don't. The studies I'm talking about involve the individuals who don't eat dairy or eggs.
I understand that veganism isn't just about food. I've been vegan for over ten years now.0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.
Seventh day Adventists are definitely vegetarian, but many supplement their diets with eggs or dairy.
That said, I never said people should avoid veganism, I just questioned ThinnerIsMe's assertion that veganism will make "everyone" feel better and that it is "best" for our bodies/health - that's codswallop. Personally I don't believe there is just one optimal way of eating. Veganism is an extremely restrictive lifestyle (it's not just about food either). If you prefer to do that, are happy with it, and are meeting your goals, great! Keep on keepin on! But there are certain nutrients that need to be supplemented or that may not be available at all... Things to consider before starting.
Many do, but some don't. The studies I'm talking about involve the individuals who don't eat dairy or eggs.
I understand that veganism isn't just about food. I've been vegan for over ten years now.
Could you link to those studies?
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I tried a high protein / low carb diet during the first month and soon realized I don't want to eat like that the rest of my life. I enjoy potatoes, pasta and sandwiches. I just stayed under my calories and when I would eat bread, I aimed for the whole grain to help me reach my fiber goal.
What worked for me. Weighing, logging, and I made sure I kept my house full of healthy foods I really liked. I kept the "bad" foods out and the reason I say "bad" is because it is very bad for me to eat a half a bag of cookies/chips...I can do this every day with a smile on my face and no regrets. lol1 -
tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.
Seventh day Adventists are definitely vegetarian, but many supplement their diets with eggs or dairy.
That said, I never said people should avoid veganism, I just questioned ThinnerIsMe's assertion that veganism will make "everyone" feel better and that it is "best" for our bodies/health - that's codswallop. Personally I don't believe there is just one optimal way of eating. Veganism is an extremely restrictive lifestyle (it's not just about food either). If you prefer to do that, are happy with it, and are meeting your goals, great! Keep on keepin on! But there are certain nutrients that need to be supplemented or that may not be available at all... Things to consider before starting.
Many do, but some don't. The studies I'm talking about involve the individuals who don't eat dairy or eggs.
I understand that veganism isn't just about food. I've been vegan for over ten years now.
Could you link to those studies?
They were referenced in hard copy books I read at the beginning of my veganism, but I've found veganhealth.org to be a good source for science-based information about veganism. The man who runs it is an RD -- this page contains some information about one of the studies comparing nutrient intake for different groups of Adventists (including vegans and non-vegans): http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/nutrientintakes0 -
janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.
Seventh day Adventists are definitely vegetarian, but many supplement their diets with eggs or dairy.
That said, I never said people should avoid veganism, I just questioned ThinnerIsMe's assertion that veganism will make "everyone" feel better and that it is "best" for our bodies/health - that's codswallop. Personally I don't believe there is just one optimal way of eating. Veganism is an extremely restrictive lifestyle (it's not just about food either). If you prefer to do that, are happy with it, and are meeting your goals, great! Keep on keepin on! But there are certain nutrients that need to be supplemented or that may not be available at all... Things to consider before starting.
Many do, but some don't. The studies I'm talking about involve the individuals who don't eat dairy or eggs.
I understand that veganism isn't just about food. I've been vegan for over ten years now.
Could you link to those studies?
They were referenced in hard copy books I read at the beginning of my veganism, but I've found veganhealth.org to be a good source for science-based information about veganism. The man who runs it is an RD -- this page contains some information about one of the studies comparing nutrient intake for different groups of Adventists (including vegans and non-vegans): http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/nutrientintakes
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately cholesterol was not one of the nutrients studied, not to mention the mean age of participants was 59 years old, it said nothing about how many young children and pregnant/lactating women were even involved, and it only linked to the abstract. That said, any breastfed baby is by definition not vegan - we all start out eating exclusively animal products (well, we did until the invention of soy formulas anyway). I just have a hard time buying the notion that a diet devoid of animal products (which would have to include breastmilk) is "best" for everyone. At least I can't reconcile that with the often touted notion that "breast is best" lol.
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tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.
Seventh day Adventists are definitely vegetarian, but many supplement their diets with eggs or dairy.
That said, I never said people should avoid veganism, I just questioned ThinnerIsMe's assertion that veganism will make "everyone" feel better and that it is "best" for our bodies/health - that's codswallop. Personally I don't believe there is just one optimal way of eating. Veganism is an extremely restrictive lifestyle (it's not just about food either). If you prefer to do that, are happy with it, and are meeting your goals, great! Keep on keepin on! But there are certain nutrients that need to be supplemented or that may not be available at all... Things to consider before starting.
Many do, but some don't. The studies I'm talking about involve the individuals who don't eat dairy or eggs.
I understand that veganism isn't just about food. I've been vegan for over ten years now.
Could you link to those studies?
They were referenced in hard copy books I read at the beginning of my veganism, but I've found veganhealth.org to be a good source for science-based information about veganism. The man who runs it is an RD -- this page contains some information about one of the studies comparing nutrient intake for different groups of Adventists (including vegans and non-vegans): http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/nutrientintakes
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately cholesterol was not one of the nutrients studied, not to mention the mean age of participants was 59 years old, it said nothing about how many young children and pregnant/lactating women were even involved, and it only linked to the abstract. That said, any breastfed baby is by definition not vegan - we all start out eating exclusively animal products (well, we did until the invention of soy formulas anyway). I just have a hard time buying the notion that a diet devoid of animal products (which would have to include breastmilk) is "best" for everyone. At least I can't reconcile that with the often touted notion that "breast is best" lol.
Veganism is an ethical position on unnecessary animal exploitation and suffering. Unless a woman is being forced to lactate, breastfeeding is completely compatible with veganism. Many vegan children begin their lives eating breastmilk.
Is your concern about young children and lactating/pregnant women based on specific studies you've seen about harm in these populations due to lack of cholesterol in their diets?0 -
Keep in mind that the varying opinions on carbs are often influenced by a person's physical activity and/or sport. As an endurance athlete, carbs are extremely important in my daily diet, which can consist of anywhere between 350 - 650 grams of carbs per day. If I do not maintain a steady influx of carbs into my body, I crash and burn during my workouts, and that's no fun. Carbs are muscle fuel and restore glycogen, which is extremely important to proper muscle function and usage. While your body is capable of using protein and/or fat as a fuel source, most athletes or those who work out hard will tell you that carbs are more efficient for energy availability.0
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janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »tlflag1620 wrote: »ThinnerIsMe wrote: »No one should be afraid of carbs!! Your body runs on sugar so you need them! High carb, low fat vegan lifestyle is the best for the body. I don't mean vegan junk food and prosessed vegan foods, but whole foods like rice, potatoes, veggies and fruits. Plus vegan lifestyle makes you feel amazing, and it's better for the whole world! And don't give me that "where do you get your proteins from". Please do some research.
Nonsense. Your body is equally capable of "running" on fat. If you prefer vegan for whatever reason, great, I'm glad you found what works for you, but that doesn't mean it's best for everyone (and the impact on the planet isn't exactly as clear cut as many vegans would like to believe). All that is required for weight loss is a calorie deficit, regardless of what types of foods you choose. Yes most people feel better eating minimally processed foods and less "junk", but that's true regardless of dietary framework. Personally I feel best on a diet that incorporates plenty of animal products and limits sugar and starch.
Forget protein, that's easy to come by. I do wonder where vegans get DHA and EPA (conversion of ALA is unpredictable, inefficient, and tends to wane over time), and where vegan children, older folks, and those who are pregnant or nursing get their cholesterol (there are no plant based sources of cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is one of the things that allowed us to develop the large brains that make us human; yes, healthy young adult males are capable of producing all they need and therefore don't require a dietary source, but not everyone is a healthy young adult male).
OP- what dietary framework you decide to use is really a matter of personal preference, nothing more. There are healthy and unhealthy food choices within any way of eating out there. I find LCHF to be easiest and most sustainable for me (been doing it for three years, come July, and have easily kept a healthy weight since the initial 50lb loss). But I have a strong family history of IR, type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, heart disease, and Alzheimer's, not to mention a personal history of reactive hypoglycemia - I come from a group of people who just don't handle sugar and starch very well. So it's no big surprise that I do better strictly limiting grains, fruit, and starchy veg. You just need to find what works best for you!
I take a vegan DHA, they're easily available online. As far as cholesterol, it's my understanding that studies of vegan populations indicate that we generally have levels that are consistent with health.
Oh yeah, forgot about algae... My bad!
As for cholesterol- Have there ever been any reproducing vegan societies? Not to my knowledge. Most vegans are adults. Have vegan children been studied? What about the elderly? Pregnant and/or lactating women? Those with compromised liver function? All of those groups have higher cholesterol needs (it's essential for brain and nervous system development, hormone production, and cell repair), and may or may not be able to keep up with the need without a dietary source (there is a reason breast milk is so rich in cholesterol, but what happens after weaning, or if lactation doesn't work out?). Lack of dietary cholesterol is one of the things that makes me think vegan isn't the best idea for everyone. Vegetarian isn't so bad (it usually includes some eggs and/or dairy - great sources of cholesterol), and pescetarian would likely have enough, but there simply aren't any plant based sources of cholesterol.
Many Seventh Day Adventists are vegan -- their multi-generational vegan families are often used for some of these studies. These communities include children, the elderly, pregnant/lactating women, and people with compromised liver function (I'm assuming on the last one, not aware of any specific studies on this). Additional studies have also focused on the long-term health of vegan children and the elderly.
Obviously, individual vegans should pay attention to their cholesterol levels, but I don't think *some* individuals having an issue with producing their own cholesterol is a reason for *everyone* to avoid veganism.
Your concern is appreciated, but science-based vegans are already aware of these issues and address them in scholarship and in materials for public consumption.
Seventh day Adventists are definitely vegetarian, but many supplement their diets with eggs or dairy.
That said, I never said people should avoid veganism, I just questioned ThinnerIsMe's assertion that veganism will make "everyone" feel better and that it is "best" for our bodies/health - that's codswallop. Personally I don't believe there is just one optimal way of eating. Veganism is an extremely restrictive lifestyle (it's not just about food either). If you prefer to do that, are happy with it, and are meeting your goals, great! Keep on keepin on! But there are certain nutrients that need to be supplemented or that may not be available at all... Things to consider before starting.
Many do, but some don't. The studies I'm talking about involve the individuals who don't eat dairy or eggs.
I understand that veganism isn't just about food. I've been vegan for over ten years now.
Could you link to those studies?
They were referenced in hard copy books I read at the beginning of my veganism, but I've found veganhealth.org to be a good source for science-based information about veganism. The man who runs it is an RD -- this page contains some information about one of the studies comparing nutrient intake for different groups of Adventists (including vegans and non-vegans): http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/nutrientintakes
Thanks for the link. Unfortunately cholesterol was not one of the nutrients studied, not to mention the mean age of participants was 59 years old, it said nothing about how many young children and pregnant/lactating women were even involved, and it only linked to the abstract. That said, any breastfed baby is by definition not vegan - we all start out eating exclusively animal products (well, we did until the invention of soy formulas anyway). I just have a hard time buying the notion that a diet devoid of animal products (which would have to include breastmilk) is "best" for everyone. At least I can't reconcile that with the often touted notion that "breast is best" lol.
Veganism is an ethical position on unnecessary animal exploitation and suffering. Unless a woman is being forced to lactate, breastfeeding is completely compatible with veganism. Many vegan children begin their lives eating breastmilk.
Is your concern about young children and lactating/pregnant women based on specific studies you've seen about harm in these populations due to lack of cholesterol in their diets?
My concern is based on the fact that babies and young children (until about age 6) have immature livers, yet their brains and nervous systems are growing at a rapid clip. Our offspring are referred to as "neonates" initially because they are so much less developed than other primates are at delivery. A full term baby is born with a brain 25% the size of an adult, a two year old child's brain is rough 75% the size of an adult brain, and a 5 year old's is about 90%, with continued growth and development into the mid twenties. Our bipedal pelvises demand we be born with smaller head circumference, necessitating that we are born pretty underdeveloped. Brains and nervous systems (not to mention hormones) rely on cholesterol for formation. Dietary sources of cholesterol allowed us to evolve into Homo sapiens. Breastmilk (undoubtedly an animal product, "humanely" sourced or not) is rich in cholesterol. However babies begin the process of weaning after just a short time (usually 4-6 months) and most children in the developed world are fully weaned long before the liver reaches maturity. They need a dietary source of cholesterol at that point. I'm not aware of any long term studies of babies and young children fed exclusively vegan diets, and how that might impact brain and nervous system development. My concern is that ThinnerIsMe is telling people that vegan is "best for everyone" when we just don't know that, and it simply doesn't make sense on its face that a diet that includes no animal products would be "best" considering the fact that the only reason we are different than other primates is the fact that we started eating significant quantities of meat (other primates do eat meat, just not as much).
It's one thing to say you eat vegan due to ethical concerns. I can understand your reasoning, even if I don't share that opinion. But saying vegan is the optimal way to eat for everyone? That's a horse of a different color.
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It works well for me. I'm insulin resistant and low carb has been life changing.0
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I tried a high protein / low carb diet during the first month and soon realized I don't want to eat like that the rest of my life. I enjoy potatoes, pasta and sandwiches. I just stayed under my calories and when I would eat bread, I aimed for the whole grain to help me reach my fiber goal.
What worked for me. Weighing, logging, and I made sure I kept my house full of healthy foods I really liked. I kept the "bad" foods out and the reason I say "bad" is because it is very bad for me to eat a half a bag of cookies/chips...I can do this every day with a smile on my face and no regrets. lol
very well put
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I started low carb in February and have lost 56lbs to date with about 17 left to go (full disclosure: I also work out six days a week). For me its sustainable lifetime because I'm not a huge carb person (hate pasta and rice!) and the handful of things I might "miss" there are low-carb versions of (rutabaga poutine anyone
?)- its only as limiting as you choose to make it imo. But for the most part low-carb has helped me to appreciate again that food is about nutrition and fueling your body, not about enjoyment. Unlike the MFP majority I think IIFYM CICO would be disastrous for me because had I not reframed my thinking during low carb induction I would've easily eaten over deficit because carbs are very easy for me to overeat.
In deciding if low carb living is for you consider if you can live like this forever, the majority of your diet being cruciferous veg accompanied by lean meats. If you feel like you can't that's totally okay! Lots of people on here report good losses with CICO! Whatever will help you make a positive lifestyle change and make you happy is what you should pursue!
Good luck in your weight loss journey OP
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