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Cheat day..yes or no?
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lemurcat12 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »As I keep saying, I don't like the term "cheat day," but I think we need to be aware that people use it differently. It rarely means absolutely insane eat everything in the house kind of blow-out, though, from what I can tell. Various ways it is used:
(1) Day I don't log;
(2) Day I eat foods not on my usual plan;
(3) (related to 2) Day I go off a specific diet I am doing (low carb or paleo or something of that sort);
(4) Day I eat over calories (planned into the week);
(5) Day I eat over calories (not planned into the week);
(6) Day I have one meal that is extra indulgent, but logged;
(7) Day I have one meal that is not logged (sometimes extra indulgent, sometimes not);
(8) Day at maintenance when otherwise dieting;
(9) Many others.
Not sure why some insist on thinking "cheat day" must be absolutely crazy eat an enormous amount of food kind of day. Some use it in that sense, but many do not.
Good points here. As I said above, I am currently having trouble moderating, and one of my issues with moderating is because I'm a volume eater. There's a study I've seen mentioned by Lyle McDonald about people who incorporate the concept of treat/cheat/indulgence days/meals into their diet plans. I'm going to do that when I go back to eating at deficit after Christmas, and they will be planned maintenance days where I plan food/treats that I'm not currently eating regularly like cake or cookies.
I did that when dieting (which I need to get back to, eventually, sigh). Basically, I dieted twice, once with MFP, one other time years ago (maintained the loss for years after that). Both times I found it helpful to include a maintenance day (it wasn't really as high as maintenance when I was logging with MFP, don't know the first time as I wasn't counting calories), where I just ate more, often because I worked in a more indulgent dinner, mainly (helpful as I tend to go out to restaurants with friends weekly and it's hard to count at local places). But I never thought of it as going way, way over-the-top. It was more eating like I could if I were at maintenance. It was helpful in keeping me happy at lower calories the rest of the week and for whatever reason easier for me than simply eating a little more on all other days.
That's good to know. I did the moderation when I lost the bulk of my weight.
I recently found a source of a lot of hidden calories I was eating (hello badly labeled eaten every day food!) so I think I can finally shed these vanity pounds that have been eluding me. I just want to get past this trying to moderate and failing leading to overeating problem I've been having.
Hopefully playing with my macros (I've upped my fat) and doing this maintenance day thing will help.0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
But you were responding to @lemurcat12 who was addressing another poster (not OP) who seemed to think that they had a 6 lb swing (2 lbs down to 4 lbs up) in one weekend because of a cheat meal/day. @lemurcat12 was trying to explain to that poster that it was not likely true fat gain, unless she had eaten a surplus of 14K calories, which is EXTREMELY unlikely. You jumped in with the claim that it is not that far fetched, and again, what people are trying to tell you is that yes, that is far fetched, or an anomaly, or you are just special with your ability to consume 3.5x more in a cheat day than what the average poster is talking about.
So no, I don't think you are actually posting thoughts and experiences relevant to either OP's question or that poster in question's experience either. I think you are making an outlandish claim to try to demonstrate how unique your individual situation is without regard for whether or not this is relevant or helpful to ANY poster in this thread.
It's a public forum and you are certainly free to post your own experiences - but I ask you, with all sincerity, do you really think that comments such as these are relevant for the community at large?
@lemurcat12 said "not physically possible," not "extremely unlikely." THAT is what I was responding to initially, without addressing other comments from those who have shared other experiences, thoughts, etc.
OP's question was not about "cheat days less than X Calories." It doesn't matter how "outlandish" you think my experience is, nor do I believe my experience is truly "unique." I believe there are very few willing to actually talk about eating that much, from among those who truly measure cheat days because of the social stigma involved... the notions that it is "outlandish" and "not physically possible" are barely even the tip of the iceberg representing that stigma.
Do I think my experience with cheat days is relevant to OP's question and for the community at large? Yes, with absolute sincerity. I do think that the discussion of relevance is off topic, though. So after this response, I'm going to leave the relevance debate to the rest of you. I'll answer your question for next time so you don't need to ask again (in this thread or any other thread): If I post something in a thread, I think it is relevant to the discussion in that thread.
And when @lemurcat12 breaks it all down as she so patiently did above, with 10 donuts, a large pasta lunch, multiple whole pizzas, etc, I also agree that it's either not physically possible, or if it is, it should never be described as a "cheat day" , because that quantity of food consumed should only be described as a binge and would best be addressed by a professional.. This has nothing to do with a social stigma and everything to do with not acknowledging that if these scenarios are indeed true, then they represent an eating disorder not a "cheat meal".9 -
I wouldn't have a whole cheat day if I was you. If you've been on a diet for a long period of time I would have a cheat meal once a week just to make sure your body's metabolism gets shocked and metabolizes your meal. I'm not saying eat sweets and craziness. Have a nice high carb moderate protein moderate fat meal. And a lot of people imo get confused that the body doesn't run on a weekly basis. It runs of an a daily hour to hour basis. So cutting back on calories to prepare for something big doesn't make sense. The last thing you want is to continue to drop your calories because you're losing progress and that's simply because your body's metabolism will adjust if you feed it the same thing. Why I think a cheat meal is very important once a week. Just my 2 cents.0
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Why would the metabolism need to be "shocked" into metabolizing a meal...?speed3_bobby wrote: »I wouldn't have a whole cheat day if I was you. If you've been on a diet for a long period of time I would have a cheat meal once a week just to make sure your body's metabolism gets shocked and metabolizes your meal.
Nonsense. How did you determine this?speed3_bobby wrote: »I'm not saying eat sweets and craziness. Have a nice high carb moderate protein moderate fat meal. And a lot of people imo get confused that the body doesn't run on a weekly basis. It runs of an a daily hour to hour basis. So cutting back on calories to prepare for something big doesn't make sense.
What does this even mean?speed3_bobby wrote: »The last thing you want is to continue to drop your calories because you're losing progress and that's simply because your body's metabolism will adjust if you feed it the same thing. Why I think a cheat meal is very important once a week. Just my 2 cents.3 -
I have almost zero access to the treats that I crave so for me a cheat day does happen. Once every 3 months or so I have to return to civilization, so to speak, and then I eat, drink and be merry. This is not just a cheat for the diet but for my mind as well. It actually revitalizes my efforts for losing weight and calorie control. But thsat's just me. Right or wrong I need to play once in a while.0
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.
For who in their right mind is 20k kcal required? Even Michael Phelps said that 12k number about him that went around the internet was overinflated.3 -
I couldn't even imagine 20k, or even 12, being required. That would likely land me in a hospital getting my stomach pumped.1
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stevencloser wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.
For who in their right mind is 20k kcal required? Even Michael Phelps said that 12k number about him that went around the internet was overinflated.
1) The figure being discussed was 14k
2)We are talking about 1 day at these calories not a prolonged period
3)Someone who has a high TDEE
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trigden1991 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.
For who in their right mind is 20k kcal required? Even Michael Phelps said that 12k number about him that went around the internet was overinflated.
1) The figure being discussed was 14k
2)We are talking about 1 day at these calories not a prolonged period
3)Someone who has a high TDEE
That poster doesn't have a high TDEE. He has a history of wondering why he can't lose weight. I defend my statement of saying that for him it was disordered and a binge.
For someone else, it could be a planned refeed.3 -
Yourkindagirl wrote: »You can do too much damage with a cheat day. Have a cheat meal once a week. That way you don't just lose it and binge, but there is some control. I have a cheat meal schedule every week. I don't always use it, but I have it to look forward to just in case I am having a weak moment.
^^This!! I use to have a Saturday as my cheat day but would go WILD and end up spending the following week paying for it, just to end up doing the same every week and not losing. Now I have a treat on a Saturday (be it a meal I've been looking forward to or a dessert or a sweet etc) and it works better for me!! I allow myself a treat every day (within my calorie budget) so I don't feel the need to go mad on a Saturday and it's much more sustainable in the long run (for me at least, everyone is different).0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I'd like to see what 4lb uncooked spaghetti looks like! I bet that's awesome!! It sounds like heaven!!0 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I'd like to see what 4lb uncooked spaghetti looks like! I bet that's awesome!! It sounds like heaven!!
It ended up being rather difficult to cook because, despite having a large pot for cooking, I didn't have a big enough strainer for it. So when it was done cooking, I had to strain some of it from the pot, then set the rest of the spaghetti and water aside, find another container to put the strained spaghetti in the meantime while straining the rest of the spaghetti, then repeat.GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.
For who in their right mind is 20k kcal required? Even Michael Phelps said that 12k number about him that went around the internet was overinflated.
1) The figure being discussed was 14k
2)We are talking about 1 day at these calories not a prolonged period
3)Someone who has a high TDEE
That poster doesn't have a high TDEE. He has a history of wondering why he can't lose weight. I defend my statement of saying that for him it was disordered and a binge.
For someone else, it could be a planned refeed.
It has been quite awhile since I've had trouble losing weight. And yes, I've had trouble losing even when eating at a deficit... that's incredibly frustrating for someone with my appetite. I could put up with feeling like I'm starving as long as I'm seeing some progress. When I hit a plateau and progress stops, it becomes impossible to justify being dissatisfied AND to have no progress. I've found that very few understand or have experienced a true plateau / whoosh. After it happened to me a couple of times, I've figured them out. So I haven't actually asked for help on plateaus for about 2 years. I haven't experienced a true plateau for 1.5 years. And for the past 9 months, I've actually been losing based on CICO finally after switching to low carb.
So I've lost very slowly for most of 3 years and half of that loss has happened in the past 9 months when I finally figured out what works for me. I still have cheat days with about the same frequency as during the first year (actually, about twice as often, but with smaller magnitudes that even out to about the same), but have still lost much more quickly.
I find it odd that you would bring up challenges / struggles where I most recently posted for help 2 years ago; and for which you don't recall the details correctly and wouldn't have known what happened since. It seems to be a particularly unusual method to argue the definition of "cheat day."0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.
For who in their right mind is 20k kcal required? Even Michael Phelps said that 12k number about him that went around the internet was overinflated.
1) The figure being discussed was 14k
The figure being discussed was 16K or, specifically, 14K over maintenance, which I estimated at 2000 for the person who said she gained 4 lbs after a "bit of a cheat, not massive." The question was whether one would actually gain 4 lb of FAT after such a cheat day, which I believe is not possible (in part because no one would describe 14K over maintenance as "a bit of a cheat, not massive.")
Given the amount of food this involves, I still don't see how this level of calories is ever required, but I want to make sure the correct context is given.2 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I'd like to see what 4lb uncooked spaghetti looks like! I bet that's awesome!! It sounds like heaven!!
Rice, not pasta, but I think this will help out. (The rice part starts about halfway in.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9zR93XrCTA 3 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.
For who in their right mind is 20k kcal required? Even Michael Phelps said that 12k number about him that went around the internet was overinflated.
1) The figure being discussed was 14k
The figure being discussed was 16K or, specifically, 14K over maintenance, which I estimated at 2000 for the person who said she gained 4 lbs after a "bit of a cheat, not massive." The question was whether one would actually gain 4 lb of FAT after such a cheat day, which I believe is not possible (in part because no one would describe 14K over maintenance as "a bit of a cheat, not massive.")
Given the amount of food this involves, I still don't see how this level of calories is ever required, but I want to make sure the correct context is given.
That'll teach me to read further back before commenting.2 -
trigden1991 wrote: »stevencloser wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »midwesterner85 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »That's why I think it's important to understand how weight loss works. It's simply not physically possible to gain 4 lbs in a day, let alone if you are basically staying in maintenance calories (which is how I read "bit of a cheat day, not massively"). What is possible is for weight to fluctuate daily independent of what you eat, and what is also possible is for a major change in amount of sodium or carbs (or also other things like exercise) to lead to a big fluctuation of water. But unless preparing for a bikini competition or some such most people don't have reason to care about water weight.
The reason I think it's harmful to mistakenly think that these are fat changes and mean that eating at maintenance but pizza (or having one cookie or whatever) = weight gain is, well, it's not true and it's bad to believe things that aren't true, but also because it can lead to the idea that to diet correctly one must be very restrictive way beyond watching calories (or keep calories super low all the time, as some seem to think)* and that can lead to the idea that if you go off plan some day, well, then, it's ruined and might as well go nuts or feel bad about yourself.
For me, "cheating" wasn't a good concept because I easily fall into the "well, I cheated so it's a bad day, so I might as well make it worth it" or "it's already bad so eating more won't make it worse, I'll get back to it tomorrow or Monday or after Christmas or on Jan 1." (Did that repeatedly until I finally got serious in late Jan 2014, even though intellectually I knew it was stupid.)
Now, not saying anyone should have to eat anything they prefer not to, but I do think it's important to understand that eating a cheat food doesn't cause fat gain -- eating excessive calories do. And to lose 2 lb of fat you need around a deficit of 7000, so to gain 4 lb of fat you'd need a surplus of 14,000 calories.
*For example, there was a poster who claimed to gain on 1400 but lose 2 lb per week at 1200 which is simply again not possible.
A surplus of 14K calories in a day is possible. In fact, it isn't really that hard... I've had cheat days of far more than 14K surplus. Some of us have an appetite.
So you can throw down 12-14 pounds of ribeye steak in a day? Or maybe 10 cups/5 pounds of pure lard (100% fat, max possible calories)? C'mon now. We're pushing the boundaries of "speshul snowflake" here.
I don't think I've ever eaten pure lard for a day, but have had cheat days with several donuts, 4 lbs. (uncooked weight) spaghetti + sauce (including 2 lbs. sausage), pizzas, a few cakes, cookies, chips, and ice cream. Yes, there have been cheat days where I have logged in excess of 20K.
So not one of the overweight or formerly overweight people here are capable or have ever been capable of eating a big surplus the way I have?! I find that hard to believe. Still, I won't say it is "not possible."
I also agree that for the vast majority this would be impossible to achieve and certainly an unlikely regular occurrence.
But do you really think it is relevant for the poster who was concerned that she went from a 2 lb loss to a 4 lb gain in one weekend after a cheat meal? Do you really think the likely situation is that she consumed these vast quantities of foods that you indicate are possible? Or.... do you think it is far more likely that she probably had some temporary water retention from an increase in sodium, carbs, or both on a cheat day that was maybe 1000 or so cals above her norm?
You seem determined to bring in your individual experience into these threads as if it is representative for the rest of the population, derailing the thread into another argument with people disputing your claims or arguing over semantics, which is just not helpful.
OP's question was about our thoughts on a cheat day. My thoughts are that it can seriously set back weight loss. I say "can" and not "will" because there are a lot of variables. My experience is that scheduling a cheat day once every several months slows down weight loss significantly. A cheat day every month would negate deficits for the whole month and possibly cause a gain.
Are my thoughts and experiences on a cheat day relevant to OP's question about our thoughts on cheat days? Yes.
If you are talking about a 14K+ cheat day then no, they are probably not relevant...
That's not a cheat day. That's more in the neighborhood of a binge.
Maybe for some but for others, like myself, a day of that caloric magnitude is not that detrimental and is sometimes required. It all comes down to circumstance though.
For who in their right mind is 20k kcal required? Even Michael Phelps said that 12k number about him that went around the internet was overinflated.
1) The figure being discussed was 14k
2)We are talking about 1 day at these calories not a prolonged period
3)Someone who has a high TDEE
Even with a high TDEE, let's say 5000, who needs 3 times their TDEE?2 -
I told myself a long time ago that I would never go on a diet so restrictive that I felt like I NEEDED to have a cheat day. When I think of cheat days/meals I think of my extremely restrictive Atkins diet and then having cheat days...or cheating 1 bad thing and just throwing the whole day away! It was a horrible cycle I will never put myself through again!1
-
I don't think they are a good idea. From deprivation we are all bound to sometimes cheat but to plan one out intentionally is no good. In my opinion. I used to do cheat days but then realized I was screwing up here and there anyways. I think your body will almost make you cheat sometimes just don't plan it.0
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TaraTaraTara76 wrote: »I don't think they are a good idea. From deprivation we are all bound to sometimes cheat but to plan one out intentionally is no good. In my opinion. I used to do cheat days but then realized I was screwing up here and there anyways. I think your body will almost make you cheat sometimes just don't plan it.
Doesn't it depend on what a "cheat day" is?
I don't think the term "cheat" really makes sense in this context, but since people seem to like to use it I think we need to recognize there are a wide variety of meanings.
(Also I'd question the idea that eating a bit off plan = "screwing up" or that dieting="deprivation.")1
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