Push-ups are the devil!
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trigden1991 wrote: »I can't even imagine what a 750lb loaded sled would look like. To get better at a movement, you need to do the movement. Start with incline pressups against a wall (standing and leaning forward). As you progress decrease the angle so that eventually you are doing normal pressups.
Yeah, been doing that a while. Worked from wall to incline (can do a lower bench/steps) to full pushups with being strapped to counter weights. Just can't get the "real thing." I keep seeing these "30 days to perfect pushups" for people who can't do any ... lol - I have been at it 4+ months! Sigh ... more time, more practice, I guess. :-)0 -
You can easily start with incline push ups. Do them on your kitchen counters. Simply lean forward onto your kitchen counter as far as feels comfortable and do as many push ups as you can muster. Do that 3-6 times a week and increase the count as you go. After a few weeks, get a chair and drop the angle down. Work your way back up to the same number you were doing at the elevated angle. You'll find once you do you can easily do 1 or more regular push ups. It's all about developing the right muscle groups.0
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^^^ a smith machine is finally useful too, in this sense. you can do smaller graduations on your way down to the floor, if you have access to one. you can get under it too and do 'inverted' pushups, although i've never gotten around to that.0
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canadianlbs wrote: »^^^ a smith machine is finally useful too, in this sense. you can do smaller graduations on your way down to the floor, if you have access to one. you can get under it too and do 'inverted' pushups, although i've never gotten around to that.
When I started I did the incline push ups, then worked my way down. I also bought a $20 pull up bar (perfect pull up I think it's called) at the local store that hinges/pulls down so you can do inverted rows (inverted push ups) to help you work your way up to pull ups. Both of those things helped me progress to the point that I can do both regular push ups and regular pull ups/chin ups.1 -
trigden1991 wrote: »I can't even imagine what a 750lb loaded sled would look like. To get better at a movement, you need to do the movement. Start with incline pressups against a wall (standing and leaning forward). As you progress decrease the angle so that eventually you are doing normal pressups.
I'd agree. Looked at Rogue who makes pretty decent equipment, their sleds advise a capacity of 450-500 pounds.
http://www.roguefitness.com/conditioning/strength-equipment/sleds
This has an 800 pound capacity:
https://www.fringesport.com/products/onefitwonder-commercial-prowler-sled
Still can't see somebody that can push 750 pounds not being able to do a single pushup. If the OP is really pushing this much weight, even though much of the work is the legs, upper body strength is still needed to move that much weight.
I think she must have some sort of movement restriction.0 -
buffalogal42 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I can't even imagine what a 750lb loaded sled would look like. To get better at a movement, you need to do the movement. Start with incline pressups against a wall (standing and leaning forward). As you progress decrease the angle so that eventually you are doing normal pressups.
Yeah, been doing that a while. Worked from wall to incline (can do a lower bench/steps) to full pushups with being strapped to counter weights. Just can't get the "real thing." I keep seeing these "30 days to perfect pushups" for people who can't do any ... lol - I have been at it 4+ months! Sigh ... more time, more practice, I guess. :-)
I'm wondering if there's a certain part of the "real thing" you could pinpoint as the sticking point. I'm guessing you want a full-range, chest-to-the-floor pushup. Can you do partial rep pushups on the floor (ie just the top half)? How far down can you get before you're unable to push back up? Are you doing full range of motion on your inclines, chest touching the step/bench?
If you're like most people, you're weakest at the bottom, when your muscles are stretched and have the least leverage. (But then I don't understand why your trainer is having you do lockouts
) If you can do partial reps on the floor, I would try isometrics and negatives. Basically, lower yourself slowly and/or hover at your sticking points for as long as you can. 0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I can't even imagine what a 750lb loaded sled would look like. To get better at a movement, you need to do the movement. Start with incline pressups against a wall (standing and leaning forward). As you progress decrease the angle so that eventually you are doing normal pressups.
I'd agree. Looked at Rogue who makes pretty decent equipment, their sleds advise a capacity of 450-500 pounds.
http://www.roguefitness.com/conditioning/strength-equipment/sleds
This has an 800 pound capacity:
https://www.fringesport.com/products/onefitwonder-commercial-prowler-sled
Still can't see somebody that can push 750 pounds not being able to do a single pushup. If the OP is really pushing this much weight, even though much of the work is the legs, upper body strength is still needed to move that much weight.
I think she must have some sort of movement restriction.
a huge factor in sled pushing is what kinda surface. I imagine she's pushing it on a slick carpet and not gritty asphalt.
OP. start bench pressing, and dumbbell pressing. You need to build your upper body. Do tricep work, pullups, lats, and also core exercises. did you ever do a plank with your hands on a scale, so you can see how much weight is is you are dealing with when doing a pushup?1 -
If the OP is in a calorie deficit and started with no muscle to speak of, 4+ months and still not being able to progress to full blown push ups could be understandable. Some gain is understandable but I didn't make good strides in strength until I hit maintenance or sometimes above it. Just a thought.1
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I struggle with them too. I found a neat video on YouTube about how to work up to them, starting with wall pushups and progressing to slightly declined and eventually flat on the floor.
https://youtu.be/pXmIpOp9w0s 1 -
Packerjohn wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I can't even imagine what a 750lb loaded sled would look like. To get better at a movement, you need to do the movement. Start with incline pressups against a wall (standing and leaning forward). As you progress decrease the angle so that eventually you are doing normal pressups.
I'd agree. Looked at Rogue who makes pretty decent equipment, their sleds advise a capacity of 450-500 pounds.
http://www.roguefitness.com/conditioning/strength-equipment/sleds
This has an 800 pound capacity:
https://www.fringesport.com/products/onefitwonder-commercial-prowler-sled
Still can't see somebody that can push 750 pounds not being able to do a single pushup. If the OP is really pushing this much weight, even though much of the work is the legs, upper body strength is still needed to move that much weight.
I think she must have some sort of movement restriction.
The sleds at my gym hold a LOT. My hubby regularly pushes 1000 lbs and the men's record is a little over 1400 lbs. Lots of 45lb plates on all the posts.
And no movement restriction that I know of or that my trainer has pointed out. Apparently just significantly stronger below the waist than above!0 -
Packerjohn wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »I can't even imagine what a 750lb loaded sled would look like. To get better at a movement, you need to do the movement. Start with incline pressups against a wall (standing and leaning forward). As you progress decrease the angle so that eventually you are doing normal pressups.
I'd agree. Looked at Rogue who makes pretty decent equipment, their sleds advise a capacity of 450-500 pounds.
http://www.roguefitness.com/conditioning/strength-equipment/sleds
This has an 800 pound capacity:
https://www.fringesport.com/products/onefitwonder-commercial-prowler-sled
Still can't see somebody that can push 750 pounds not being able to do a single pushup. If the OP is really pushing this much weight, even though much of the work is the legs, upper body strength is still needed to move that much weight.
I think she must have some sort of movement restriction.
a huge factor in sled pushing is what kinda surface. I imagine she's pushing it on a slick carpet and not gritty asphalt.
OP. start bench pressing, and dumbbell pressing. You need to build your upper body. Do tricep work, pullups, lats, and also core exercises. did you ever do a plank with your hands on a scale, so you can see how much weight is is you are dealing with when doing a pushup?
It's kind of ... AstroTurf? (That we push the sled on). I guess I don't know what else people push one on!
Never tried the scale plank but I will. And thanks - yes, I guess I need to keep working my upper body. A lot of my non-trainer workouts tend to be lower body focused, probably because I feel more successful!0 -
Spliner1969 wrote: »If the OP is in a calorie deficit and started with no muscle to speak of, 4+ months and still not being able to progress to full blown push ups could be understandable. Some gain is understandable but I didn't make good strides in strength until I hit maintenance or sometimes above it. Just a thought.
Yes, deficit. And started about as wimpy as they come in the upper body department!
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MelanieCN77 wrote: »I struggle with them too. I found a neat video on YouTube about how to work up to them, starting with wall pushups and progressing to slightly declined and eventually flat on the floor.https://youtu.be/pXmIpOp9w0s
Cool - thanks!
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I think maybe I have my moment of clarity. Lol
I appreciate all the comments. I am being upfront about what I can/can't do because I set a goal of being able to do push-ups before I turn 40 in June (and to climb the rope which I got pretty quickly once I started trying). I think maybe I just need more specific work on them than I am doing. I work out with my trainer 2x week, once with the 100 push-up thing and general strength and the other time on general upper body/core, but my other workouts during the week (3-4 depending on) are mostly lower body/total body classes (which sometimes include incline push-ups but not always) or sometimes cardio. I know losing weight overall will help with push-ups ... but I guess I need to work more push-ups in (variations) than I am doing now. I thought I was doing enough but maybe not. And keep at 'em!2 -
buffalogal42 wrote: »Yes, deficit. And started about as wimpy as they come in the upper body department!
Then honestly I would just keep doing what you're doing. If you're having trouble progressing past a certain point, simply stay at that level for a while longer. In a deficit it's tough (not impossible like some would like you to believe, just harder) to gain muscle. They call it "newbie gains" sometimes, where you can gain muscle at first but then it gets progressively harder. My understanding is that the reason for this is that the extra calories your body needs for muscle isn't coming from your diet, it's coming from your fat stores. Once those fat stores deplete it gets harder and harder to build muscle without a surplus of calories. There's some truth to it if you look at it in that way. However, if you still have ample fat stores, you should be able to gain strength/muscle, but like I said it's going to go slower and slower. Try decreasing your deficit closer (not all the way) to your maintenance level. So if you're sitting at a 1 lb a week loss now, drop it to .5 and keep up the same level of exercise. You should be able to gain a little strength.
Good luck!1 -
Congratulations on the weight loss!
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Spliner1969 wrote: »My understanding is that the reason for this is that the extra calories your body needs for muscle isn't coming from your diet, it's coming from your fat stores. Once those fat stores deplete it gets harder and harder to build muscle without a surplus of calories.
it's not quite like that. muscle uses calories, which it can get either from fat or from breaking down muscle tissue. but it isn't built by them, if that makes sense. that would be like using gasoline to build a bigger gas tank. actual new tissue is built out of protein. no protein, no new fibres and/or not enough fibre repair to keep up.
idk about the 'can't grow muscle in deficit' debate. my early experience was that you CAN get stronger even without building muscle, but 'getting stronger' isn't absolutely 1::1 with 'building muscle'. you also get adaptations like better firing mechanisms in the nervous system and more recruitment of the muscle fibres you already have. for me, i do know i reached a point where i stopped experimenting with that and just started to eat like a boss because i wasn't continuing to get strong at a rate that satisfied my ambitions in that area. and now i'm slowly trying to winch my weight back down but idk what i'm taking in since i quit logging a long time ago. so i never tested 'gain in a deficit' out.
minor derail, but my two cents anyway.
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Body weight exercises like pushup and pullups being difficult is do to the strength vs weight ratio. You either need more upper body strength or less body weight to move around. Try focusing on your diet and continued weight loss since that goes a lot quicker than gaining an equivalent amount of strength. You've been making really good progress so just keep it up and it will happen.1
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buffalogal42 wrote: »I appreciate all the comments. I am being upfront about what I can/can't do because I set a goal of being able to do push-ups before I turn 40 in June
curious if you ever mentioned how your bench press is doing. do you struggle with that?
not that i'm a diagnostician, and i'm blind leading the blind here anyway since i can't do pushups either. but i do see a definite correlation in my case. i can't control the movement in my left shoulder as well as the right, and as soon as my pecs get into a movement that becomes clear on the left side. i think of my upper back muscles as a kind of platform the force in my pecs 'braces' against to get leverage. i find i really have to keep my working weights within the range defined by that limitation, or i just start to wave all over the place on that side.
i've been trying the inclined-pushup progression outlined in that clip, and my other big thing is bracing like a boss through my upper abs. can't do that, it's not going to happen, but if i really focus on making the whole thing feel like it's all about my solar plexus things seem to improve.
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canadianlbs wrote: »i'm trying. i really am . . . i have one shoulder that always wants to go rogue when i bench, and i feel like if i could just learn to control it through some kind of pushup progression, and then flip that whole feel upside down, i'd be good.
but geez. i can bench 80 pounds for 5 reps and i weigh 135 or so atm. you'd think knee pushups would be do-able, right? not really.
Pushups are not simply an inverted bench press they are a completely different exercise. Bench press is an open chain movement with a highly restricted range of motion that is almost completely stressing the chest, shoulders and triceps while pushups are a closed chain movement that engages the core, back and legs as well. It's a much harder movement.0 -
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In a book I used to read a lot they used a progression chart for how to get you up to not only a full body push up, but a one handed one and a handstand push up. The first began with you standing in front of a wall and simulating the push up posture using high reps and concentrating on engaging the muscles. After the wall push up, it moved to incline push up. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/265430971764322036/ this has a picture of the full progression chart. Maybe it can help you
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Wheelhouse15 wrote: »Pushups are not simply an inverted bench press they are a completely different exercise. Bench press is an open chain movement with a highly restricted range of motion that is almost completely stressing the chest, shoulders and triceps while pushups are a closed chain movement that engages the core, back and legs as well. It's a much harder movement.
i've actually been taught to bench in a closed chain as well, starting with the feet on the floor and terminating in the hands. so i guess we have different techniques with that. my point was more specific to my own personal struggles to keep a stable 'shelf' through the upper back and shoulderblades, so i can isolate the actual movement just into my arms and keep my left one from waving all over the place. the component i struggle with does translate into both the movements.1 -
canadianlbs wrote: »Spliner1969 wrote: »My understanding is that the reason for this is that the extra calories your body needs for muscle isn't coming from your diet, it's coming from your fat stores. Once those fat stores deplete it gets harder and harder to build muscle without a surplus of calories.
it's not quite like that. muscle uses calories, which it can get either from fat or from breaking down muscle tissue. but it isn't built by them, if that makes sense. that would be like using gasoline to build a bigger gas tank. actual new tissue is built out of protein. no protein, no new fibres and/or not enough fibre repair to keep up.
So, at the same time (last six months of my dieting anyway) I doubled up my protein intake (up to 1g/lb of lean body mass or more) from what MFP was suggesting, but kept my deficit. The fat loss doubled and I was able to build some muscle I never had before. So what you're saying makes sense to me. I was still in a deficit but was able to build, likely because of the extra protein, but the deficit helped trim off the fat? Once I hit my goal the same thing at maintenance (same protein level) seems to let me build very slowly, just no huge gains.
I'd also agree with other posters, as the body weight came down and strength went up push ups became much easier. I can also do chin ups now (well, up to 10) but pull ups are still much harder so I have more work to do. To compare with the OP it probably took me six months or better to be able to do 10 push ups, and I started with pretty much nothing as well.2 -
Spliner1969 wrote: »I was still in a deficit but was able to build, likely because of the extra protein, but the deficit helped trim off the fat?
i guess? taht's the way i'd explain it to myself too, but i'd just be making layman guesses. the opinion seems to be that everyone's body has an inbuilt level of 'genetic potential' - that's like the amount of potential strength you just get born with. so reaching that level tends to go fairly fast, which is why linear-progression programmes like sl and starting strength make good entry points for a newbie.
once you reach that natural genetic threshold though, you're now trying to push your body past what it came wired to do. it's like trying to grow taller once you're already as tall as you're 'going' to get [kind of. not literally]. so that's why progress slows and many people shift to a different programme like wendler which uses a different technique to try and keep the adaptive process moving.
^^^ i'm just paraphrasing what i've picked up, with all that.
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improving strength and building muscle are two different things.0
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FWIW, my BP has really taken off since I started to do pushups (along w/dips and pullups) daily in the past 3 months.
I lost 33 lbs from 196 to 163 in the past 6 months and have been doing linear progression w/the Big Four w/increasing strength in all 4 lifts over that time period.
3 months ago, I was kinda stuck at 165/170# in the BP and 95/100# in the OHP but since starting my daily pushups+ routine, my 1RM in the BP has gone up to 205 and up to 125 in the OHP and they haven't stalled again yet.
Of course, they will stall again (as my DL and SQT have at 300 and 240 respectively) but I believe that doing my pushups+ routine has been the main reason for my recent increases in the BP and OHP. So, I highly recommend doing pushups as a useful accessory exercise.1 -
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Thanks for the video - it always helps me to see what people mean. I have to think very hard about keeping my gluteus and core tight. I was talking to my trainer tonight (after doing my 100 strapped in push-ups at 40lbs counter-weight, which was a struggle) ... he thinks just more time, repetition and continuing to lose weight and beef up some more upper body strength. He also gave me more planks and incline push-up sets to keep working on. So ... I guess we'll see what the next 60 days brings!1
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