The secret to building muscle
NasMax
Posts: 138 Member
Well it's not really a secret... just as needing a 'calorie deficit' to lose weight is not really a secret either
BUT, for one reason or another the concept of a calorie deficit is non existent to the overwhelmingly masses of the population
Add in the fact that there is a massive monopoly in the so called 'fitness industry' by insincere sales people who prefer to keep you confused as an easy ploy to take you're money, rather than help you achieve your goals, get a solid reputation and let their clients advertise your business as multiple walking, talking billboards.
(I'm all for the later)
Anyway, when it comes to losing fat the simple truth is that you need to create a caloric deficit.. that's it, there's no way around it. There's millions of ways to balance & adhere to a calorie deficit on a personal level... but none the less, you need to be in a calorie deficit.
So, on the flip flop (cool slang for flip slide, which is cool slang for opposite side) building muscle and gaining LEAN weight also comes down to ONE SIMPLE THING....
...but, just like the mythical fat loss solution (the calorie deficit) you're again never told what it is, because *kitten* usually sells better than truth.
Now before you even think about rubbishing this concept, just for a small moment try to recall some of the concepts that you were ADAMANT about before you came over to the good side & accepted that the calorie deficit was the God of fat loss... remember all those silly things you believed?
If you're looking to pack on new lean muscle tissue, you NEED to get stronger.
Yep, that's it.
FCK the fluff & pretty bb.com workout plans (they're created to sell you supplements by taking advantage of your naivety)
Just like the calorie deficit for fat loss, there is no way around this.
You HAVE to get stronger (if you're natural/not on steroids that is) if you want to get bigger
Have a quick cheeky read of this piece by the one & only great Dr Lyle McDonald
"Taking this out of the volume thread. For years I noticed that while natural bodybuilders often made no progress in muscle size, powerlifters always do. Always.
Here's why: powerlifting is BASED around adding weight to the bar. It's the explicit point of the sport. You can dick around bodybuilding with squeeze and pump and feel and find guys using the same weight for years.
And I don't care how much volume or frequency or anything else you're doing: adding weight to the bar > EVERYTHING else.
We knew this in the late 70's: PROGRESSIVE TENSION OVERLOAD is THE primary stimulus to growth. Everything else is secondary.
As Dante Trudell put it "Make strength gains in a moderate repetition range and you will grow." The end.
Or as I stated in that thread: find me a big natural bodybuilder who's not strong. Because I can find you thousands of small guys who are weak. And the difference is the last word of each sentence."
BUT, for one reason or another the concept of a calorie deficit is non existent to the overwhelmingly masses of the population
Add in the fact that there is a massive monopoly in the so called 'fitness industry' by insincere sales people who prefer to keep you confused as an easy ploy to take you're money, rather than help you achieve your goals, get a solid reputation and let their clients advertise your business as multiple walking, talking billboards.
(I'm all for the later)
Anyway, when it comes to losing fat the simple truth is that you need to create a caloric deficit.. that's it, there's no way around it. There's millions of ways to balance & adhere to a calorie deficit on a personal level... but none the less, you need to be in a calorie deficit.
So, on the flip flop (cool slang for flip slide, which is cool slang for opposite side) building muscle and gaining LEAN weight also comes down to ONE SIMPLE THING....
...but, just like the mythical fat loss solution (the calorie deficit) you're again never told what it is, because *kitten* usually sells better than truth.
Now before you even think about rubbishing this concept, just for a small moment try to recall some of the concepts that you were ADAMANT about before you came over to the good side & accepted that the calorie deficit was the God of fat loss... remember all those silly things you believed?
If you're looking to pack on new lean muscle tissue, you NEED to get stronger.
Yep, that's it.
FCK the fluff & pretty bb.com workout plans (they're created to sell you supplements by taking advantage of your naivety)
Just like the calorie deficit for fat loss, there is no way around this.
You HAVE to get stronger (if you're natural/not on steroids that is) if you want to get bigger
Have a quick cheeky read of this piece by the one & only great Dr Lyle McDonald
"Taking this out of the volume thread. For years I noticed that while natural bodybuilders often made no progress in muscle size, powerlifters always do. Always.
Here's why: powerlifting is BASED around adding weight to the bar. It's the explicit point of the sport. You can dick around bodybuilding with squeeze and pump and feel and find guys using the same weight for years.
And I don't care how much volume or frequency or anything else you're doing: adding weight to the bar > EVERYTHING else.
We knew this in the late 70's: PROGRESSIVE TENSION OVERLOAD is THE primary stimulus to growth. Everything else is secondary.
As Dante Trudell put it "Make strength gains in a moderate repetition range and you will grow." The end.
Or as I stated in that thread: find me a big natural bodybuilder who's not strong. Because I can find you thousands of small guys who are weak. And the difference is the last word of each sentence."
10
Replies
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I did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.10 -
This is what my husband says to me all the time. Ok, I'll bite. But just how much more weight and how often. 10 lbs more after a week? I don't think they have smaller free weight increments then that. What is your suggestion on this?3
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People can get stronger to a point without adding mass WHILE on a calorie deficit. It's called neuromuscular adaptation. And there are many athlete's who work on increasing strength without increasing their mass because it could affect how they do their sport. Gymnasts and powerlifters (because they compete in weight classes) are just a couple of examples.
usmcmp mentioned it. You need an adequate amount of calories (protein and carbs are essential) and progressive overload training to lead to muscle hypertrophy.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
7 -
Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual and time proven in the training science world.
This is backed up by the worlds top & leading exercise scienctists such as Lyle McDonald, Layne Norton, Eric Helms & just about every other single top tier exercise scientist.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.1 -
Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?1 -
hollen_carol wrote: »This is what my husband says to me all the time. Ok, I'll bite. But just how much more weight and how often. 10 lbs more after a week? I don't think they have smaller free weight increments then that. What is your suggestion on this?
Well if we're talking purely lean tissue gain... for a natural guy starting out, you're looking at 0.25 - 0.5lbs per week of actual tissue gain (maybe more in some cases, even upto 1lb for their initial introduction to the new stimulus), for women you can roughly half that amount
1 -
People can get stronger to a point without adding mass WHILE on a calorie deficit. It's called neuromuscular adaptation. And there are many athlete's who work on increasing strength without increasing their mass because it could affect how they do their sport. Gymnasts and powerlifters (because they compete in weight classes) are just a couple of examples.
usmcmp mentioned it. You need an adequate amount of calories (protein and carbs are essential) and progressive overload training to lead to muscle hypertrophy.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
100% agree! 0 -
Never mind, not worth it. Good luck with your clients.4
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It could also be classified as increasing muscular endurance.Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual and time proven in the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
Agree. Just got to stress that one can't add muscle without body weight going up. And for that to happen, there has to be enough calories and macros to support growth. There are lots of misconceptions that adding significant muscle on calorie deficit is a regular thing to do.The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
Thank you for this post, op. I have been trying to wade through the mumbo jumbo supplement pushing magazines etc to figure out exactly how I can gain more muscle mass. Sending a fr as I have a few questions :-)1
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Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?
There's litterally 100's of papers & studies on this conducted by the worlds leading exercise scientists. It's all free & in the open/public domain.0 -
It could also be classified as increasing muscular endurance.Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual and time proven in the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
Agree. Just got to stress that one can't add muscle without body weight going up. And for that to happen, there has to be enough calories and macros to support growth. There are lots of misconceptions that adding significant muscle on calorie deficit is a regular thing to do.The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
sorry dude, I think you've got your wires crossed with what I'm saying... I'm not talking about whilst being in a calorie deficit, I'm talking about whilst being at least at maintenance or preferably in a surplus. Hope that makes sense dude? 0 -
If you make a claim, it's not unusual for people who question it to ask for a link. Correct response would be to provide it for them since it's you making the claim and the burden of proof is on you to provide it. And most open minded people will read it. For many, it helps educationally.Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?
sounds like it would be pointless directing you to the 100's of papers & studies on this conducted by the worlds leading exercise scientists. It's all free & in the open/public domain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
If you make a claim, it's not unusual for people who question it to ask for a link. Correct response would be to provide it for them since it's you making the claim and the burden of proof is on you to provide it. And most open minded people will read it. For many, it helps educationally.Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?
sounds like it would be pointless directing you to the 100's of papers & studies on this conducted by the worlds leading exercise scientists. It's all free & in the open/public domain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's all in the public domain so anyone who's serious about learning and not just digging out info that fits their preferred bias can easily find the data. Historically I've found forwarding data on only to prove a point when already met with resistance is futile as the data still usually won't sway the minds of people who already have their minds made up... I've just found it to be an exercise in futility and a waste of time. But if people are open to concepts that are currently foreign to them, they will do the research... just my experience over a long time in this field.
But hold on 2 mins & I'll dig one of the most commonly referred to studies out.1 -
For example, one of the most commonly referred to studies published back in 2013 ago separated 33 physically active, resistance-trained men into two groups: (which has been replicated tons & tons of times)
(link to study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4562558/)
A high-volume, moderate-intensity group that did 4 workouts per week consisting of 4 sets per exercise in the 10 to 12 rep range (70% of 1RM).
A moderate-volume, high-intensity group that did 4 workouts per week consisting of 4 sets per exercise in the 3 to 5 rep range (90% of 1RM).
Both groups did the same exercises (which included the bench press, back squat, deadlift, and seated shoulder press), and both were instructed to maintain their normal eating habits (which was monitored with food diaries).
The result:
After 8 weeks of training, scientists found that the high-intensity group gained significantly more muscle and strength than the high-volume group.
It’s no surprise that the high-intensity group gained more strength, but many people wouldn’t have expected them to gain more muscle as well.
Researchers cite two main reasons for why the heavier training beat out the lighter:
1. Higher amounts of mechanical stress imposed on the muscles.
2. Greater activation of muscle fibers.
And this, in turn, results in a greater adaptation across a larger percentage of the muscle tissue.
My point is, you have to get STRONGER in whatever rep range you'e using. Be it 3-5, 8-10, 12-15 etc etc in order to get bigger.
Lifting the same weight year in year out whilst only increasing your caloric intake will not yield the continuous building of new muscle tissue.. physical progression has to occur (Strength in various different terms, but strength none the less)
2 -
This thread is timely and helpful for me. I'm going to disagree a little bit with the OP, though. Progressive overload isn't the only thing you need. Enough calories, with lots and lots of protein, too. I've been lifting heavy for almost two months and making some strength gains but minimal size gains; I just realized I need so much more protein than I had realized. Coming from a background as a cyclist, it's kind of shocking. I ate 5K calories yesterday and got tired of eating before the day was over, but I got enough protein in me. Most of this time, I guess I've been doing the work but selling myself short in the kitchen.
Few questions. How many surplus calories do I need to build upper body mass? If I get enough protein but go on a two hour bike ride on top of a lunch walk and lifting today, where does that leave me? Finally, all that lifting I did at a protein deficiency, that didn't really benefit me at all, did it?1 -
NorthCascades wrote: »This thread is timely and helpful for me. I'm going to disagree a little bit with the OP, though. Progressive overload isn't the only thing you need. Enough calories, with lots and lots of protein, too. I've been lifting heavy for almost two months and making some strength gains but minimal size gains; I just realized I need so much more protein than I had realized. Coming from a background as a cyclist, it's kind of shocking. I ate 5K calories yesterday and got tired of eating before the day was over, but I got enough protein in me. Most of this time, I guess I've been doing the work but selling myself short in the kitchen.
Few questions. How many surplus calories do I need to build upper body mass? If I get enough protein but go on a two hour bike ride on top of a lunch walk and lifting today, where does that leave me? Finally, all that lifting I did at a protein deficiency, that didn't really benefit me at all, did it?
good post
I'm not saying that it's the ONLY thing... there are many contributors, what I am saying (just to clarify) is that in order to build muscle & get bigger, you HAVE to get stronger.
Yes your caloric intake is extremely important, you need to be at at least maintenance to attempt a recomp.. or a caloric surplus to pursue a true 'bulk'
although the 'lots of lots of protein' comment leads me to believe that you're heavily bought into the supplement company marketing hype..
Google 'Eric Helms protein recommendations'
Hope that makes sense & helps? 1 -
I just Googled that, and read the abstract of the paper that comes up.
I've seen a lot of different recommendations for protein intake, it's hard to know which one to follow. Depending which one I go with, I should get anywhere from 150g to 350g per day. I feel like the top end is exaggerated, but again as a cyclist for many years, I just have no idea. I've probably been getting 75g per day while I've been lifting for the past two months, and I feel like I've gained very little muscle during that time. Seems like the best explanation is that I'm not getting enough protein to build muscle with. Does that sound right? I'm getting plenty of carbs.0 -
What are you stats if you don't mind me asking?
sex
weight
esitmated body fat
how long have you been lifting
what other exercise are you doing
whats your specific goal
all the good stuff & I'll be happy to help out with recommendations 0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I just Googled that, and read the abstract of the paper that comes up.
I've seen a lot of different recommendations for protein intake, it's hard to know which one to follow. Depending which one I go with, I should get anywhere from 150g to 350g per day. I feel like the top end is exaggerated, but again as a cyclist for many years, I just have no idea. I've probably been getting 75g per day while I've been lifting for the past two months, and I feel like I've gained very little muscle during that time. Seems like the best explanation is that I'm not getting enough protein to build muscle with. Does that sound right? I'm getting plenty of carbs.
What are you stats if you don't mind me asking?
sex
weight
esitmated body fat
how long have you been lifting
what other exercise are you doing
whats your specific goal
all the good stuff & I'll be happy to help out with recommendations 0 -
Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?
There's litterally 100's of papers & studies on this conducted by the worlds leading exercise scientists. It's all free & in the open/public domain.
But you do realize, that if you consider yourself an expert, you should be able to address the specific questions of the end user. Telling them to research the likes of Alan Aragon, Eric Helms and Lyle, means you are just regurgitating information.
But to be clear, your advice is, if you get stronger you can increase size?2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »This thread is timely and helpful for me. I'm going to disagree a little bit with the OP, though. Progressive overload isn't the only thing you need. Enough calories, with lots and lots of protein, too. I've been lifting heavy for almost two months and making some strength gains but minimal size gains; I just realized I need so much more protein than I had realized. Coming from a background as a cyclist, it's kind of shocking. I ate 5K calories yesterday and got tired of eating before the day was over, but I got enough protein in me. Most of this time, I guess I've been doing the work but selling myself short in the kitchen.
Few questions. How many surplus calories do I need to build upper body mass? If I get enough protein but go on a two hour bike ride on top of a lunch walk and lifting today, where does that leave me? Finally, all that lifting I did at a protein deficiency, that didn't really benefit me at all, did it?
If you are struggling to get calories, reduce some of your activity. Cycle on non lifting days, remove your lunch walks. If you are making strength gains and steadily increase weight (over a period of time), you should be gaining muscle.2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »I just Googled that, and read the abstract of the paper that comes up.
I've seen a lot of different recommendations for protein intake, it's hard to know which one to follow. Depending which one I go with, I should get anywhere from 150g to 350g per day. I feel like the top end is exaggerated, but again as a cyclist for many years, I just have no idea. I've probably been getting 75g per day while I've been lifting for the past two months, and I feel like I've gained very little muscle during that time. Seems like the best explanation is that I'm not getting enough protein to build muscle with. Does that sound right? I'm getting plenty of carbs.
What are you stats if you don't mind me asking?
sex
weight
esitmated body fat
how long have you been lifting
what other exercise are you doing
whats your specific goal
all the good stuff & I'll be happy to help out with recommendations
I'm a 38 year old male, 6'1" tall and about 225 lbs. Estimated body fat is 20 % and lean body mass 42 %, according to my smart scale. I know that's not the best way to calculate, but it's the best I have available to me right now. I started lifting (moderate weight, high reps) on May 26 and started lifting heavy (low reps) July 1. I lift every other day for about an hour, always focusing on arm and chest. My goal is to build upper body muscle. I ride a road bike about 100 miles per week on average.0 -
Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?
There's litterally 100's of papers & studies on this conducted by the worlds leading exercise scientists. It's all free & in the open/public domain.
But you do realize, that if you consider yourself an expert, you should be able to address the specific questions of the end user. Telling them to research the likes of Alan Aragon, Eric Helms and Lyle, means you are just regurgitating information.
But to be clear, your advice is, if you get stronger you can increase size?
Completely agree and I did link one of the most refered to studies that has been replicated time and time again...
Im all for providing as much info/data as possible when theres intetest... but when data requests come under the conditional "you're wrong, prove it" mentality... history and experience tells me im only wasting time for the sake of engaging in a futile back and forth in which anything I say or present will not be considered as this person has already made up their mind and closed the door behind them... so I usually leave the "prove it" requests alone.
So, depending on the person asking and the reason I'll then decide if its worth my time digging deeper into things with that person so not to waste my time on a pointless argument..(this is all based on my personal historical experience)1 -
Know your audience.3
-
Personally I've learned more from people forwarding me links and studies. But that's me and I can't speak for anyone else. Hard to question conclusions if they are supported by enough peer reviewed clinical study.
If you make a claim, it's not unusual for people who question it to ask for a link. Correct response would be to provide it for them since it's you making the claim and the burden of proof is on you to provide it. And most open minded people will read it. For many, it helps educationally.Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?
sounds like it would be pointless directing you to the 100's of papers & studies on this conducted by the worlds leading exercise scientists. It's all free & in the open/public domain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's all in the public domain so anyone who's serious about learning and not just digging out info that fits their preferred bias can easily find the data. Historically I've found forwarding data on only to prove a point when already met with resistance is futile as the data still usually won't sway the minds of people who already have their minds made up... I've just found it to be an exercise in futility and a waste of time. But if people are open to concepts that are currently foreign to them, they will do the research... just my experience over a long time in this field.
But hold on 2 mins & I'll dig one of the most commonly referred to studies out.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
1 -
Personally I've learned more from people forwarding me links and studies. But that's me and I can't speak for anyone else. Hard to question conclusions if they are supported by enough peer reviewed clinical study.
If you make a claim, it's not unusual for people who question it to ask for a link. Correct response would be to provide it for them since it's you making the claim and the burden of proof is on you to provide it. And most open minded people will read it. For many, it helps educationally.Be me, a body composition expert (on paper & in practice with experience through myself & clients for over 13 years) give free advice MFP forum to be nice & get told how you're wrong. lolI did a strength program during my bulk and added no lean mass, just fat mass, during that period. In the hypertrophy periods before and after the strength program I added lean mass.
You can follow a traditional bodybuilding program and still add weight to the bar. You can also follow a powerlifting program and make little to no progress.
The secret to building muscle is adequate calories and progressive overload, which doesn't necessarily come from adding strength.
yep, progressive overload = getting sronger either through sheer amount of volume which add's to the tonnage and/or go direct to the actual tonnage.. whichever your prefer.
But when comparing the two, all the current data shows that directly adding tonnage via weight over tonnage via volume is vastly superior to adding new tissue, that's now factual on the training science world.
Not suggesting a power lifting routine, just saying that without getting stronger, you will not get bigger as a natural.
EG: if you've progressed from 100kg x 5reps on a squat to 100kg x 7 reps on a squat, that's still classed as getting stronger & adds to the overall tonnage
The other way is going directly via the weight such as from 100kg x5 to 130kg x5
Both are increases in strength, but the latter is now proven to be superior for gaining new lean tissue.
You have a link to this data?
sounds like it would be pointless directing you to the 100's of papers & studies on this conducted by the worlds leading exercise scientists. It's all free & in the open/public domain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
It's all in the public domain so anyone who's serious about learning and not just digging out info that fits their preferred bias can easily find the data. Historically I've found forwarding data on only to prove a point when already met with resistance is futile as the data still usually won't sway the minds of people who already have their minds made up... I've just found it to be an exercise in futility and a waste of time. But if people are open to concepts that are currently foreign to them, they will do the research... just my experience over a long time in this field.
But hold on 2 mins & I'll dig one of the most commonly referred to studies out.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
You would think as a trainer, you'd learn more from being in the field itself.0 -
While I've already seen this link, it's great for others who lurk on the boards to see it. Thanks.For example, one of the most commonly referred to studies published back in 2013 ago separated 33 physically active, resistance-trained men into two groups: (which has been replicated tons & tons of times)
(link to study - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4562558/)
A high-volume, moderate-intensity group that did 4 workouts per week consisting of 4 sets per exercise in the 10 to 12 rep range (70% of 1RM).
A moderate-volume, high-intensity group that did 4 workouts per week consisting of 4 sets per exercise in the 3 to 5 rep range (90% of 1RM).
Both groups did the same exercises (which included the bench press, back squat, deadlift, and seated shoulder press), and both were instructed to maintain their normal eating habits (which was monitored with food diaries).
The result:
After 8 weeks of training, scientists found that the high-intensity group gained significantly more muscle and strength than the high-volume group.
It’s no surprise that the high-intensity group gained more strength, but many people wouldn’t have expected them to gain more muscle as well.
Researchers cite two main reasons for why the heavier training beat out the lighter:
1. Higher amounts of mechanical stress imposed on the muscles.
2. Greater activation of muscle fibers.
And this, in turn, results in a greater adaptation across a larger percentage of the muscle tissue.
My point is, you have to get STRONGER in whatever rep range you'e using. Be it 3-5, 8-10, 12-15 etc etc in order to get bigger.
Lifting the same weight year in year out whilst only increasing your caloric intake will not yield the continuous building of new muscle tissue.. physical progression has to occur (Strength in various different terms, but strength none the less)
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
3 -
Welcome to the club. We require all noobs to bring muffins.
I would probably suggest it might be beneficial to incorporate diet as part of the equation. Because muscle gain is multi-faceted and all components are important. Without diet, you don't have the fuel. But i get the overall premise.4
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