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I Don't Believe in Calorie Counting

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  • JaneSnoweJaneSnowe Posts: 1,282Member Member Posts: 1,282Member Member
    LKM54 wrote: »
    The wheat we grow today here in America isn't the wheat of the 1950's. The wheat in Italy is still much more natural. Also, the portions in America are overly large not so in Italy. I never said not to count calories. I said, Science needs to catch up in understanding metabolism, fat, bacteria, cellular use of energy as in calories, hormones etc. My point was in regards to a response that said you can't argue with science. Science is behind the curve in understanding the complexity of the bodily system. Counting calories is the best we have right now but often times we know people still can't lose weight or it takes them forever to lose a few pounds. And, in the end, most times many gain it back. Why is one person able to eat whatever and stay at a normal size and another person gains weight? One woman was thin and had a fecal transplant the donor was obese. After the surgery, the thin woman became obese. Here is the article. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwiFmov7nO7MAhVKOD4KHUglCRQQFggdMAA&url=http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/woman-becomes-obese-after-fecal-transplant-overweight-donor&usg=AFQjCNGGNmMbmBusUbAwlnWs7jkbjta
    Calories hardly provide the whole picture we need more scientific data to truly understand metabolism/energy use, bacteria load etc.

    Energy you don't consume cannot become fat, that is an immutable fact. Bodyfat can't appaer out of nowhere.
    Another fact is that everybody burns energy just to live, so a certain amount of food going in is required to stay at your weight.
    Next fact: The vast majority of people are very close to each other in resting metabolism. https://examine.com/faq/does-metabolism-vary-between-two-people/

    Another thing we know because of all of the above: there is no person on the planet who is healthy and can eat everything and stay thin as well as there is no person on the planet who can eat nothing and stay fat.

    Another thing we know: people suck balls at guessing how much they're eating and that disconnect seems to increase with your waist.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19386746

    We know a lot of things about metabolism already, and paired with our understanding of the universe as a whole, all major health institutions will tell you that energy balance is what drives your weight development.
    A fecal transplant alone doesn't make you turn obese. Increased intake of foods does.

    About your link: The donor wasn't obese.
    "As per the patient's request, her 16-year-old daughter was chosen as the stool donor. At the time of FMT, her daughter's weight was ∼140 pounds (BMI of 26.4), but it increased later to 170 pounds."
    The mother who got the transplant then went on to gain 34 pounds, which pushed her into obese (she was in overweight before, as was her daughter).

    http://ofid.oxfordjournals.org/content/2/1/ofv004.full

    So the daughter only got fat AFTER she gave the transplant, which coincided with the mother getting fat too. One got fatter after getting the feces, the other got fatter after giving them. Doesn't really make much sense.

    Plus the whole thing was about treating CDI.
    If you treat CDI successfully, you may gain weight from eating (now without the pain and diarrhoea from before...)

    I was going to say the same thing! Of course the recipient would be more likely to gain weight after the procedure. If her health improved, her body would be absorbing more nutrition from her food!

    Now, are there any cases of people getting skinner after receiving a fecal transplant from a skinny person? Edit: Cuz if there are, sign me up!
    edited May 2016
  • JaneSnoweJaneSnowe Posts: 1,282Member Member Posts: 1,282Member Member
    LKM54 wrote: »
    It looks like I am coming late to this debate. I would like to comment about the response that science doesn't lie with regards to this post. The truth is we don't have a lot of factual based science regarding how a calorie really works, how it feeds the cells etc. Most of the information out there is what has been deduced but not seriously studied in a lab. There are two doctors, sorry can't remember their names, that were gaining large amounts of weight on the government food pyramid. An aside, the grain lobby got their hands up in government, follow the money, and changed the food pyramid. This is when we started really getting fatter as a society. Back to the doctors, they both started paleo, and of course lost all their weight. They are now embarking on scientific study to truly understand how food is used as energy etc. Are all calories the same or not? What feeds what cell in our body etc. Of course, when trying to lose weight I agree you can't just eat 5,000 calories and expect to shed the pounds. Our limited understanding at this point leads us to counting calories because we don't know enough. There is also a lot of speculation regarding bacterias found in the stomach. There was a study with fat and thin mice. They found that the thin mice had a bacteria the fat mice were lacking. When they added that bacteria to the fat mice, they lost weight. For me, the biggest issue is the small conversation we have in this country regarding size. I believe our country has a food disorder and there is absolutely a prejudice and misunderstanding when it comes to fat. I do believe, we are going to find out it is much more complicated, our systems anyway, than just calories in calories out. Science is behind in factual data regarding the fat conversation. Just wanted to add my two cents. There is a lot going on in this field now and I find it really interesting.

    Yes, there is a lot for scientists to explore. But regarding your two doctors, what were their calorie intakes when they were gaining weight? What about when they switched to paleo? Unless it can be proved that caloric intakes remained the same, their n=2 anecdote is pointless.

    Also, let's say for the sake of argument that it really is much more complicated than CICO. Our bodies are quite complex, after all! So let's take the example of a random food, say a carrot, which has been accurately proven to have, say, 50 kcals worth of energy. If you eat that, the MAXIMUM amount of calories that your body will receive is... wait for it... 50! It doesn't matter how the body processes the nutrients in the carrot; it will not be able to extract more than 50 kcal of energy because there simply is not more. However, it could possibly extract less due to inefficiency, in which case if you counted the 50 kcals in your food journal, you would have a deficit that you didn't know about!

    The US does not have a nation-wide food disorder. What it has is a serious lack of nutrition education and how it applies on a personal level.

    PS: Who in the world actually decides what to eat based on the US government's food pyramid?
  • paulgads82paulgads82 Posts: 256Member Member Posts: 256Member Member
    It's not a U.S. problem. We have obesity in the UK. Look at Guam too. There's nothing specific to the U.S. that doesn't apply to many other countries. Ignorance. Access to delicious food. Lack of exercise. Most of us live in a time of plenty, historically speaking. Plentiful food. Plentiful spare time.
  • dizzieblondeukdizzieblondeuk Posts: 286Member Member Posts: 286Member Member
    MissusMoon wrote: »
    There you're wrong. The deserts here in Italy are incredible. They do give you a much smaller portion, but the sugar is there just the same. Chocolates and gelato are also fabulous. The Italians know how to eat well and don't deny themselves anything. Here, there is no talk of grain or sugar lobbies. Everyone just eats smaller portions, and walks alot.

    Word. Anyone who has strolled own a street in Italy has seen the bakeries. I can't even think about them without drooling. It's such a ridiculous assertion that they have "better" wheat and don't do sweets.
    Here's the things I learned after having an Italian best friend living next door, from the age of 6 months to 16 years old (in the UK), and then living with an Italian family, in Italy (working as an au pair), for 8 months when I was 18 years old:

    Sweet treats (i.e. pastries and gelato) are not really part of an Italian meal - they are frequently eaten entirely separately to the normal meals during the day - often in the late afternoon ('La Passeggiata'), where the family would take a long-ish stroll around the fashionable parts of the town/city, meeting friends, chatting, doing a little window shopping, and occasionally having a small tub of gelato, or a pastry.

    The fact that Italians eat pasta basically everyday is almost incidental to the fact that the pasta course is a starter/appetiser, and so is appropriately sized. Most of the time, my main meals with the Italian families I knew ended with fruit, or nothing at all - in fact the main meal of the day would frequently be lunch (occasionally antipasti to start, then primo, secondo, followed by fruit with perhaps a cheese course). Evening meals would consequently be lighter - often just soup, a salad, cold meats, with fruit afterwards. Dessert was absolutely an occasional treat - usually weekends, and almost always followed with a walk to aid digestion (and counter the amount eaten). I know for sure that my sugar consumption was pretty damn low during my time in Italy, mostly because they simply don't have the sheer quantity of sugary, pre-prepared snacks that are found in the UK and US. By the way, gelato is made with mostly milk (not just cream, as per most usual ice creams), and I've found gelato usually contains far less sugar than the alternatives (even sorbet). It just tastes creamier because of the way it's made!

    It's not that the Italians don't 'do' sweets, they just treat them in a very different way to the average Brit or American. They certainly don't deny themselves great food (heaven forbid!), but everything they eat generally is in much smaller quantities. "A little of what you fancy" could be the Italian food motto!
  • LKM54LKM54 Posts: 48Member Member Posts: 48Member Member
    I am just pointing out we don't have the scientific understanding of the biochemistry of the physical body. There are several books out now discussing this exact topic. I am not sure why people feel the need to defend calorie counting. Yes, calorie counting can work but it is a very small sliver of the equation. Up until now,it is the best we have if wanting to lose weight. Our wheat has been drastically changed due to GMO'S there really isn't any denying it. I really wasn't interested in getting into a big disagreement with anyone. I was just sharing the information I have been studying over the past year. I find it very fascinating but not everyone will. Here are some articles if interested:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-gut-bacteria-help-make-us-fat-and-thin/
    There are several books out as well.
  • paulgads82paulgads82 Posts: 256Member Member Posts: 256Member Member
  • MelodyandBarbellsMelodyandBarbells Posts: 7,637Member Member Posts: 7,637Member Member
    LKM54 wrote: »
    I am just pointing out we don't have the scientific understanding of the biochemistry of the physical body. There are several books out now discussing this exact topic. I am not sure why people feel the need to defend calorie counting. Yes, calorie counting can work but it is a very small sliver of the equation. Up until now,it is the best we have if wanting to lose weight. Our wheat has been drastically changed due to GMO'S there really isn't any denying it. I really wasn't interested in getting into a big disagreement with anyone. I was just sharing the information I have been studying over the past year. I find it very fascinating but not everyone will. Here are some articles if interested:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-gut-bacteria-help-make-us-fat-and-thin/
    There are several books out as well.

    You haven't answered the questions posited by the counters: why does any of this matter if manipulating the calories consumed has the desired effect on weight? Sounds a lot more palatable than any got dang bacteria transplant to me. Ew.
    edited May 2016
  • J72FITJ72FIT Posts: 5,292Member Member Posts: 5,292Member Member
    Mother Nature has been genetically modifying our food since the dawn of time. GMO's do not make us fat, sorry they just don't...
  • snowflake954snowflake954 Posts: 4,030Member Member Posts: 4,030Member Member
    paulgads82 wrote: »

    Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.
    edited May 2016
  • paulgads82paulgads82 Posts: 256Member Member Posts: 256Member Member
    paulgads82 wrote: »

    Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.

    Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.
  • Need2Exerc1seNeed2Exerc1se Posts: 13,589Member Member Posts: 13,589Member Member
    Eileen_S wrote: »
    Eileen_S wrote: »
    If one does not count how are they going to learn if they are over eating or not
    I don't count calories. Using these 2 items has worked out well for me. As of now they are telling me that I need to gain 4 pounds. I would imagine others can use these tools to see if they are overeating as well.....
    wpceh7ebifpx.jpeg

    That's a pretty time delayed method to find out if you're overeating. And one could argue that the time it takes you to measure and weigh yourself is no shorter than the time it takes to weigh your food.

    How so? It hasn't been "delayed" for me at all. It only takes 2 minutes of my time once a week to weigh in and take measurements. I'll bet it takes a lot longer than that to weigh food and log it everyday. I'm not saying anything in favor of or against calorie counting. However, I don't think it's necessarily the only method to see whether or not you're gaining weight, and it certainly isn't necessary for everyone.

    You'd lose the bet. It takes me about 1 minute while prepping to weigh my foods. Also takes less than a minute to log, as my food choices are all saved already because they don't change month to month, just a matter of inputting today's numbers. The problem with the scale and tape is you don't know you're overeating until it's time to fix it again....

    This is all well and good for someone that enjoys eating the same foods over and over. But not everyone is like that. I don't log because it was extremely time consuming for me. I don't use recipes so even common meals vary a little each time I prepare them. We have a vast variety of dishes we eat and it's quite common to just make up a new dish on the fly. We enjoy creating new meals. I didn't count or log and I still lost weight. I can tell when I overeat.
  • MissusMoonMissusMoon Posts: 1,911Member Member Posts: 1,911Member Member
    MissusMoon wrote: »
    There you're wrong. The deserts here in Italy are incredible. They do give you a much smaller portion, but the sugar is there just the same. Chocolates and gelato are also fabulous. The Italians know how to eat well and don't deny themselves anything. Here, there is no talk of grain or sugar lobbies. Everyone just eats smaller portions, and walks alot.

    Word. Anyone who has strolled own a street in Italy has seen the bakeries. I can't even think about them without drooling. It's such a ridiculous assertion that they have "better" wheat and don't do sweets.
    Here's the things I learned after having an Italian best friend living next door, from the age of 6 months to 16 years old (in the UK), and then living with an Italian family, in Italy (working as an au pair), for 8 months when I was 18 years old:

    Sweet treats (i.e. pastries and gelato) are not really part of an Italian meal - they are frequently eaten entirely separately to the normal meals during the day - often in the late afternoon ('La Passeggiata'), where the family would take a long-ish stroll around the fashionable parts of the town/city, meeting friends, chatting, doing a little window shopping, and occasionally having a small tub of gelato, or a pastry.

    The fact that Italians eat pasta basically everyday is almost incidental to the fact that the pasta course is a starter/appetiser, and so is appropriately sized. Most of the time, my main meals with the Italian families I knew ended with fruit, or nothing at all - in fact the main meal of the day would frequently be lunch (occasionally antipasti to start, then primo, secondo, followed by fruit with perhaps a cheese course). Evening meals would consequently be lighter - often just soup, a salad, cold meats, with fruit afterwards. Dessert was absolutely an occasional treat - usually weekends, and almost always followed with a walk to aid digestion (and counter the amount eaten). I know for sure that my sugar consumption was pretty damn low during my time in Italy, mostly because they simply don't have the sheer quantity of sugary, pre-prepared snacks that are found in the UK and US. By the way, gelato is made with mostly milk (not just cream, as per most usual ice creams), and I've found gelato usually contains far less sugar than the alternatives (even sorbet). It just tastes creamier because of the way it's made!

    It's not that the Italians don't 'do' sweets, they just treat them in a very different way to the average Brit or American. They certainly don't deny themselves great food (heaven forbid!), but everything they eat generally is in much smaller quantities. "A little of what you fancy" could be the Italian food motto!

    Yes, exactly. It's not what they eat, it's how they eat.
  • JaneSnoweJaneSnowe Posts: 1,282Member Member Posts: 1,282Member Member
    LKM54 wrote: »
    I am just pointing out we don't have the scientific understanding of the biochemistry of the physical body. There are several books out now discussing this exact topic. I am not sure why people feel the need to defend calorie counting. Yes, calorie counting can work but it is a very small sliver of the equation. Up until now,it is the best we have if wanting to lose weight. Our wheat has been drastically changed due to GMO'S there really isn't any denying it. I really wasn't interested in getting into a big disagreement with anyone. I was just sharing the information I have been studying over the past year. I find it very fascinating but not everyone will. Here are some articles if interested:http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-gut-bacteria-help-make-us-fat-and-thin/
    There are several books out as well.

    Fair enough. I agree that the gut bacteria studies are interesting and I'm going to read your link.

    You might be right that we don't understand fully the biochemistry of the body. I'm saying that CICO is only about weightloss, the rest of what you mention seems to be all about nutrition. Both are important but not necessarily related. Possibly we agree on this.
  • snowflake954snowflake954 Posts: 4,030Member Member Posts: 4,030Member Member
    paulgads82 wrote: »
    paulgads82 wrote: »

    Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.

    Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.

    Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.
  • stealthqstealthq Posts: 4,307Member Member Posts: 4,307Member Member
    paulgads82 wrote: »
    paulgads82 wrote: »

    Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.

    Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.

    Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.

    The obese in Italy are largely children, according to the EASO's 2015 obesity stats - adult obesity (10%) and childhood obesity (34-36%). Obesity is more prevalent in the south than the north. The stats @paulgads cited looks like it probably combined both adult and childhood obesity into a single stat (ETA: plus, was from a different year/different survey).
    edited May 2016
  • paulgads82paulgads82 Posts: 256Member Member Posts: 256Member Member
    paulgads82 wrote: »
    paulgads82 wrote: »

    Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.

    Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.

    Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.

    Observations aren't reliable, for obvious reasons, so I'm not sure if it's worth sharing them. Besides the stats don't say Italy is as high as the US or UK, just that the issue of obesity isn't as small as insinuated in this discussion. I didn't see many obese people in the US, nor did I in Spain or Italy, yet they are there. If my stats are off I'm happy to correct, I made a search as this discussion interested me and most sources had similar results.
    edited May 2016
  • snowflake954snowflake954 Posts: 4,030Member Member Posts: 4,030Member Member
    stealthq wrote: »
    paulgads82 wrote: »
    paulgads82 wrote: »

    Have you ever been here? Meaning Italy.

    Yes but what relevance does that have? You can't argue obesity stats with anecdotes.

    Well, your stats are from 2013. Also, I live here and have traveled all over the country, and do not often see an obese person--much less people. When I go home to the States, I am surrounded. Now, either the obese folks in Italy are hiding in their homes, and only come out late at night, or your stats are off. So, yes, I'm arguing your obesity stats. When you were here--what did you see? Just curious. And what area of the country did you visit? That is, if you care to share some ancedotes with us.

    The obese in Italy are largely children, according to the EASO's 2015 obesity stats - adult obesity (10%) and childhood obesity (34-36%). Obesity is more prevalent in the south than the north. The stats @paulgads cited looks like it probably combined both adult and childhood obesity into a single stat.

    Could be, but my husbands family comes from the south. They have a mentality that fat children are healthier. I think it's because the infant mortality rate used to be so high until after WWII. Fatter children had a better chance of survival when illness hit. The south was alot further behind medically than the north. Those children slim down in adolescence--at least that's what I've seen. You also have areas of Calabria, where Keyes and his wife lived and studied Italian nutrition. People easily live to be 100 in the southern "triangle". So, statistics in Italy don't always tell the whole story.
  • therealfitttherealfitt Posts: 8Member, Premium Member Posts: 8Member, Premium Member
  • jessiethe3rdjessiethe3rd Posts: 239Member, Premium Member Posts: 239Member, Premium Member
    by Tracey Anderson,
    http://motto.time.com/4315473/tracy-anderson-calorie-counting/?xid=newsletter-brief

    "People need to have the courage and the determination to understand food and to really reflect on their past relationships with food. It’s more about the awareness of the kinds of food people are eating, the amounts they’re eating...so much of our hunger is not even rooted in a real biological need to eat; a lot of it is rooted in emotion.

    "I think it’s just about having an ongoing dialogue with yourself where you try as often as possible to say, “How can I show up for myself and my body today through my food choices?”"

    I agree. Thoughts?

    Sure. But that is half it. There is the emotional state but the conscious logic and the conscious emotional must come together

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