Cardio while bulking? If any, how much?
Replies
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I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:
Increases metabolism
Increases muscle mass
Increases Vo2 max
Increases protein synthesis
Increases fat loss
Increases testosterone
Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol
Best of luck!
Not nearly this black and white.
HIIT has a strong recovery component and so from a practical standpoint you could make a strong argument that the more HIIT you do, the less resistance training you can do because recovery is finite. Depending on the goal, someone might be better off adding additional resistance training volume instead of HIIT.
This isn't me saying that HIIT is arbitrarily good or bad -- it's a tool that will cause a specific set of adaptations. Whether or not someone should incorporate it into a routine is goal dependent among other things.
Additionally, you're claiming that HIIT will increase the loss of fat when in a caloric surplus. Good luck losing fat on a bulk.
Lean bulk? Eat just enough over your maintenance to build muscle, but not enough to put on fat. Technically over the day and throughout the night your body will be burning fat HOWEVER it will not be as significant as a standard cut. All he needs to do is look up muscular potential to figure out how much he'd be able to gain in a year, and then divide that into the growth potential per day/week. If he goes too high his your calories this won't work but that doesn't sound like an issue for him.
The best way to lose fat and gain muscle is to recomp. Which means to cycle your calories so on workout days you put yourself in a surplus and on rest days you put yourself in a deficit.0 -
I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:
Increases metabolism
Increases muscle mass
Increases Vo2 max
Increases protein synthesis
Increases fat loss
Increases testosterone
Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol
Best of luck!
Not nearly this black and white.
HIIT has a strong recovery component and so from a practical standpoint you could make a strong argument that the more HIIT you do, the less resistance training you can do because recovery is finite. Depending on the goal, someone might be better off adding additional resistance training volume instead of HIIT.
This isn't me saying that HIIT is arbitrarily good or bad -- it's a tool that will cause a specific set of adaptations. Whether or not someone should incorporate it into a routine is goal dependent among other things.
Additionally, you're claiming that HIIT will increase the loss of fat when in a caloric surplus. Good luck losing fat on a bulk.
Lean bulk? Eat just enough over your maintenance to build muscle, but not enough to put on fat. Technically over the day and throughout the night your body will be burning fat HOWEVER it will not be as significant as a standard cut. All he needs to do is look up muscular potential to figure out how much he'd be able to gain in a year, and then divide that into the growth potential per day/week. If he goes too high his your calories this won't work but that doesn't sound like an issue for him.
The best way to lose fat and gain muscle is to recomp. Which means to cycle your calories so on workout days you put yourself in a surplus and on rest days you put yourself in a deficit.
That's not how nutrient partitioning works unfortunately, at least in the overwhelming majority of cases. Eating in an excess isn't going to just cause muscle tissue to accumulate without any fat accumulation.
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The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss
The best method is probably to do 20 to 30 min moderate or LISS cardio after weightlifting. The body has already dug deep into glycogen stores and is definitely more likely to burn fat. It's a pretty common method.
I like using BCAAs for a little added insurance before hopping on the treadmill. Seems to work.The BCAAs aren't a necessity. The nice thing about them is they've been shown to be in the bloodstream within 15 minutes of consumption. Whey, though still pretty fast, isn't as fast as that. If you are on a good high protein diet you will be fine.0 -
The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss
The best method is probably to do 20 to 30 min moderate or LISS cardio after weightlifting. The body has already dug deep into glycogen stores and is definitely more likely to burn fat. It's a pretty common method.
I like using BCAAs for a little added insurance before hopping on the treadmill. Seems to work.The BCAAs aren't a necessity. The nice thing about them is they've been shown to be in the bloodstream within 15 minutes of consumption. Whey, though still pretty fast, isn't as fast as that. If you are on a good high protein diet you will be fine.
If you have a net positive energy balance, fat gains are inevitable and males can luckily get away with gaining roughly 50/50 for fat/muscle while lean bulking. You cannot gain 100% muscle, regardless of the exercise plan you follow.1 -
The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss
Once again, this is not how things work when you zoom out and look at nutrient partitioning over larger periods of time.
Just for example, when you look at fasted cardio studies you see an increase in fat oxidation when you train fasted but it DOES NOT lead to greater whole body fat loss.
You can't look at substrate utilization in a vacuum. Oxidizing more fat during cardiovascular exercise does not at all mean that you lose a greater amount of body fat.
Here's one example where acute fat oxidation is higher in one treatment group but whole body fat losses are comparable between groups.
http://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-014-0054-7
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...It depends on how much of a surplus or calories over maintenance you're actually getting and your macros(how much if it is protein/carbs/fats) I recommend 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat && a 500-700 calorie surplus over maintenance. If he replaces the calories burned from cardio via diet and still gets his surplus it won't do a damn thing in terms of fat loss.
We are not talking thermogenics here- it's calories in calories out.
I understand more about physiology than you do0 -
It depends on how much of a surplus or calories over maintenance you're actually getting and your macros(how much if it is protein/carbs/fats) I recommend 40/40/20 protein/carb/fat && a 500-700 calorie surplus over maintenance. If he replaces the calories burned from cardio via diet and still gets his surplus it won't do a damn thing in terms of fat loss.
We are not talking thermogenics here- it's calories in calories out.
I understand more about physiology than you do
you just said the same thing that the person you are arguing with said...3 -
I won't get into the science of doing HIIT while on a bulk but here are some cliffs:
Increases metabolism
Increases muscle mass
Increases Vo2 max
Increases protein synthesis
Increases fat loss
Increases testosterone
Ultimately if you are having hard enough time consuming the required calories then maybe high volume weight training with little rest between sets = your cardio lol
Best of luck!
Not nearly this black and white.
HIIT has a strong recovery component and so from a practical standpoint you could make a strong argument that the more HIIT you do, the less resistance training you can do because recovery is finite. Depending on the goal, someone might be better off adding additional resistance training volume instead of HIIT.
This isn't me saying that HIIT is arbitrarily good or bad -- it's a tool that will cause a specific set of adaptations. Whether or not someone should incorporate it into a routine is goal dependent among other things.
Additionally, you're claiming that HIIT will increase the loss of fat when in a caloric surplus. Good luck losing fat on a bulk.
Lean bulk? Eat just enough over your maintenance to build muscle, but not enough to put on fat. Technically over the day and throughout the night your body will be burning fat HOWEVER it will not be as significant as a standard cut. All he needs to do is look up muscular potential to figure out how much he'd be able to gain in a year, and then divide that into the growth potential per day/week. If he goes too high his your calories this won't work but that doesn't sound like an issue for him.
The best way to lose fat and gain muscle is to recomp. Which means to cycle your calories so on workout days you put yourself in a surplus and on rest days you put yourself in a deficit.
that is called a recomp...
and if you are eating 250 calories over maintenance about half of that surplus is going to be fat..2 -
Wow..glad I just lift. Too much science for me. Fun to read though. It's like a challenge of Nutrition bro science manhood. Carry on brothas.6
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The purpose for doing cardio is to improve ur cardiovascular health- what does that have anything to do with bulking or losing weight?
When did ppl start to associate it with fat loss or keeping lean lol
There are a lot of people who are only interested in aesthetics, there are so many lean people in my gym who are NOT "fit". To me, that's absolutely crazy!
I Agree totally... What's the whole point of looking great if you can't run 5k to get help for a injured friend etc.
As an example; I run a few "Tough Mudders and Spartan races every year and it's always surprising to me how many "fit" looking ppl with their fancy gear on can't even run 3k with out dying...lol0 -
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You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science0
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You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
What....?
Do you have a source (Documentation) for that?
As a regular bloke with a Bsc in both Comp. Sci and Actuarial Math ( I work at a bank)..lol I'd be interested looking at the "Maths" for this.1 -
You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
Been following...
Now I am curious about what this is about? Can you please clarify this????0 -
You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
Umm what? How can one lose body fat and gain body fat concurrently... that really doesnt even make sense.2 -
You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
Are you insinuating thisis because of muscle gain will outweigh the fat gain making the percent the smaller?2 -
You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
Umm what? How can one lose body fat and gain body fat concurrently... that really doesnt even make sense.
Where you are getting confused is bodyfat levels vs bodyfat%. They are not the same...
Back to work I'll explain later!0 -
The more you post, the clearer it is that you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.4
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You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
Umm what? How can one lose body fat and gain body fat concurrently... that really doesnt even make sense.
Where you are getting confused is bodyfat levels vs bodyfat%. They are not the same...
Back to work I'll explain later!
I'm probably missing something here so I'll await your replay. In fairness I am "assuming" that one typically measures "bodyfat" levels using "% - percent" of fat .vs Lean Muscle etc.1 -
The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss
The best method is probably to do 20 to 30 min moderate or LISS cardio after weightlifting. The body has already dug deep into glycogen stores and is definitely more likely to burn fat. It's a pretty common method.
.
Roughly how many calories of glycogen do you think an average person eating over maintenance has stored?
You really aren't making a lot of sense I'm afraid. The weightlifting session will make zero difference to the proportion of fat burned during LISS.
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The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss
The best method is probably to do 20 to 30 min moderate or LISS cardio after weightlifting. The body has already dug deep into glycogen stores and is definitely more likely to burn fat. It's a pretty common method.
.
Roughly how many calories of glycogen do you think an average person eating over maintenance has stored?
You really aren't making a lot of sense I'm afraid. The weightlifting session will make zero difference to the proportion of fat burned during LISS.
And as Sidesteel said, you can't look at substrate utilization in a vacuum. The "fat burning zone" has been proven to be a myth again and again. It's broscience.
Actually, the time the body burns the highest percentage of fat is when at rest. So technically, for the most effective fat burning, one should just sleep all day. Which, of course, completely ignores that fact that you'd also be burning far fewer calories overall - but hey, almost all of them would be from fat!1 -
Anvil_Head wrote: »The body gets it's energy from several sources. If you can manipulate your cardio to oxidize fat, then you are burning fat while bulking without muscle loss
The best method is probably to do 20 to 30 min moderate or LISS cardio after weightlifting. The body has already dug deep into glycogen stores and is definitely more likely to burn fat. It's a pretty common method.
.
Roughly how many calories of glycogen do you think an average person eating over maintenance has stored?
You really aren't making a lot of sense I'm afraid. The weightlifting session will make zero difference to the proportion of fat burned during LISS.
And as Sidesteel said, you can't look at substrate utilization in a vacuum. The "fat burning zone" has been proven to be a myth again and again. It's broscience.
Actually, the time the body burns the highest percentage of fat is when at rest. So technically, for the most effective fat burning, one should just sleep all day. Which, of course, completely ignores that fact that you'd also be burning far fewer calories overall - but hey, almost all of them would be from fat!
Yep totally agree - my 50/50 point of carb/fat usage happens at about 130bpm. Doing a weights session beforehand isn't going to change that.0 -
CoreyColwell wrote: »The purpose for doing cardio is to improve ur cardiovascular health- what does that have anything to do with bulking or losing weight?
When did ppl start to associate it with fat loss or keeping lean lol
There are a lot of people who are only interested in aesthetics, there are so many lean people in my gym who are NOT "fit". To me, that's absolutely crazy!
I Agree totally... What's the whole point of looking great if you can't run 5k to get help for a injured friend etc.
As an example; I run a few "Tough Mudders and Spartan races every year and it's always surprising to me how many "fit" looking ppl with their fancy gear on can't even run 3k with out dying...lol
Yes! I'm with you, to me that would be much more satisfying and makes me feel so much healthier and fit that I can smash out a conditioning session! We run metcon sessions every Saturday and it's amazing how many of my "fit" friends have only come to one1 -
You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
I will take you know nothing for $500, Alex2 -
Whoa. What's going on here? lol4
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You 100% can eat a surplus then target and reduce existing body fat levels. You can reduce your bodyfat% while not losing any fat. In fact (sit own for this one dude) you can actually reduce your bodyfat% while gaining bodyfat levels. Its actually simple maths, not deep mind *kitten* science
Umm what? How can one lose body fat and gain body fat concurrently... that really doesnt even make sense.
Where you are getting confused is bodyfat levels vs bodyfat%. They are not the same...
Back to work I'll explain later!
I assume this means body fat percentage vs fat mass?0 -
Can anyone tell me how I turn off notifications for this thread please?
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@travisk8s never came "back to explain later".. Oh well.
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