why am i losing muscle mass?
MissSusieQ
Posts: 533 Member
I've been focussing really hard on improving my diet since the start of june, and by pretty much just changing that, I've lost about 8kg (woot!!)
for the first 9 or 10 weeks it was a lovely, happy loss - weight and body fat percentage going down, hydration and muscle mass staying about the same, but the last couple of weeks my body fat loss has slowed, and although I've still lost weight, it's been my muscle mass that's dropped.
I work out 4-5 times per week (1 PT session and 3-4 group sessions mixing cardio and resistance, and maybe a run once per week), and I think my diet's been pretty good, and pretty consistent. I don't really think I've changed anything dramatically in the last couple of weeks.
I don't log my diet on here, since I tend to get a bit obsessive when I do, but I write everything I eat down in a diary, so an average day last week, for example..
breakfast:
porridge made with skim milk, blueberries, and peanut butter,
lunch:
laksa with tofu (125g), lots of veggies and minimal rice noodles,
dinner:
spiralised zucchini with pasta (50g), cheese, basil and chilli
snacks:
carrots, veggie trail mix (sunflower seeds, dried beans, sesame seeds, dried veggie bits etc.)
any ideas where I'm going wrong? not enough food? not enough protien? not working out hard enough? (please don't say that! I've been living with constant DOMS since I started seeing my trainer a few years ago, and if I have to go harder I fear my arms might fall off.) my main diet aims have been to reduce sugar, increase veggies, and try to eat most of my carbs in the morning.
also, I'm a vegetarian, so suggesting I add some chicken to this or some turkey to that are not helpful
for the first 9 or 10 weeks it was a lovely, happy loss - weight and body fat percentage going down, hydration and muscle mass staying about the same, but the last couple of weeks my body fat loss has slowed, and although I've still lost weight, it's been my muscle mass that's dropped.
I work out 4-5 times per week (1 PT session and 3-4 group sessions mixing cardio and resistance, and maybe a run once per week), and I think my diet's been pretty good, and pretty consistent. I don't really think I've changed anything dramatically in the last couple of weeks.
I don't log my diet on here, since I tend to get a bit obsessive when I do, but I write everything I eat down in a diary, so an average day last week, for example..
breakfast:
porridge made with skim milk, blueberries, and peanut butter,
lunch:
laksa with tofu (125g), lots of veggies and minimal rice noodles,
dinner:
spiralised zucchini with pasta (50g), cheese, basil and chilli
snacks:
carrots, veggie trail mix (sunflower seeds, dried beans, sesame seeds, dried veggie bits etc.)
any ideas where I'm going wrong? not enough food? not enough protien? not working out hard enough? (please don't say that! I've been living with constant DOMS since I started seeing my trainer a few years ago, and if I have to go harder I fear my arms might fall off.) my main diet aims have been to reduce sugar, increase veggies, and try to eat most of my carbs in the morning.
also, I'm a vegetarian, so suggesting I add some chicken to this or some turkey to that are not helpful
1
Replies
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First: how are you measuring body fat? If it's a BI scale, you can throw the numbers out the window.10
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You probably need more protien. Since you are vegetarian, can't really help you there I guess. You'll have to figure out what you can eat that has more protien.1
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Why do you think you're losing muscle?
Have you really had DOMS each time you've lifted for years?0 -
I used to be a vegetarian. It is tough to get enough protein. Try adding grains with more protein, like quinoa and more beans. Also, I think many of us lose muscle during the weight loss process. A lot of people are able to add muscle after the initial big losses. You might also try a vegetarian protein shake or bar.1
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Soy milk, tofu, quinoa, legumes and a bit if bread or rice are all sources of protein. No way to know if your deficit of big or small. How much I average about your trending weight app telling you that you lose a week? With novel exercise that you're not used to doing figure about 4000Cal of deficit per lb of loss.
At 1kg a week, unless you are obese with lots and lots of lbs to lose, your deficits are perhaps larger than optimal.
Peanut butter and trail mix are good choices to quickly add some calories into your diet. And at this point it looks like you do need them to be there. If replaced by other items you would be creating a larger deficit which right now does not seem advisable.
Smaller deficits and more protein and progressive overload all help protect lean mass.
Impedance body composition measurements, especially over a period of days or weeks are good for... nothing.1 -
I can agree with some others here, i'd say the main problem is lack of protein. Start tracking your protein intake.1
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EnvisionGains wrote: »I can agree with some others here, i'd say the main problem is lack of protein. Start tracking your protein intake.
I'd agree more with the first response - that the main problem is trying to track LBM/fat mass with a BIA scale. It's only slightly more accurate than throwing darts at a dartboard or rolling dice to determine your bodyfat percentage.6 -
I share others' concern about how you're measuring body fat. My scale "measures" it, but tends to tell me me BF% goes up and down pretty linearly with my weight, even when the weight change is for sure water weight. I wouldn't trust it. If you're getting enough protein, and doing resistance exercise, you should be OK.
But, as a vegetarian myself, I think it's possible that you might be a bit light on protein, for someone who's working out hard, and in a calorie deficit. IMO, some of the vegetarian websites give scientifically questionable advice about what constitutes adequate protein. While losing weight, I strove for .6-.8g of protein per pound of goal weight, and could usually stay at the upper end of that. You might even want a bit more, if you can figure out how to get it.
It looks like you eat dairy, but I don't know about eggs, from what you list. I do eat eggs, but not every day. It is possible to get sufficient protein as a vegetarian, IMO, without eggs (or even without dairy).
You might want to consider looking at a few sample days from your food list & estimating the protein, to see where you are. If you want/need to increase, here are some ideas:- Consider peanut butter powder or defatted peanut flour to replace part of the peanut butter in your oatmeal. I get that you want some healthy fat in there, but you might be able to get a few more grams of protein by replacing part of it with powder, and still get enough fat, but I admit I haven't done the math.
- Greek yogurt can be helpful in a variety of roles.
- If you're still eating pasta, consider chickpea pasta (like Banza brand, as one example) if you want something with similar texture to normal pasta, or edamame or black bean pasta if you can tolerate the very different texture.
- You don't mention much in the way of legumes - beans, peas, edamame, etc. - they can be helpful.
- I don't like protein powder much (just an eating preference), but there are some vegetarian-suitable ones that you could consider.
- Make it a point to choose veggies (that you like) that have some protein, as compared with those that have none. Few have a large amount of protein, and it's typically not complete (in amino acids), but you can get some benefit and it helps the amino acid balance if you eat a varied range of them. There are even a few fruits with a little protein.
- Seitan is an option, if you can eat gluten.
- Think hard about snacks as a way to get protein. Consider crispy chickpeas, Indian puppodums, dry-roasted soybeans, the Greek yogurt, snack-sized cheese, cottage cheese, etc.
Carbs and Fats are cheap. Here's a Guide to getting your PROTEIN's worth. Fiber also...5 -
thanks @AnnPT77 for a great response with a number of ideas beyond the usual protien shake, greek yoghurt, tofu, blah blah. I'll definitely check out the link when I have more time. where would I locate chick pea pasta? truly, thanks.
A number of you have expressed doubt at the accuracy of my body fat/muscle mass measurements, which is fair enough because yes, I'm just using a BI scale.
But, are you really telling me that the numbers are worth absolutely zero? because my way of thinking is that if i'm measuring the same way, at the same time of day, on the same day each week, then even if the actual science of how it gets the numbers is a bit iffy, a trend in those numbers should still be a true like, it might be measuring me the wrong way, but it's measuring me the same wrong way every week.
thoughts on my thoughts welcome (as always), aggro arguments not (as always)
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MissSusieQ wrote: »thanks @AnnPT77 for a great response with a number of ideas beyond the usual protien shake, greek yoghurt, tofu, blah blah. I'll definitely check out the link when I have more time. where would I locate chick pea pasta? truly, thanks.
A number of you have expressed doubt at the accuracy of my body fat/muscle mass measurements, which is fair enough because yes, I'm just using a BI scale.
But, are you really telling me that the numbers are worth absolutely zero? because my way of thinking is that if i'm measuring the same way, at the same time of day, on the same day each week, then even if the actual science of how it gets the numbers is a bit iffy, a trend in those numbers should still be a true like, it might be measuring me the wrong way, but it's measuring me the same wrong way every week.
thoughts on my thoughts welcome (as always), aggro arguments not (as always)
Chickpea pasta: I get it at some local stores, either health food stores, or larger regular grocery stores that stock quasi-health-food-ish things (in the pasta aisle). But you can buy it online. Google "Banza Chickpea Pasta".
Scale: In a long-term gross-trend sense, it might give you some overall direction, but it's really not very reliable.
The amounts of muscle we can realistically add in a short time are quite small. As an older female, it would be an absolute miracle if I were to gain even as much 1 pound of muscle in a month, even if I were lifting super heavy and getting completely optimal amounts of protein, and it's not that much higher for younger women.
If you think about it mathematically, the muscle increase is so slow, it will be lost in the error rate of the scale over any kind of satisfying short term, IMO. Plus it seems like you'd have to convert the muscle % into a "pounds of muscle" value to compare over time, anyway, since the denominator (your weight) keeps changing, so any error in your weight gets rolled into the muscle estimation error as well.
You'll have lots of ways to gauge your progress: You'll be able to tell you're getting stronger (you'll be able to lift more), you'll see changes in your appearance that you can compare to those websites where there are photos of people at various heights/weights/BF%, you'll have measurements, you can take photos - the BF% from your scale is probably not as useful/helpful as some of those.
Just keep doing the work, and eating right, and you'll reach your goals, regardless of any measurement errors. Wishing you success!3 -
MissSusieQ wrote: »thanks @AnnPT77 for a great response with a number of ideas beyond the usual protien shake, greek yoghurt, tofu, blah blah. I'll definitely check out the link when I have more time. where would I locate chick pea pasta? truly, thanks.
A number of you have expressed doubt at the accuracy of my body fat/muscle mass measurements, which is fair enough because yes, I'm just using a BI scale.
But, are you really telling me that the numbers are worth absolutely zero? because my way of thinking is that if i'm measuring the same way, at the same time of day, on the same day each week, then even if the actual science of how it gets the numbers is a bit iffy, a trend in those numbers should still be a true like, it might be measuring me the wrong way, but it's measuring me the same wrong way every week.
thoughts on my thoughts welcome (as always), aggro arguments not (as always)
Here's a great read about it, written by somebody who knows a lot more about it than anybody here: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-4-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-3-and-4-bod-pod-and-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/the-pitfalls-of-bodyfat-measurement-part-4-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/0 -
MissSusieQ wrote: »thanks @AnnPT77 for a great response with a number of ideas beyond the usual protien shake, greek yoghurt, tofu, blah blah. I'll definitely check out the link when I have more time. where would I locate chick pea pasta? truly, thanks.
A number of you have expressed doubt at the accuracy of my body fat/muscle mass measurements, which is fair enough because yes, I'm just using a BI scale.
But, are you really telling me that the numbers are worth absolutely zero? because my way of thinking is that if i'm measuring the same way, at the same time of day, on the same day each week, then even if the actual science of how it gets the numbers is a bit iffy, a trend in those numbers should still be a true like, it might be measuring me the wrong way, but it's measuring me the same wrong way every week.
thoughts on my thoughts welcome (as always), aggro arguments not (as always)
Here's a great read about it, written by somebody who knows a lot more about it than anybody here: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/index.php/free-content/free-content/volume-1-issue-4-the-pitfalls-of-body-fat-measurement-parts-3-and-4-bod-pod-and-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/the-pitfalls-of-bodyfat-measurement-part-4-bioelectrical-impedance-bia/
great article @AnvilHead, though it does leave me wondering what measurements i CAN rely on to demonstrate my improvement! I know you can say 'you'll feel different/the way your clothes fit/yada yada yada', but i like data and i like graphs and i like numbers and you can't graph how good i look in skinny jeans!!0 -
Have you considered going to have a professional DEXA test done?
Those scales (I have one too) that measure body composition are in my opinion are worthless and as for my data output on mine, it is totally not within the realm of reality. 1 -
First: how are you measuring body fat? If it's a BI scale, you can throw the numbers out the window.
Just because you don't know how to use BIA doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had measured 24.5% body fat with BIA and a DEXA scan showed 24.1% body fat. They told me at the clinic it was pretty common for people using BIA to be pretty close to that actual total body fat. You have to use it consistently at about same hydration level to get good results. I also have a scale that measures both through the feet and hands which helps a lot.
Yea, if you use it in a random fashion you don't get great results.0 -
MissSusieQ wrote: »thanks @AnnPT77 for a great response with a number of ideas beyond the usual protien shake, greek yoghurt, tofu, blah blah. I'll definitely check out the link when I have more time. where would I locate chick pea pasta? truly, thanks.
A number of you have expressed doubt at the accuracy of my body fat/muscle mass measurements, which is fair enough because yes, I'm just using a BI scale.
But, are you really telling me that the numbers are worth absolutely zero? because my way of thinking is that if i'm measuring the same way, at the same time of day, on the same day each week, then even if the actual science of how it gets the numbers is a bit iffy, a trend in those numbers should still be a true like, it might be measuring me the wrong way, but it's measuring me the same wrong way every week.
thoughts on my thoughts welcome (as always), aggro arguments not (as always)
I don't know how good of a scale you have, but they can work very well for body fat. The estimates for other values aren't as solid. I just had a DEXA scan two weeks ago. My BIA scale have 24.5% for the total body fat and the DEXA scan came out at 24.1%. I think that is reasonably close. My scale was reading very consistently for me because my hydration was consistent.0 -
Just because you don't know how to use BIA doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had measured 24.5% body fat with BIA and a DEXA scan showed 24.1% body fat. They told me at the clinic it was pretty common for people using BIA to be pretty close to that actual total body fat. You have to use it consistently at about same hydration level to get good results. I also have a scale that measures both through the feet and hands which helps a lot.
Yea, if you use it in a random fashion you don't get great results.
I'm glad the clinic confirmed your bias for you. However, just like 99% of the statements you make, this one is wrong as well.
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Just because you don't know how to use BIA doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had measured 24.5% body fat with BIA and a DEXA scan showed 24.1% body fat. They told me at the clinic it was pretty common for people using BIA to be pretty close to that actual total body fat. You have to use it consistently at about same hydration level to get good results. I also have a scale that measures both through the feet and hands which helps a lot.
Yea, if you use it in a random fashion you don't get great results.
I'm glad the clinic confirmed your bias for you. However, just like 99% of the statements you make, this one is wrong as well.
Wow ... talk about bias.1 -
Facts do make me bias. Yes.6
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Doing skin fold tests with a set of caliper and measuring girths a measuring tape is the simplest (and cheapest way of estimating body fat percentages.
But I guess it depends on why you need to know body fat and muscle mass amounts as it is just a number and only really matters if you are trying to adjust your performance in a particular sport where you are more likely to be successful if you are certain weight and body composition. For an average human being it is a nice to know but no more valuable than mass or BMI.
Other meaningful metrics you might want to track are; strength and power, flexibility, speed and health status.
No idea's about uping your protein but ongoing DOMs would suggest that your body is low on magnesium or you are not giving your body enough recovery time.0 -
Skin fold tests are not very accurate and are difficult to do correctly by yourself. Even if you do a good job they only give an estimate about the fat directly under the skin. That is a big advantage of BIA was it can give a good estimate of total body fat. It is easy to do, but does require consistent hydration to give consistent results. That appears to be too difficult for most people. I would also avoid cheap scales that you just stand on as those only pass a current through the legs.0
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First: how are you measuring body fat? If it's a BI scale, you can throw the numbers out the window.
Just because you don't know how to use BIA doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had measured 24.5% body fat with BIA and a DEXA scan showed 24.1% body fat. They told me at the clinic it was pretty common for people using BIA to be pretty close to that actual total body fat. You have to use it consistently at about same hydration level to get good results. I also have a scale that measures both through the feet and hands which helps a lot.
Yea, if you use it in a random fashion you don't get great results.
Know how I know you didn't read the article I linked?4 -
Skin fold test are about as accurate as BIA which can be effected by how clean your feet are, as well as the other variables. All of the body fat measurement are just variations different types guess work.
It is an over-rated metric for non athletes but seems to be one of the most important metrics in MFP land.1 -
MissSusieQ wrote: »I've been focussing really hard on improving my diet since the start of june, and by pretty much just changing that, I've lost about 8kg (woot!!)
for the first 9 or 10 weeks it was a lovely, happy loss - weight and body fat percentage going down, hydration and muscle mass staying about the same, but the last couple of weeks my body fat loss has slowed, and although I've still lost weight, it's been my muscle mass that's dropped.
I work out 4-5 times per week (1 PT session and 3-4 group sessions mixing cardio and resistance, and maybe a run once per week), and I think my diet's been pretty good, and pretty consistent. I don't really think I've changed anything dramatically in the last couple of weeks.
I don't log my diet on here, since I tend to get a bit obsessive when I do, but I write everything I eat down in a diary, so an average day last week, for example..
breakfast:
porridge made with skim milk, blueberries, and peanut butter,
lunch:
laksa with tofu (125g), lots of veggies and minimal rice noodles,
dinner:
spiralised zucchini with pasta (50g), cheese, basil and chilli
snacks:
carrots, veggie trail mix (sunflower seeds, dried beans, sesame seeds, dried veggie bits etc.)
any ideas where I'm going wrong? not enough food? not enough protien? not working out hard enough? (please don't say that! I've been living with constant DOMS since I started seeing my trainer a few years ago, and if I have to go harder I fear my arms might fall off.) my main diet aims have been to reduce sugar, increase veggies, and try to eat most of my carbs in the morning.
also, I'm a vegetarian, so suggesting I add some chicken to this or some turkey to that are not helpful
Except for initial newbie gains when weight lifting while in a deficit, anybody will lose muscle mass. Since muscle loss is part of the weight loss game, the goal is to preserve what muscle you have.A number of you have expressed doubt at the accuracy of my body fat/muscle mass measurements, which is fair enough because yes, I'm just using a BI scale.
Those scales are dependent upon hydration too, so should be just as a very general guideline if you choose to use one. 0 -
EnvisionGains wrote: »I can agree with some others here, i'd say the main problem is lack of protein. Start tracking your protein intake.
I'd agree more with the first response - that the main problem is trying to track LBM/fat mass with a BIA scale. It's only slightly more accurate than throwing darts at a dartboard or rolling dice to determine your bodyfat percentage.
Yep.
0 -
Not eating enough protein, too high a calorie deficit likely.0
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You probably need more protien. Since you are vegetarian, can't really help you there I guess. You'll have to figure out what you can eat that has more protien.
You definitely need more protein. You can purchase plant-based protein shakes. I would recommend researching it. If you're concerned about muscle mass then I would be logging everything, and try to keep your protein levels up to 1g/lb of your goal weight. Not your current weight.. your goal weight. So if you want to weigh 180 at your goal, go with 160g - 180g of protein a day. My guess is you are eating far far less without meat. I personally can't get behind a vegetarian diet, but you can get the protein just the same; you're just going to have to work at it probably much harder than non-vegetarians.
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MissSusieQ wrote: »thanks @AnnPT77 for a great response with a number of ideas beyond the usual protien shake, greek yoghurt, tofu, blah blah. I'll definitely check out the link when I have more time. where would I locate chick pea pasta? truly, thanks.
A number of you have expressed doubt at the accuracy of my body fat/muscle mass measurements, which is fair enough because yes, I'm just using a BI scale.
But, are you really telling me that the numbers are worth absolutely zero? because my way of thinking is that if i'm measuring the same way, at the same time of day, on the same day each week, then even if the actual science of how it gets the numbers is a bit iffy, a trend in those numbers should still be a true like, it might be measuring me the wrong way, but it's measuring me the same wrong way every week.
thoughts on my thoughts welcome (as always), aggro arguments not (as always)
I don't know how good of a scale you have, but they can work very well for body fat. The estimates for other values aren't as solid. I just had a DEXA scan two weeks ago. My BIA scale have 24.5% for the total body fat and the DEXA scan came out at 24.1%. I think that is reasonably close. My scale was reading very consistently for me because my hydration was consistent.
That's the key right there, which means the scales are not accurate.
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You may need to just accept that your overall results will be less muscle given your diet restrictions."MissSusie wrote:I'm a vegetarian, so suggesting I add some chicken to this or some turkey to that are not helpful
1 -
First: how are you measuring body fat? If it's a BI scale, you can throw the numbers out the window.
Just because you don't know how to use BIA doesn't mean it doesn't work. I had measured 24.5% body fat with BIA and a DEXA scan showed 24.1% body fat. They told me at the clinic it was pretty common for people using BIA to be pretty close to that actual total body fat. You have to use it consistently at about same hydration level to get good results. I also have a scale that measures both through the feet and hands which helps a lot.
Yea, if you use it in a random fashion you don't get great results.
As an electrical engineer, I can easily assure you that BIA measurements are utter garbage.
If you had a 4-point test, maybe. Maybe. Otherwise, no.3 -
Another vote for more legumes and not focusing on your BF measurement from your BI scale.
What does your trainer say about your constant DOMS?0
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