Losing Vanity Weight... HELP

24

Replies

  • Nikki10129
    Nikki10129 Posts: 292 Member
    edited December 2016
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    xmichaelyx wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    My maintenance is 2491 calories

    My maintenance is lower than that, and I'm a 6' tall, 180-pound guy.

    Are you weighing all your food, or guesstimating portion sizes? Because if you were really eating what you claim to be eating, you'd absolutely be losing weight.

    I think most people here are hung up on the fact that you're 20 and seem to be freaking out, which implies a potential eating disorder. There's nothing wrong with your weight loss goal (130s is fine for your height), you just need to do a better job of counting calories.

    I just got my maintenance from putting my height, weight, and activity level on a website from google. I know it's not accurate as I would blow up on that!
    I am ABSOLUTELY not eating more than I say I am eating. I measure everything and then round up further. My chicken may be off day to day, but I make one pound at a time so it definitely averages out over the course of the few days I eat the chicken. Everything else- sweet potatoes, rice, cereal, veggies- I measure with cups. Even yogurt I measure with measuring cups every morning- my roommates all think I'm crazy. But I want to make sure I can accurately log!
    I'm not naive or making anything up. I really never ever eat over 1600 except in a case like last week where I made a mistake. I'm so frustrated and know it should not be this hard... my roommates eat like crap it's disgusting and many of them are thinner than me. It's so not fair for my age I should look great without trying this hard! It has consumed my life and I am still not happy.

    If you're using measuring cups you're not accurately weighing your food-use a food scale set to grams.

    this! watch the videos on here about measuring cups VS weighing (maybe someone could post the link?) HUGE differences between the two!

    I guess I'm just confused about how there would be a huge difference? If I eat a bag of sweet peas over two days, does it really matter if I eat 82 calories one day and 78 the next cause it was a little off?
    If I buy two pounds of sweet potatoes and cook them and eat it over four days, even if I don't split it up in four equal parts I am eating two pounds of sweet potato? If a bag of brown rice and quinoa is 460 calories and I eat it over four days.. 115 calories a day will be about right and average out in the end?

    How big are your bags of quinoa and rice O.o Veggies, I wouldn't worry about so much since most are relatively low in calories. But things like quinoa and rice, unless your buying single serving size bags they aren't 460 calories a bag. Quinoa was honestly a huge one for me to see when I actually started weighing vs measuring, it has a lot of calories for some relatively small serving sizes.

    Also a note with the food scale, it doesn't sound like your roommates are freaking out, it sounds like they're worried about you. I do think you should take a bit of a step back from all of this and work on your mental health. The fact that you want to keep track of food shouldn't be a red flag for any roommate, I know mine wasn't phased when I bought and started using a food scale, but they obviously are seeing other things that they find concerning as well.
  • Sharon_C
    Sharon_C Posts: 2,132 Member
    queenliz99 wrote: »
    Toss the body weight scale, toss it far!

    I agree with this 1,000,000 percent :D
  • sfaust2196
    sfaust2196 Posts: 30 Member
    Nikki10129 wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    xmichaelyx wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    My maintenance is 2491 calories

    My maintenance is lower than that, and I'm a 6' tall, 180-pound guy.

    Are you weighing all your food, or guesstimating portion sizes? Because if you were really eating what you claim to be eating, you'd absolutely be losing weight.

    I think most people here are hung up on the fact that you're 20 and seem to be freaking out, which implies a potential eating disorder. There's nothing wrong with your weight loss goal (130s is fine for your height), you just need to do a better job of counting calories.

    I just got my maintenance from putting my height, weight, and activity level on a website from google. I know it's not accurate as I would blow up on that!
    I am ABSOLUTELY not eating more than I say I am eating. I measure everything and then round up further. My chicken may be off day to day, but I make one pound at a time so it definitely averages out over the course of the few days I eat the chicken. Everything else- sweet potatoes, rice, cereal, veggies- I measure with cups. Even yogurt I measure with measuring cups every morning- my roommates all think I'm crazy. But I want to make sure I can accurately log!
    I'm not naive or making anything up. I really never ever eat over 1600 except in a case like last week where I made a mistake. I'm so frustrated and know it should not be this hard... my roommates eat like crap it's disgusting and many of them are thinner than me. It's so not fair for my age I should look great without trying this hard! It has consumed my life and I am still not happy.

    If you're using measuring cups you're not accurately weighing your food-use a food scale set to grams.

    this! watch the videos on here about measuring cups VS weighing (maybe someone could post the link?) HUGE differences between the two!

    I guess I'm just confused about how there would be a huge difference? If I eat a bag of sweet peas over two days, does it really matter if I eat 82 calories one day and 78 the next cause it was a little off?
    If I buy two pounds of sweet potatoes and cook them and eat it over four days, even if I don't split it up in four equal parts I am eating two pounds of sweet potato? If a bag of brown rice and quinoa is 460 calories and I eat it over four days.. 115 calories a day will be about right and average out in the end?

    How big are your bags of quinoa and rice O.o Veggies, I wouldn't worry about so much since most are relatively low in calories. But things like quinoa and rice, unless your buying single serving size bags they aren't 460 calories a bag. Quinoa was honestly a huge one for me to see when I actually started weighing vs measuring, it has a lot of calories for some relatively small serving sizes.

    Also a note with the food scale, it doesn't sound like your roommates are freaking out, it sounds like they're worried about you. I do think you should take a bit of a step back from all of this and work on your mental health. The fact that you want to keep track of food shouldn't be a red flag for any roommate, I know mine wasn't phased when I bought and started using a food scale, but they obviously are seeing other things that they find concerning as well.
    Nikki10129 wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    xmichaelyx wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    My maintenance is 2491 calories

    My maintenance is lower than that, and I'm a 6' tall, 180-pound guy.

    Are you weighing all your food, or guesstimating portion sizes? Because if you were really eating what you claim to be eating, you'd absolutely be losing weight.

    I think most people here are hung up on the fact that you're 20 and seem to be freaking out, which implies a potential eating disorder. There's nothing wrong with your weight loss goal (130s is fine for your height), you just need to do a better job of counting calories.

    I just got my maintenance from putting my height, weight, and activity level on a website from google. I know it's not accurate as I would blow up on that!
    I am ABSOLUTELY not eating more than I say I am eating. I measure everything and then round up further. My chicken may be off day to day, but I make one pound at a time so it definitely averages out over the course of the few days I eat the chicken. Everything else- sweet potatoes, rice, cereal, veggies- I measure with cups. Even yogurt I measure with measuring cups every morning- my roommates all think I'm crazy. But I want to make sure I can accurately log!
    I'm not naive or making anything up. I really never ever eat over 1600 except in a case like last week where I made a mistake. I'm so frustrated and know it should not be this hard... my roommates eat like crap it's disgusting and many of them are thinner than me. It's so not fair for my age I should look great without trying this hard! It has consumed my life and I am still not happy.

    If you're using measuring cups you're not accurately weighing your food-use a food scale set to grams.

    this! watch the videos on here about measuring cups VS weighing (maybe someone could post the link?) HUGE differences between the two!

    I guess I'm just confused about how there would be a huge difference? If I eat a bag of sweet peas over two days, does it really matter if I eat 82 calories one day and 78 the next cause it was a little off?
    If I buy two pounds of sweet potatoes and cook them and eat it over four days, even if I don't split it up in four equal parts I am eating two pounds of sweet potato? If a bag of brown rice and quinoa is 460 calories and I eat it over four days.. 115 calories a day will be about right and average out in the end?

    How big are your bags of quinoa and rice O.o Veggies, I wouldn't worry about so much since most are relatively low in calories. But things like quinoa and rice, unless your buying single serving size bags they aren't 460 calories a bag. Quinoa was honestly a huge one for me to see when I actually started weighing vs measuring, it has a lot of calories for some relatively small serving sizes.

    Also a note with the food scale, it doesn't sound like your roommates are freaking out, it sounds like they're worried about you. I do think you should take a bit of a step back from all of this and work on your mental health. The fact that you want to keep track of food shouldn't be a red flag for any roommate, I know mine wasn't phased when I bought and started using a food scale, but they obviously are seeing other things that they find concerning as well.

    Seeds of change, 2 serving bags. Very small. Says "460" right on the bag.
  • crzycatlady1
    crzycatlady1 Posts: 1,930 Member
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    Thanks for the help! My metabolism is messed up because I lost weight quickly at 1200 cals a day with exercise. I also have hormonal imbalances, insulin resistance, possible PCOS, reasons for not getting my period.
    I would LOVE a food scale but my roommates would freak out. They already reported me to the campus nutritionist and now I have to go to therapy every week. A food scale is just not possible in my situation:( I wish it was.
    I guess recomp seems to be the way to go I'm just so clueless. Thanks..

    OP do you have a history with EDs by chance? Somethings 'off' here.....
  • sfaust2196
    sfaust2196 Posts: 30 Member
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    Thanks for the help! My metabolism is messed up because I lost weight quickly at 1200 cals a day with exercise. I also have hormonal imbalances, insulin resistance, possible PCOS, reasons for not getting my period.
    I would LOVE a food scale but my roommates would freak out. They already reported me to the campus nutritionist and now I have to go to therapy every week. A food scale is just not possible in my situation:( I wish it was.
    I guess recomp seems to be the way to go I'm just so clueless. Thanks..

    OP do you have a history with EDs by chance? Somethings 'off' here.....

    NO! My friends and family and nutritionist just think I'm getting one. My best friend was anorexic in high school and trust me, I'm NOT! Yes, I obsess about it but they just don't understand! I put so much work into this and it's frustrating to not see results! I feel like I worked so hard I should look how I want to look and I just don't. They think I look "great" but they don't see the cellulite and rolls that I do. I just want to be happy about my body and it isn't cooperating. I'm terrified of increasing anything because I don't want to gain weight and have all my hard work be for nothing:(
  • Muscleflex79
    Muscleflex79 Posts: 1,917 Member
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    xmichaelyx wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    My maintenance is 2491 calories

    My maintenance is lower than that, and I'm a 6' tall, 180-pound guy.

    Are you weighing all your food, or guesstimating portion sizes? Because if you were really eating what you claim to be eating, you'd absolutely be losing weight.

    I think most people here are hung up on the fact that you're 20 and seem to be freaking out, which implies a potential eating disorder. There's nothing wrong with your weight loss goal (130s is fine for your height), you just need to do a better job of counting calories.

    I just got my maintenance from putting my height, weight, and activity level on a website from google. I know it's not accurate as I would blow up on that!
    I am ABSOLUTELY not eating more than I say I am eating. I measure everything and then round up further. My chicken may be off day to day, but I make one pound at a time so it definitely averages out over the course of the few days I eat the chicken. Everything else- sweet potatoes, rice, cereal, veggies- I measure with cups. Even yogurt I measure with measuring cups every morning- my roommates all think I'm crazy. But I want to make sure I can accurately log!
    I'm not naive or making anything up. I really never ever eat over 1600 except in a case like last week where I made a mistake. I'm so frustrated and know it should not be this hard... my roommates eat like crap it's disgusting and many of them are thinner than me. It's so not fair for my age I should look great without trying this hard! It has consumed my life and I am still not happy.

    If you're using measuring cups you're not accurately weighing your food-use a food scale set to grams.

    this! watch the videos on here about measuring cups VS weighing (maybe someone could post the link?) HUGE differences between the two!

    I guess I'm just confused about how there would be a huge difference? If I eat a bag of sweet peas over two days, does it really matter if I eat 82 calories one day and 78 the next cause it was a little off?
    If I buy two pounds of sweet potatoes and cook them and eat it over four days, even if I don't split it up in four equal parts I am eating two pounds of sweet potato? If a bag of brown rice and quinoa is 460 calories and I eat it over four days.. 115 calories a day will be about right and average out in the end?

    this just proves you really do need a scale to SEE the difference! just because a package claims something is a certain weight doesn't mean it is. There really are huge differences between cups and actually weighing something. I can never find the videos when I need them - someone help by posting them please!?
  • sardelsa
    sardelsa Posts: 9,812 Member
    Nikki10129 wrote: »
    Losing another 10 lbs isn't going to suddenly make you love yourself. Plenty of people reach goal weight thinking that's what they needed to be happy with their appearance only to find that it doesn't make them feel the way they thought it would, they STILL have to spend time changing their perspective on their bodies. You aren't going to wake up in the 130's and suddenly be happy with your body if you aren't happy with it now.

    ^This is spot on.
    OP I think everyone has issues with their bodies and sometimes more weight loss is not the answer. I learned this a few years ago when I wasn't happy, kept losing weight and just did not like what I ended up with. So I worked on body composition instead. I now have more confidence and I am so happy with my progress. I don't have a goal weight anymore and don't worry about fluctuations or gaining weight (which I am actually trying to do right now).

    Maybe time to take a step back and focus on healthy habits and less obsessing if you can.
  • DaisukeYuki
    DaisukeYuki Posts: 8 Member
    If you're doing what you're doing and it isn't working then it's time to try something else.

    I'd agree with the sentiment of ignoring the scales, eating at maintenance and stepping up on exercise/ strength training. I did, it's a lot less draining physically/ mentally and my body looks all the better for it.

    Up to you, of course. After torturing myself with crash dieting, over exercising and being miserable I chose to educate myself and focus on being healthy. A happy and content inside reflects and shows on the outside.
  • psuLemon
    psuLemon Posts: 38,426 MFP Moderator
    edited December 2016
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    Thanks for the help! My metabolism is messed up because I lost weight quickly at 1200 cals a day with exercise. I also have hormonal imbalances, insulin resistance, possible PCOS, reasons for not getting my period.
    I would LOVE a food scale but my roommates would freak out. They already reported me to the campus nutritionist and now I have to go to therapy every week. A food scale is just not possible in my situation:( I wish it was.
    I guess recomp seems to be the way to go I'm just so clueless. Thanks..

    OP do you have a history with EDs by chance? Somethings 'off' here.....

    NO! My friends and family and nutritionist just think I'm getting one. My best friend was anorexic in high school and trust me, I'm NOT! Yes, I obsess about it but they just don't understand! I put so much work into this and it's frustrating to not see results! I feel like I worked so hard I should look how I want to look and I just don't. They think I look "great" but they don't see the cellulite and rolls that I do. I just want to be happy about my body and it isn't cooperating. I'm terrified of increasing anything because I don't want to gain weight and have all my hard work be for nothing:(

    You lost 35lbs. How can you even suggest it's all for nothing? Also, have you considered the reason you aren't seeing the result you want, is that the plan itself is wrong? You aggressively cut calories, lost weight quickly, which can cause bigger issues when trying to hit your goal (stretch marks, gallbladder issues, loss of muscle, etc...).

    What you need to do, is take a step back and look at the total picture of what you are trying to achieve and follow the plan to support that. Setting goal weights at this point, IMO, is dumb. I think what you want to achieve is different that what you believe it is. You feel you need to lose weight, but in reality, you probably need to build some muscle and cut a little fat.

    And based on your medical needs, you probably need to modify your diet to support that.


    ETA: I can't tell you how many underweight women come into the gaining weight section and still complain about lower body or stomach fat. The reason is, really poor body composition. Muscle makes you lean and if you don't have enough, you won't be lean. While the below is about males, it also applies to women but at a higher body fat level

    10-percent-body-fat-male-pictures1.jpg
  • LINIA
    LINIA Posts: 1,159 Member
    edited December 2016
    I'd continue to try to lose those pounds while you likely have a "great" metabolism, if you are eating any processed foods, eliminate them:

    When I was young, the only morbidly obese person I saw was the fat man at the circus. He was big, but nowadays I see people who are much larger all over the place. The old 'fat' has become the new average.

    There must be something other than over-eating going on to make a person put on hundreds of pounds...so now is a good time to curb your calories as you're likely eating above your true "maintenance".

    Obesity and being overweight are at crisis proportions..........so yes, continue to figure things out.

    Good Luck
  • tlflag1620
    tlflag1620 Posts: 1,358 Member
    Listen to psuLemon. You dropped weight aggressively, probably losing a good bit of muscle in that process. You're doing tons of cardio, and not much strength work. Gradually up your calories so you are around maintenance, and instead of doing an hour (plus) of cardio six days a week, start a progressive lifting program and drop the cardio down to only a couple times a week (and only 20-30 min at a time). Take measurements and ignore the scale. You will see your shape improve.

    Most importantly - relax! You are 20 years old. You are a healthy weight already. You probably look fantastic, even if you can't see it (I'm not judging, we all have those "trouble spots" that we hate. Maybe even more so when we are young and less forgiving of ourselves!). You seem to have a good grasp on weight management (CICO). You exercise regularly. You have your whole life ahead of you. Don't set arbitrary weight goals or time limits. No need to stress.
  • tlflag1620
    tlflag1620 Posts: 1,358 Member
    LINIA wrote: »
    I'd continue to try to lose those pounds while you likely have a "great" metabolism, if you are eating any processed foods, eliminate them:

    When I was young, the only morbidly obese person I saw was the fat man at the circus. He was big, but nowadays I see people who are much larger all over the place. The old 'fat' has become the new average.

    There must be something other than over-eating going on to make a person put on hundreds of pounds...so now is a good time to curb your calories as you're likely eating above your true "maintenance".

    Obesity and being overweight are at crisis proportions..........so yes, continue to figure things out.

    Good Luck

    Dear god ignore all of this! You are not overweight in the slightest and are not eating over your maintenance.
  • zorander6
    zorander6 Posts: 2,713 Member
    I'll reiterate what I posted earlier. Get the kitten away from the scales, eat reasonably for a couple weeks and review your numbers. Seriously I'm glad your roommates reported you, honestly you are staring an eating disorder in the face. Be happy with your weight and accept yourself as you are. Currently you are in a healthy weight range and shouldn't be stressing this. Stop and take a break. You achieved what the goal is for weight loss. Now look at maintaining. If you want to build strength go for it but you are going overboard.

    Seriously you need to see a counselor about this idea that you need to be model perfect. You are exactly where you need to be. Listen to what everyone else is saying and get off the bloody scales for a bit. College can be stressful as it is, don't add this stress to it.

    I seriously doubt any guy who sees you is going to say "oh she's too overweight for me!" If he does kick his kitten to the curb. Quit focusing on your weight. You are where you need to be.
  • leajas1
    leajas1 Posts: 823 Member
    Nikki10129 wrote: »
    Losing another 10 lbs isn't going to suddenly make you love yourself. Plenty of people reach goal weight thinking that's what they needed to be happy with their appearance only to find that it doesn't make them feel the way they thought it would, they STILL have to spend time changing their perspective on their bodies. You aren't going to wake up in the 130's and suddenly be happy with your body if you aren't happy with it now.

    Yes, this. See my profile pic? You can see the muscle there and in this pic I was so lean that I was on the cusp of being underweight for my height. But I still had cellulite on the back of my thighs/butt! It's genetics and I'm not getting rid of it. I'm actively working on being okay with that. I could make myself miserable by losing more, but I'll still have cellulite there. I agree with everybody else who has said that recomping is the way to go, but you're going to need to change the way you think about the number on the scale.
  • zorander6
    zorander6 Posts: 2,713 Member
    sfaust2196 wrote: »
    NO! My friends and family and nutritionist just think I'm getting one. My best friend was anorexic in high school and trust me, I'm NOT! Yes, I obsess about it but they just don't understand! I put so much work into this and it's frustrating to not see results! I feel like I worked so hard I should look how I want to look and I just don't. They think I look "great" but they don't see the cellulite and rolls that I do. I just want to be happy about my body and it isn't cooperating. I'm terrified of increasing anything because I don't want to gain weight and have all my hard work be for nothing:(

    I'm telling you as a general know it all that you are working your way into an eating disorder if not already there. Build some muscle but get happy with the way you are! You may gain a little, lose a little but if you eat at maintenance you shouldn't gain a lot. Maintain what you have and be happy with yourself.
  • zorander6
    zorander6 Posts: 2,713 Member
    savithny wrote: »
    [
    Gently? The kind of black and white thinking that you "aren't seeing results." and it "will be for nothing," and "they just don't understand my obsession?"
    All is putting up red flags that you are not approaching this with a healthy mindset anymore.

    You're aiming towards the much-lower end of "normal" weight for your height and you're obsessing about fractions of pounds. Those are very concerning developments.

    Honestly from reading the entire thread I'm not sure it was approached with the right mindset at the beginning. She cut way down and was doing more than 2/week for an unknown amount of time and I'm guessing significantly increased the burn. Focusing on fractions of weight and not applying maintenance and losing more to "be ideal looking" rather than healthy.

    Seriously this is a case of talking to a counselor. Some serious red flags here.
  • sfaust2196
    sfaust2196 Posts: 30 Member
    Thanks for the advice everyone. Wanted to say a few things
    1. I don't think I lost the weight quickly. It seemed to drag on forever. I was eating 900-1200 a day for months last year to lose 8 pounds in four months. It was not until I started metformin that I upped my calories to 1200. It took me about 18 months to lose 35 pounds- that is about .5 pounds a week. Not quick. I am now at 1400-1600 a day as requested by my nutritionist to "reverse diet" and boost my metabolism.
    2. I am going to therapy but it is not helping. My therapist is a man and just doesn't get it. He keeps asking me things like "why is it better to be thin" um I'm pretty sure everyone thinks that thin people are generally more attractive but he says that that isn't true. Maybe I'll try a new therapist that better understands the pressure put on young women these days.
    3. I want to look thin. I don't need to look like Kendall Jenner- she is 128 and I agree that is too light for me. But for all my hard work I should be in the 130s. My sister eats at least 3500 calories a day, doesn't work out, and is thinner than me. All my roommates eat and bake the most unhealthy foods and drink all the time and are all the same or thinner than me. Everyone always says that fat people are lazy and to just "put your fork down" and you'll look better but they don't get how hard it was! I was so disciplined and did not take days off. But I still look like your average college student, I want to look great!
    4. I appreciate all the advice. I tried just running a Mile and then doing machines and weights at the gym this morning. I will keep at it.
    5. Everywhere I look says that my maintence is about 2300 a day with just moderate exercise- I walk so much around campus and work out. But I will gain weight on this. What do you suggest increasing to now if I continue with weight lifting trying to lose fat and gain muscle? Is 1700-1800 reasonable?
    6. Thank you!!!!!!!
  • VeryKatie
    VeryKatie Posts: 5,961 Member
    edited December 2016
    When you have a large chest naturally, chances are you don't really have the type of body that should be so low on the BMI scale (you're aiming for 19.4). Perhaps the weight you're at is the weight that you should be. You might be better off starting a strength routine to increase muscle (and firmness) and to revamp your wardrobe. The clothes we wear can often have a bigger impact than those last 5-10 lbs. Make sure they fit you and that they flatter you.

    However - if you're looking for a place you might be going wrong? I doubt you're burning 450 calories doing 45 minutes of elliptical unless you're on max resistance. Don't trust the number Fitbit gives you. Or the machine. Or MFP. The best estimate you can get without doing special tests is to take what MFP gives you and divide it in half.

    Diet pills don't work. Unless you get ones prescribed by a doctor. But any medically competent doctor would never prescribe them to you since you're a healthy weight.
  • zorander6
    zorander6 Posts: 2,713 Member
    edited December 2016
    1. Ok, to be blunt if you weren't loosing stupid fast on 900-1200 you are measuring wrong. Furthermore if you were only losing half pound a week on that you were really only about 125 calories below maintenance. There is no such thing as "reverse diet."
    2. "He just doesn't get it." Ok, I'm sure he's probably heard everything under the sun. As for the peer pressure, ignore it. Sure it's bull all around but there are guys who like curvy women. It's what is inside that counts. It can be hard socially but once you realize all of this "pressure put on young women" is a bunch of bull manure and can accept the fact that you are at the right weight for yourself you will be much happier.
    3. Your sister may be burning more than you realize if she's eating that much. Without knowing her and her details we cannot give you a reason (and unless she chooses to tell us it isn't our business.) Quit comparing yourself to your sister. You are two different people
    4. Keep exercising but EAT HALF WHAT YOU BURN OR THE WRATH OF GOND WILL FALL. Ok maybe not quite but still.
    5. Up your protiens and get up to 2200 calories a day minimum. Honestly at this point I'd go for maintenance after eating half your burn back. You will be slightly below maintenance but I'm not sure your numbers are right. If you do this for a month and gain more than 2 lbs then adjust down by 50 calories. You need to be at maintenance. Not below.