Macronutrient Timing
dpr73
Posts: 495 Member
I just recalculated my goal macros for my bulk from 200p, 323c, 76f to 150p, 373c, 76f because I heard that too much protein could harm my help and I seem to have a little bit more "GI activity" at 200p.
However, I usually like to consume protein with each of my (5-6) meals everyday...is it okay for me to not have protein at one of these meals and instead keep it carb heavy (like 60g) instead?
Also, is there any correlation between WHEN I have my macronutrients? Like, I am currently setting aside protein and fats for my evening snack where I have cottage cheese and almond butter...however, can I have say a peanut butter sandwich or something carb and fat heavy in the evening before bed as long as it fits within my allotted macros?
Basically, my point is...do I need to have protein at every feeding? And secondly, does macronutrient timing matter in the end for gaining muscle or just hitting cals and total macros?
However, I usually like to consume protein with each of my (5-6) meals everyday...is it okay for me to not have protein at one of these meals and instead keep it carb heavy (like 60g) instead?
Also, is there any correlation between WHEN I have my macronutrients? Like, I am currently setting aside protein and fats for my evening snack where I have cottage cheese and almond butter...however, can I have say a peanut butter sandwich or something carb and fat heavy in the evening before bed as long as it fits within my allotted macros?
Basically, my point is...do I need to have protein at every feeding? And secondly, does macronutrient timing matter in the end for gaining muscle or just hitting cals and total macros?
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Replies
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Eat what you want when you want within your allotments. Timing was big for a while but has subsequently shown to have minimal effects.
To answer in short order:
Is it okay for me to not have protein at one of these meals and instead keep it carb heavy (like 60g) instead?
Yes.
Can I have say a peanut butter sandwich or something carb and fat heavy in the evening before bed as long as it fits within my allotted macros?
Yes.
Do I need to have protein at every feeding?
No. It may help with satiety but there's no magic to it as long as you're getting the required amount every day.
4 -
Eat what you want when you want within your allotments. Timing was big for a while but has subsequently shown to have minimal effects.
To answer in short order:
Is it okay for me to not have protein at one of these meals and instead keep it carb heavy (like 60g) instead?
Yes.
Can I have say a peanut butter sandwich or something carb and fat heavy in the evening before bed as long as it fits within my allotted macros?
Yes.
Do I need to have protein at every feeding?
No. It may help with satiety but there's no magic to it as long as you're getting the required amount every day.
Thanks for your help! That certainly makes this counting a lot easier...do you know where the literature is that explains that timing isn't important? I'd just like to read it too, I think it may be an interesting read
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Just Google it. Lots of stuff out there:
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-5
http://www.precisionnutrition.com/nutrient-timing0 -
Timing is only important after you have hit your calorie, macronutrient and micronutrient goals; and even then, it generally more applies to those who are really lean and hoping to get that extra 1% out of things. But considering many foods take a good amount of time to digest, total consumption is way more important.2
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i would recommend you spread your protein intake throughout the day, rather than stuff it into a few portions.
This provides much better muscle growth.
Each meal have a minimum of 25-30g of protein to spark protein synthesis.0 -
i would recommend you spread your protein intake throughout the day, rather than stuff it into a few portions.
This provides much better muscle growth.
Each meal have a minimum of 25-30g of protein to spark protein synthesis.
If you are looking to maximize protein synthesis (and this is pending you already have total calories, adequate macro composition and solid micronutrients), then it's a bit more complicated than just consuming 25-30g per meal, because the source of protein would dictate the amount. Ideally, you would be looking to get 3-4g of leucine and some carbs. 25-30g of whey protein should have around 4g of leucine; beef/chicken would required 35-40g; wheat/soy proteins would require 50g.0 -
i would recommend you spread your protein intake throughout the day, rather than stuff it into a few portions.
This provides much better muscle growth.
Each meal have a minimum of 25-30g of protein to spark protein synthesis.
I do that already, but my protein intake is extremely high if I incorporate it into all my meals. But I need to have meals throughout the day to hit my goal
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The major health consideration for extremely high protein diets is potential renal damage ( Kidneys ). Intakes as high as 2g/kg have been clinically shown to be considered safe by the medical community. Higher intake levels are believed to be safe in healthy individuals.
You don't need to eat any specific nutrient in any particular order or time of the day. I do find it easier to hit my targets if I spread it out over all my meals, instead of restricting some meals to only specific nutrients.1 -
So should I worry about how I partition my calories? In other words, on days when I'm very busy is it okay to get my calories in when I have time (that is, with fewer higher calorie meals rather than the several small-ish feedings I normally do)?
I ask because on days like today, I have been extremely busy and have about 1500 calories to fill to hit goal? Does splitting it up into two 750 calorie feedings this evening seem right? Or should I just scratch the day, eat what I can, and start fresh tomorrow?0 -
So should I worry about how I partition my calories? In other words, on days when I'm very busy is it okay to get my calories in when I have time (that is, with fewer higher calorie meals rather than the several small-ish feedings I normally do)?
I ask because on days like today, I have been extremely busy and have about 1500 calories to fill to hit goal? Does splitting it up into two 750 calorie feedings this evening seem right? Or should I just scratch the day, eat what I can, and start fresh tomorrow?
I wouldn't stress it.0 -
i would recommend you spread your protein intake throughout the day, rather than stuff it into a few portions.
This provides much better muscle growth.
Each meal have a minimum of 25-30g of protein to spark protein synthesis.
This isn't actually bro science, at least, but it's not really accepted science either. The theory from a small minority of nutritional researchers, including Dr Layne Norton and his mentor, is that skeletal muscle protein synthesis only starts in adults at around 20g of protein, with 5g being leucine, and peaks at around 30g. Although they have had studies that have provided some evidence my reading of those studies is that there were two or three variables that were confounding, including carb intake, so I don't accept this as strong evidence to support their theory.
There is far more evidence indicating that timing is not important as you have a protein pool in your body that maintains the required leucine and glutamine required. Of course, if you want to time your meals and protein go right ahead, there might be a 1 or 2% advantage, but that's not really enough for anyone but the most high-level athletes to worry about in my books.3 -
So should I worry about how I partition my calories? In other words, on days when I'm very busy is it okay to get my calories in when I have time (that is, with fewer higher calorie meals rather than the several small-ish feedings I normally do)?
I ask because on days like today, I have been extremely busy and have about 1500 calories to fill to hit goal? Does splitting it up into two 750 calorie feedings this evening seem right? Or should I just scratch the day, eat what I can, and start fresh tomorrow?
Unfortunately, you seem to be paying too much attention to bodybuilding culture, which is rather obsessive and always looking for a few small advantages. Just be aware that a lot of those in that culture have disordered eating and you would do well to avoid getting too rigid in your eating habits -- it's not good for you.
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You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you0 -
You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
Why are we making it complicated? Because are giving you feedback. I was merely giving more in depth information based on research I have done. Below is a good video I recently watched which is why I responded the way I did, which is a slight correction of your statement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTF9YR6BU9k
One of the more recent studies (meta-analysis) of protein timing.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-531 -
You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
No, they're not. You are the one making it more complicated. While your advice will work, it's not necessary. Just get the right amount throughout the day - amount per serving is irrelevant.0 -
Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
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Calories > Macronutrients > Timing
Hit your calories, focus on protein and don't worry about when you eat it.2 -
Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
Oh sure, what would a Heisman Trophy winner possibly know about building muscle.
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
Oh sure, what would a Heisman Trophy winner possibly know about building muscle.
He also avoids lifting weights and is a bodyweight-only guy. Clearly the man doesn't know anything.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
Oh sure, what would a Heisman Trophy winner possibly know about building muscle.
He also avoids lifting weights and is a bodyweight-only guy. Clearly the man doesn't know anything.
I remember he was big on that but when he was in football I'm sure he was hitting the weights a lot. Football programs have a large strength conditioning program and I don't think they would let you get away with just calisthenics.
Oh, you missed his bobsled photos lol.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
Oh sure, what would a Heisman Trophy winner possibly know about building muscle.
He also avoids lifting weights and is a bodyweight-only guy. Clearly the man doesn't know anything.
I remember he was big on that but when he was in football I'm sure he was hitting the weights a lot. Football programs have a large strength conditioning program and I don't think they would let you get away with just calisthenics.
Oh, you missed his bobsled photos lol.
Looks like you would be correct on that, at least for the latter part of his pro ball career.
http://www.artofmanliness.com/2016/07/19/the-herschel-walker-workout/0 -
You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
No, they're not. You are the one making it more complicated. While your advice will work, it's not necessary. Just get the right amount throughout the day - amount per serving is irrelevant.
Is it necessary? No, but it is optimal.You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
Why are we making it complicated? Because are giving you feedback. I was merely giving more in depth information based on research I have done. Below is a good video I recently watched which is why I responded the way I did, which is a slight correction of your statement.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTF9YR6BU9k
One of the more recent studies (meta-analysis) of protein timing.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53
You're right, I am making it more complicated. I have done all the research before, I have tried eating multiple ways (1 meal per day/several meals per day), all the stuff you could possibly come up with, I have tried. I have tried intermittent fasting, low carb, carb cycling, keto, carb back loading, carb loading, the list goes on.
I have read countless dieting articles, all the 'scientific' data that says you should do this and that.
So you falsify my personal experience by saying the amount of protein per serving is irrevelant - have you tried this sir? Have you tried actually doing this for months/years, and saw the same or negative results from eating all your protein in 1 serving?
I mean, you poke fun all you want from what I say/my experiences. The only reason why I bother responding so much is because dpr73 is new and wants to learn. I was in his situation awhile back and I had a horrible start because of the very same type of people saying this and saying that, I can understand his confusion and maybe even frustration when he sees all this stuff and doesn't know what actually works and what doesn't. I also realized many people just throw around theories without actually applying it to themselves.
So dpr73, you can spread your meals or have it all in one go.
The difference is muscle growth is better when you feed your body around the clock, but it doesn't mean you will not have gains if you don't do this.
So you don't NEED to have protein at every serving, but it is recommended. Every meal doesn't need to be balanced either, I have some friends who prefer to save their carbs before bed (better sleep), and they still make good gains nor do the get unnecessarily fat.
Sometimes a snack can be just peanut butter and bread, whatever you wanna do.
You just have to play around with the macros/calories to see what really is the most comfortable for you, and something you can sustain for the long term. No results will come if you only do it temporarily, it has to be for a long period of time.0 -
You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
No, they're not. You are the one making it more complicated. While your advice will work, it's not necessary. Just get the right amount throughout the day - amount per serving is irrelevant.
Is it necessary? No, but it is optimal.You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
Why are we making it complicated? Because are giving you feedback. I was merely giving more in depth information based on research I have done. Below is a good video I recently watched which is why I responded the way I did, which is a slight correction of your statement.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTF9YR6BU9k
One of the more recent studies (meta-analysis) of protein timing.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53
You're right, I am making it more complicated. I have done all the research before, I have tried eating multiple ways (1 meal per day/several meals per day), all the stuff you could possibly come up with, I have tried. I have tried intermittent fasting, low carb, carb cycling, keto, carb back loading, carb loading, the list goes on.
I have read countless dieting articles, all the 'scientific' data that says you should do this and that.
So you falsify my personal experience by saying the amount of protein per serving is irrevelant - have you tried this sir? Have you tried actually doing this for months/years, and saw the same or negative results from eating all your protein in 1 serving?
I mean, you poke fun all you want from what I say/my experiences. The only reason why I bother responding so much is because dpr73 is new and wants to learn. I was in his situation awhile back and I had a horrible start because of the very same type of people saying this and saying that, I can understand his confusion and maybe even frustration when he sees all this stuff and doesn't know what actually works and what doesn't. I also realized many people just throw around theories without actually applying it to themselves.
So dpr73, you can spread your meals or have it all in one go.
The difference is muscle growth is better when you feed your body around the clock, but it doesn't mean you will not have gains if you don't do this.
So you don't NEED to have protein at every serving, but it is recommended. Every meal doesn't need to be balanced either, I have some friends who prefer to save their carbs before bed (better sleep), and they still make good gains nor do the get unnecessarily fat.
Sometimes a snack can be just peanut butter and bread, whatever you wanna do.
You just have to play around with the macros/calories to see what really is the most comfortable for you, and something you can sustain for the long term. No results will come if you only do it temporarily, it has to be for a long period of time.
I think you are wandering into a philosophical debate which is not necessary. Nobody is making fun of you or saying you aren't doing this with good intentions and I would highly encourage you to continue to post your experiences. However, you lack the background that many of us have as well as our own experience and we are not posting studies to be mean or to ridicule but rather to educate. Many people come to this forum like you with misconceptions but we all start from a basis of ignorance and think we know far more than we really do. I invite you to consider what Lemon has said not as a slight but as an honest attempt to help you understand better what is really known.
As a side note, I have been lifting for over 30 years and I can guarantee you I've tried a lot more than you and thought I knew what I was doing but didn't. I used to have a ton of supplements in my kitchen and now I have almost nothing and still gaining muscle and strength without stressing over exact macros or timing or exact "clean" foods etc. Relax a bit and enjoy the ride because odds are you won't be in the gym in another decade anyway so why stress?
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Thanks for the reply wheelhouse. You make some interesting assumptions about me, and I cannot reply in any way that will not offend you, so that will be it for me. I do respect your dedication to fitness and dieting.
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Thanks for the reply wheelhouse. You make some interesting assumptions about me, and I cannot reply in any way that will not offend you, so that will be it for me. I do respect your dedication to fitness and dieting.
You are still a very new poster here so I have made a few assumptions based on little information but I do look forward to seeing more of your posts in the future as you do seem to have a decent grounding and have done some research, and although I do disagree with your conclusions I can see how you have made a reasoned decision on your diet and fitness. I wish you continued success in your endeavours.0 -
Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
And then there's the World Record Deadlifting holder (according to the American Drug-Free Powerlifting Federation (ADFPF)), Dr. Nun S. Amen Ra.
He has a whole philosophy on anti-aging, wellness, and fitness based on his principles. One of them being intermittent fasting where he fasts for 23 hours a day and has a feeding window of 1 hour per day. Not only does he only eat one meal a day, but you won't believe this, he claims to eat on average only 1200 calories a day. He's a vegan too. It's absolutely unbelievable.
FYI, I think he has his 1 hour feeding window to coincide around the time of his evening workout routine which means he does believe in nutrient timing. He explains it in the interview which is pretty interesting.0 -
Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
And then there's the World Record Deadlifting holder (according to the American Drug-Free Powerlifting Federation (ADFPF)), Dr. Nun S. Amen Ra.
He has a whole philosophy on anti-aging, wellness, and fitness based on his principles. One of them being intermittent fasting where he fasts for 23 hours a day and has a feeding window of 1 hour per day. Not only does he only eat one meal a day, but you won't believe this, he claims to eat on average only 1200 calories a day. He's a vegan too. It's absolutely unbelievable.
FYI, I think he has his 1 hour feeding window to coincide around the time of his evening workout routine which means he does believe in nutrient timing. He explains it in the interview which is pretty interesting.
Photo shows that drug tested doesn't mean drug-free, gynecomastia is obvious and 3D delts are another sign. I would be very surprised if he wasn't on something although I would also be surprised if Walker was drug-free as well.0 -
Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Herschel walker is my favorite point in these types of threads. He has eaten only one meal a day his entire adult life. Seems to be working well for him. Science suggests that meal timing has a very minor influence on muscle gains.
And then there's the World Record Deadlifting holder (according to the American Drug-Free Powerlifting Federation (ADFPF)), Dr. Nun S. Amen Ra.
He has a whole philosophy on anti-aging, wellness, and fitness based on his principles. One of them being intermittent fasting where he fasts for 23 hours a day and has a feeding window of 1 hour per day. Not only does he only eat one meal a day, but you won't believe this, he claims to eat on average only 1200 calories a day. He's a vegan too. It's absolutely unbelievable.
FYI, I think he has his 1 hour feeding window to coincide around the time of his evening workout routine which means he does believe in nutrient timing. He explains it in the interview which is pretty interesting.
Photo shows that drug tested doesn't mean drug-free, gynecomastia is obvious and 3D delts are another sign. I would be very surprised if he wasn't on something although I would also be surprised if Walker was drug-free as well.
I want to believe. But yeah, can't say for sure...1 -
You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
No, they're not. You are the one making it more complicated. While your advice will work, it's not necessary. Just get the right amount throughout the day - amount per serving is irrelevant.
Is it necessary? No, but it is optimal.You guys are making it so complicated lol.
I'm speaking from my own research + applied it on my body for long term.
Spreading protein intake throughout the day helps with muscle growth for me.
Try it or not, it's up to you
Why are we making it complicated? Because are giving you feedback. I was merely giving more in depth information based on research I have done. Below is a good video I recently watched which is why I responded the way I did, which is a slight correction of your statement.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTF9YR6BU9k
One of the more recent studies (meta-analysis) of protein timing.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1550-2783-10-53
You're right, I am making it more complicated. I have done all the research before, I have tried eating multiple ways (1 meal per day/several meals per day), all the stuff you could possibly come up with, I have tried. I have tried intermittent fasting, low carb, carb cycling, keto, carb back loading, carb loading, the list goes on.
I have read countless dieting articles, all the 'scientific' data that says you should do this and that.
So you falsify my personal experience by saying the amount of protein per serving is irrevelant - have you tried this sir? Have you tried actually doing this for months/years, and saw the same or negative results from eating all your protein in 1 serving?
I mean, you poke fun all you want from what I say/my experiences. The only reason why I bother responding so much is because dpr73 is new and wants to learn. I was in his situation awhile back and I had a horrible start because of the very same type of people saying this and saying that, I can understand his confusion and maybe even frustration when he sees all this stuff and doesn't know what actually works and what doesn't. I also realized many people just throw around theories without actually applying it to themselves.
So dpr73, you can spread your meals or have it all in one go.
The difference is muscle growth is better when you feed your body around the clock, but it doesn't mean you will not have gains if you don't do this.
So you don't NEED to have protein at every serving, but it is recommended. Every meal doesn't need to be balanced either, I have some friends who prefer to save their carbs before bed (better sleep), and they still make good gains nor do the get unnecessarily fat.
Sometimes a snack can be just peanut butter and bread, whatever you wanna do.
You just have to play around with the macros/calories to see what really is the most comfortable for you, and something you can sustain for the long term. No results will come if you only do it temporarily, it has to be for a long period of time.
I am not sure why you are getting upset as I am not attacking you. You made a judgement about us for making things "complicated" in which I responded to you saying the science behind it is a bit more complicated than you convey. I don't know you or your experience, but that literally has no impact on this discussion; experience is anecdotal, science actually tells you how things work. So I was responded to was the information you provided, which is still complicating things because other considerations need to occur first while building muscle. Training & calories trump timing of nutrients. Total caloric composition (macronutrients) is more important. Micronutrients are more important. Supplements are less important.
So if you want to get in a discussion of semantics, and you would like to have a discussion on how to optimize and maximize every ounces of training and results, then anecdotal evidences doesn't really matter, scientific data does. I am fine with spreading meals through the day; in fact, I tend to eat 3 large meals a day as it satiates me and supports my training. But if you are going to spread protein, then you should be aware of the type of protein (as noted by my response and the supporting video) and you should be aware that you should also combine it with carbs since it will spike insulin, activate mTOR and increase protein synthesis.
Below is a picture that Eric Helms promotes.
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I just recalculated my goal macros for my bulk from 200p, 323c, 76f to 150p, 373c, 76f because I heard that too much protein could harm my help and I seem to have a little bit more "GI activity" at 200p.
However, I usually like to consume protein with each of my (5-6) meals everyday...is it okay for me to not have protein at one of these meals and instead keep it carb heavy (like 60g) instead?
Also, is there any correlation between WHEN I have my macronutrients? Like, I am currently setting aside protein and fats for my evening snack where I have cottage cheese and almond butter...however, can I have say a peanut butter sandwich or something carb and fat heavy in the evening before bed as long as it fits within my allotted macros?
Basically, my point is...do I need to have protein at every feeding? And secondly, does macronutrient timing matter in the end for gaining muscle or just hitting cals and total macros?
You don't need protein every single time you eat, but you SHOULD have fast acting protein POST WORKOUT (WHEY) and I personally like the idea of having a slower acting protein (Casein) before bedtime. And just meet your daily required protein at any other time of the day. Carbs at night is fine, from what I've been reading, people used to say that carbs at night promotes fat storage but that's not really true.
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