Cardio while bulking? If any, how much?

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Replies

  • RoxieDawn
    RoxieDawn Posts: 15,490 Member
    Op to answer you question, it really is personal preference whether you keep your cardio in with your bulk. As long as you are consistently in a surplus and cardio is NOT interfering with recovery from your workouts and the progressive overload is not being hindered, its ok to do both.

    My running is enjoyment for me, and it kinda keeps me sane or as one mentioned above helps with mood.

    If you are not making gains as planned, think about cutting or dropping cardio.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,141 MFP Moderator
    travisk8s wrote: »
    It depends on how much of a surplus or calories over maintenance you're actually getting and your macros(how much if it is protein/carbs/fats) I recommend 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat && a 500-700 calorie surplus over maintenance. If he replaces the calories burned from cardio via diet and still gets his surplus it won't do a damn thing in terms of fat loss.

    We are not talking thermogenics here- it's calories in calories out.

    I understand more about physiology than you do

    If you browse this forum, you will see how many people struggle to keep up calories. And it can be very difficult to know how many calories are burned with cardio, which may make it more difficult to maintain a consistent surplus. This is extremely true for those who do long distance. And then other considerations of muscle recovery come into play as well.

    Also, % are not a good way to determine macronutrient goals. It should be done based on grams per lb of lean body mass to body weight.



  • Hornsby
    Hornsby Posts: 10,324 Member
    travisk8s wrote: »
    It depends on how much of a surplus or calories over maintenance you're actually getting and your macros(how much if it is protein/carbs/fats) I recommend 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat && a 500-700 calorie surplus over maintenance. If he replaces the calories burned from cardio via diet and still gets his surplus it won't do a damn thing in terms of fat loss.

    We are not talking thermogenics here- it's calories in calories out.

    I understand more about physiology than you do

    This thread is about bulking. Fat loss isn't happening.
  • salisburyalex
    salisburyalex Posts: 35 Member
    Oh wow! Woke up to quite a few replies. I appreciate all of the insight. I'm probably going to end up having to cut some cardio out since I've been doing 30 minutes of steady state before each workout five times a week. I'm having a hard enough time eating the calories to bulk as is so I think a compromise is going to have to be made.
  • jdscrubs32
    jdscrubs32 Posts: 513 Member
    edited October 2016
    Oh wow! Woke up to quite a few replies. I appreciate all of the insight. I'm probably going to end up having to cut some cardio out since I've been doing 30 minutes of steady state before each workout five times a week. I'm having a hard enough time eating the calories to bulk as is so I think a compromise is going to have to be made.

    That is probably the right idea. When I did my first bulk, I had to reduce the amount I ran to one 30 minutes per week so I could gain. Even though I liked running, my objective was to gain weight/muscle.
  • SLLRunner
    SLLRunner Posts: 12,943 Member
    Oh wow! Woke up to quite a few replies. I appreciate all of the insight. I'm probably going to end up having to cut some cardio out since I've been doing 30 minutes of steady state before each workout five times a week. I'm having a hard enough time eating the calories to bulk as is so I think a compromise is going to have to be made.

    Good job, you can do this. ;)
  • travisk8s
    travisk8s Posts: 24 Member

    I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:

    Increases metabolism
    Increases muscle mass
    Increases Vo2 max
    Increases protein synthesis
    Increases fat loss
    Increases testosterone

    Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol

    Best of luck!
  • comptonelizabeth
    comptonelizabeth Posts: 1,698 Member
    jolive7 wrote: »
    travisk8s wrote: »
    The purpose for doing cardio is to improve ur cardiovascular health- what does that have anything to do with bulking or losing weight?

    When did ppl start to associate it with fat loss or keeping lean lol

    There are a lot of people who are only interested in aesthetics, there are so many lean people in my gym who are NOT "fit". To me, that's absolutely crazy!

    I'm not exactly "only interested in aesthetics "but dislike (1)being constantly told I'm too skinny (2)the way I look and feel (it actually hurts to sit on a hard surface )and (3 ) I suffer from a chronic illness that means I sometimes lose a lot of weight and have nothing to fall back on.

    For the time being I'm avoiding too much cardio and just swim or walk briskly 3 times a week,but will increase this when I've reached the weight I'm happy with
  • travisk8s
    travisk8s Posts: 24 Member
    SideSteel wrote: »
    travisk8s wrote: »
    I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:

    Increases metabolism
    Increases muscle mass
    Increases Vo2 max
    Increases protein synthesis
    Increases fat loss
    Increases testosterone

    Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol

    Best of luck!

    Not nearly this black and white.

    HIIT has a strong recovery component and so from a practical standpoint you could make a strong argument that the more HIIT you do, the less resistance training you can do because recovery is finite. Depending on the goal, someone might be better off adding additional resistance training volume instead of HIIT.

    This isn't me saying that HIIT is arbitrarily good or bad -- it's a tool that will cause a specific set of adaptations. Whether or not someone should incorporate it into a routine is goal dependent among other things.

    Additionally, you're claiming that HIIT will increase the loss of fat when in a caloric surplus. Good luck losing fat on a bulk.

    Lean bulk? Eat just enough over your maintenance to build muscle, but not enough to put on fat. Technically over the day and throughout the night your body will be burning fat HOWEVER it will not be as significant as a standard cut. All he needs to do is look up muscular potential to figure out how much he'd be able to gain in a year, and then divide that into the growth potential per day/week. If he goes too high his your calories this won't work but that doesn't sound like an issue for him.

    The best way to lose fat and gain muscle is to recomp. Which means to cycle your calories so on workout days you put yourself in a surplus and on rest days you put yourself in a deficit.
  • travisk8s
    travisk8s Posts: 24 Member
    SideSteel wrote: »
    travisk8s wrote: »
    I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:

    Increases metabolism
    Increases muscle mass
    Increases Vo2 max
    Increases protein synthesis
    Increases fat loss
    Increases testosterone

    Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol

    Best of luck!

    Not nearly this black and white.

    HIIT has a strong recovery component and so from a practical standpoint you could make a strong argument that the more HIIT you do, the less resistance training you can do because recovery is finite. Depending on the goal, someone might be better off adding additional resistance training volume instead of HIIT.

    This isn't me saying that HIIT is arbitrarily good or bad -- it's a tool that will cause a specific set of adaptations. Whether or not someone should incorporate it into a routine is goal dependent among other things.

    Additionally, you're claiming that HIIT will increase the loss of fat when in a caloric surplus. Good luck losing fat on a bulk.

    Lean bulk? Eat just enough over your maintenance to build muscle, but not enough to put on fat. Technically over the day and throughout the night your body will be burning fat HOWEVER it will not be as significant as a standard cut. All he needs to do is look up muscular potential to figure out how much he'd be able to gain in a year, and then divide that into the growth potential per day/week. If he goes too high his your calories this won't work but that doesn't sound like an issue for him.

    The best way to lose fat and gain muscle is to recomp. Which means to cycle your calories so on workout days you put yourself in a surplus and on rest days you put yourself in a deficit.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,069 Member
    travisk8s wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    travisk8s wrote: »
    I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:

    Increases metabolism
    Increases muscle mass
    Increases Vo2 max
    Increases protein synthesis
    Increases fat loss
    Increases testosterone

    Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol

    Best of luck!

    Not nearly this black and white.

    HIIT has a strong recovery component and so from a practical standpoint you could make a strong argument that the more HIIT you do, the less resistance training you can do because recovery is finite. Depending on the goal, someone might be better off adding additional resistance training volume instead of HIIT.

    This isn't me saying that HIIT is arbitrarily good or bad -- it's a tool that will cause a specific set of adaptations. Whether or not someone should incorporate it into a routine is goal dependent among other things.

    Additionally, you're claiming that HIIT will increase the loss of fat when in a caloric surplus. Good luck losing fat on a bulk.

    Lean bulk? Eat just enough over your maintenance to build muscle, but not enough to put on fat. Technically over the day and throughout the night your body will be burning fat HOWEVER it will not be as significant as a standard cut. All he needs to do is look up muscular potential to figure out how much he'd be able to gain in a year, and then divide that into the growth potential per day/week. If he goes too high his your calories this won't work but that doesn't sound like an issue for him.

    The best way to lose fat and gain muscle is to recomp. Which means to cycle your calories so on workout days you put yourself in a surplus and on rest days you put yourself in a deficit.

    That's not how nutrient partitioning works unfortunately, at least in the overwhelming majority of cases. Eating in an excess isn't going to just cause muscle tissue to accumulate without any fat accumulation.


  • travisk8s
    travisk8s Posts: 24 Member
    The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss =)

    The best method is probably to do 20 to 30 min moderate or LISS cardio after weightlifting. The body has already dug deep into glycogen stores and is definitely more likely to burn fat. It's a pretty common method.

    I like using BCAAs for a little added insurance before hopping on the treadmill. Seems to work.The BCAAs aren't a necessity. The nice thing about them is they've been shown to be in the bloodstream within 15 minutes of consumption. Whey, though still pretty fast, isn't as fast as that. If you are on a good high protein diet you will be fine.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,141 MFP Moderator
    edited October 2016
    travisk8s wrote: »
    The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss =)

    The best method is probably to do 20 to 30 min moderate or LISS cardio after weightlifting. The body has already dug deep into glycogen stores and is definitely more likely to burn fat. It's a pretty common method.

    I like using BCAAs for a little added insurance before hopping on the treadmill. Seems to work.The BCAAs aren't a necessity. The nice thing about them is they've been shown to be in the bloodstream within 15 minutes of consumption. Whey, though still pretty fast, isn't as fast as that. If you are on a good high protein diet you will be fine.

    If you have a net positive energy balance, fat gains are inevitable and males can luckily get away with gaining roughly 50/50 for fat/muscle while lean bulking. You cannot gain 100% muscle, regardless of the exercise plan you follow.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,069 Member
    edited October 2016
    travisk8s wrote: »
    The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss =)

    Once again, this is not how things work when you zoom out and look at nutrient partitioning over larger periods of time.

    Just for example, when you look at fasted cardio studies you see an increase in fat oxidation when you train fasted but it DOES NOT lead to greater whole body fat loss.

    You can't look at substrate utilization in a vacuum. Oxidizing more fat during cardiovascular exercise does not at all mean that you lose a greater amount of body fat.


    Here's one example where acute fat oxidation is higher in one treatment group but whole body fat losses are comparable between groups.

    http://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-014-0054-7
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,145 Member
    edited October 2016
    travisk8s wrote: »
    It depends on how much of a surplus or calories over maintenance you're actually getting and your macros(how much if it is protein/carbs/fats) I recommend 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat && a 500-700 calorie surplus over maintenance. If he replaces the calories burned from cardio via diet and still gets his surplus it won't do a damn thing in terms of fat loss.

    We are not talking thermogenics here- it's calories in calories out.

    I understand more about physiology than you do
    ...
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,145 Member
    travisk8s wrote: »
    It depends on how much of a surplus or calories over maintenance you're actually getting and your macros(how much if it is protein/carbs/fats) I recommend 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat && a 500-700 calorie surplus over maintenance. If he replaces the calories burned from cardio via diet and still gets his surplus it won't do a damn thing in terms of fat loss.

    We are not talking thermogenics here- it's calories in calories out.

    I understand more about physiology than you do

    you just said the same thing that the person you are arguing with said...
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,145 Member
    travisk8s wrote: »
    SideSteel wrote: »
    travisk8s wrote: »
    I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:

    Increases metabolism
    Increases muscle mass
    Increases Vo2 max
    Increases protein synthesis
    Increases fat loss
    Increases testosterone

    Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol

    Best of luck!

    Not nearly this black and white.

    HIIT has a strong recovery component and so from a practical standpoint you could make a strong argument that the more HIIT you do, the less resistance training you can do because recovery is finite. Depending on the goal, someone might be better off adding additional resistance training volume instead of HIIT.

    This isn't me saying that HIIT is arbitrarily good or bad -- it's a tool that will cause a specific set of adaptations. Whether or not someone should incorporate it into a routine is goal dependent among other things.

    Additionally, you're claiming that HIIT will increase the loss of fat when in a caloric surplus. Good luck losing fat on a bulk.

    Lean bulk? Eat just enough over your maintenance to build muscle, but not enough to put on fat. Technically over the day and throughout the night your body will be burning fat HOWEVER it will not be as significant as a standard cut. All he needs to do is look up muscular potential to figure out how much he'd be able to gain in a year, and then divide that into the growth potential per day/week. If he goes too high his your calories this won't work but that doesn't sound like an issue for him.

    The best way to lose fat and gain muscle is to recomp. Which means to cycle your calories so on workout days you put yourself in a surplus and on rest days you put yourself in a deficit.

    that is called a recomp...

    and if you are eating 250 calories over maintenance about half of that surplus is going to be fat..
  • Z_I_L_L_A
    Z_I_L_L_A Posts: 2,401 Member
    edited October 2016
    B)