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Can Negative Thinking Make You Sick?
Replies
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For years no one could do a mile under 4 minutes............till Roger Bannister did it. After that, the record kept getting broken time after time. What changed? The belief that it could be done. That's how records get broken.I don't believe our thoughts or intentions have a magical effect (on ourselves or the world around us), no.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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A great topic & thanks for every post. This speaks to me.2
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For years no one could do a mile under 4 minutes............till Roger Bannister did it. After that, the record kept getting broken time after time. What changed? The belief that it could be done. That's how records get broken.I don't believe our thoughts or intentions have a magical effect (on ourselves or the world around us), no.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes. And that belief led to actions -- people trained harder or better, people chose not to give up when the process became grueling. Runners were able to learn from Bannister's experience and adjust their own training. Runners who may not even have tried to run a 4-minute mile decided to try once they knew it was possible. Etc. Similarly, there are millions of runners in the world for whom a 4-minute mile will never be possible, no matter how much they believe in it or in their own potential!
Belief alone is just belief. Thought alone is just thought. Thoughts aren't magic; nothing (external) happens by pure thought.0 -
The topic isn't about external events though. Sickness and stress are internal.
For years no one could do a mile under 4 minutes............till Roger Bannister did it. After that, the record kept getting broken time after time. What changed? The belief that it could be done. That's how records get broken.I don't believe our thoughts or intentions have a magical effect (on ourselves or the world around us), no.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes. And that belief led to actions -- people trained harder or better, people chose not to give up when the process became grueling. Runners were able to learn from Bannister's experience and adjust their own training. Runners who may not even have tried to run a 4-minute mile decided to try once they knew it was possible. Etc. Similarly, there are millions of runners in the world for whom a 4-minute mile will never be possible, no matter how much they believe in it or in their own potential!
Belief alone is just belief. Thought alone is just thought. Thoughts aren't magic; nothing (external) happens by pure thought.
http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/stress.aspx
Chronic stressWhen stress starts interfering with your ability to live a normal life for an extended period, it becomes even more dangerous. The longer the stress lasts, the worse it is for both your mind and body. You might feel fatigued, unable to concentrate or irritable for no good reason, for example. But chronic stress causes wear and tear on your body, too.
Stress can make existing problems worse.2 In one study, for example, about half the participants saw improvements in chronic headaches after learning how to stop the stress-producing habit of “catastrophizing,” or constantly thinking negative thoughts about their pain.3 Chronic stress may also cause disease, either because of changes in your body or the overeating, smoking and other bad habits people use to cope with stress. Job strain — high demands coupled with low decision-making latitude — is associated with increased risk of coronary disease, for example.4 Other forms of chronic stress, such as depression and low levels of social support, have also been implicated in increased cardiovascular risk. And once you're sick, stress can also make it harder to recover. One analysis of past studies, for instance, suggests that cardiac patients with so-called “Type D” personalities — characterized by chronic distress — face higher risks of bad outcomes.5
Regarding correlation between stress and negative or positive thinking:
http://education.jhu.edu/PD/newhorizons/strategies/topics/Keeping Fit for Learning/stress.htmlThe Negative Consequences of Stress
Stress is neutral – it is a person's perception of the event that determines their response.
Stress is positive when the person feels stimulated and able to manage the situation. This positive response prepares the body for action and activates the higher thinking centers of the brain. A positive response to stress can provide the energy to handle emergencies, meet challenges, and excel.
Stress is negative when a person feels threatened and not in control of the situation. These feelings instigate a powerful reaction – affecting both the brain and body in ways that can be destructive to physical and mental health.
Due respect, I don't see anything "magical" about it.0 -
The question asked was "can negative thinking make you sick," not "can negative thinking stress you out," and as a corollary response a lot of people were talking about how "positivity" causes all sorts of wondrous real-life things (such as running a 4-minute mile). My response(s) addressed the original question and the later discussion, and in fact I discussed the stress effect in my first post to the thread.1
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The question asked was "can negative thinking make you sick," not "can negative thinking stress you out," and as a corollary response a lot of people were talking about how "positivity" causes all sorts of wondrous real-life things (such as running a 4-minute mile). My response(s) addressed the original question and the later discussion, and in fact I discussed the stress effect in my first post to the thread.
I saw that, and don't disagree with you
It was the comment about magic, and the notion that stress can occur without thought that's implied in your comment. I would dare say that if I could stop or more tightly control *all of my thought processes, I could alleviate, or even avoid the vast majority of stress.2 -
Absolutely it can. Where the mind goes the body will follow. Emotions can affect the body in many ways also. Our thoughts and emotions can really go hand in hand. Just ask someone who has a problem with anxiety or panic. When I feel myself spiraling out of control I post on my news feed and one of my wonderful friends is always there to speak some sense back into me.1
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The question asked was "can negative thinking make you sick," not "can negative thinking stress you out," and as a corollary response a lot of people were talking about how "positivity" causes all sorts of wondrous real-life things (such as running a 4-minute mile). My response(s) addressed the original question and the later discussion, and in fact I discussed the stress effect in my first post to the thread.
I saw that, and don't disagree with you
It was the comment about magic, and the notion that stress can occur without thought that's implied in your comment. I would dare say that if I could stop or more tightly control *all of my thought processes, I could alleviate, or even avoid the vast majority of stress.
I think the part I bolded is where we really differ! I absolutely think stress can occur without thought. Loved ones die, jobs disappear, car accidents happen, politics... are politics, money gets tight, kids misbehave, colleagues and bosses are jerks, germs wreak havoc, and on and on and on and on. All of these things are stressors. None of these things are caused by our thoughts. (Of course, there are grey areas where our thoughts lead to actions which can contribute to things like the loss of a job, but what I mean here is our thoughts alone do not always cause such things.)
Now, can negative thoughts about stressors exacerbate the stress they cause? Of course. Definitely. But negative thoughts did not cause the stressors, because -- again -- thoughts are just thoughts. They don't somehow make these things happen in the real world.
I also think it's important to note that a person can experience stress without being "negative." The loss of a parent or spouse is devastating, and facing it realistically causes enormous stress. That isn't "being negative," though; it's simply an honest reaction to a stressful event. We experience all kinds of strife as we live our lives, and the stress of it can make us sick even if we aren't "negative." This is another way to see that negativity alone does not cause illness, etc. Stress may contribute to it, but stress and negativity are not as synonymous as practitioners of The Secret would have you believe.
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Ah ok, thanks for clarifying that! I admit I wasn't quite certain where you were coming from, so I tried to step gentlyThe question asked was "can negative thinking make you sick," not "can negative thinking stress you out," and as a corollary response a lot of people were talking about how "positivity" causes all sorts of wondrous real-life things (such as running a 4-minute mile). My response(s) addressed the original question and the later discussion, and in fact I discussed the stress effect in my first post to the thread.
I saw that, and don't disagree with you
It was the comment about magic, and the notion that stress can occur without thought that's implied in your comment. I would dare say that if I could stop or more tightly control *all of my thought processes, I could alleviate, or even avoid the vast majority of stress.
I think the part I bolded is where we really differ! I absolutely think stress can occur without thought. Loved ones die, jobs disappear, car accidents happen, politics... are politics, money gets tight, kids misbehave, colleagues and bosses are jerks, germs wreak havoc, and on and on and on and on. All of these things are stressors. None of these things are caused by our thoughts. (Of course, there are grey areas where our thoughts lead to actions which can contribute to things like the loss of a job, but what I mean here is our thoughts alone do not always cause such things.)
Now, can negative thoughts about stressors exacerbate the stress they cause? Of course. Definitely. But negative thoughts did not cause the stressors, because -- again -- thoughts are just thoughts. They don't somehow make these things happen in the real world. I agree of course, and if I implied that I thought otherwise I apologize - not my intent at all.
I don't think we're that far apart here, we're just expressing our thoughts differently, and I'll own that. I'm aware I can be a bit less than clear sometimes lol.I also think it's important to note that a person can experience stress without being "negative." The loss of a parent or spouse is devastating, and facing it realistically causes enormous stress. That isn't "being negative," though; it's simply an honest reaction to a stressful event. We experience all kinds of strife as we live our lives, and the stress of it can make us sick even if we aren't "negative." This is another way to see that negativity alone does not cause illness, etc. Stress may contribute to it, but stress and negativity are not as synonymous as practitioners of The Secret would have you believe.
During much of my training in, and after the military, stress was touted as a desirable asset in that it prompts a higher level of response than what our default reaction to a situation may be, and I've personally found that to be true.
Where the negativity fits in for me are those people who are of a mindset that everything is negative, and therefore stress inducing, if that makes sense.
I see this topic though, as being about those who are perpetually negative or stressed for no apparent reason, the debbie downers of the world, so to speak.
I hope that clarifies a bit where my focus is.0 -
The question asked was "can negative thinking make you sick," not "can negative thinking stress you out," and as a corollary response a lot of people were talking about how "positivity" causes all sorts of wondrous real-life things (such as running a 4-minute mile). My response(s) addressed the original question and the later discussion, and in fact I discussed the stress effect in my first post to the thread.
I saw that, and don't disagree with you
It was the comment about magic, and the notion that stress can occur without thought that's implied in your comment. I would dare say that if I could stop or more tightly control *all of my thought processes, I could alleviate, or even avoid the vast majority of stress.
I think the part I bolded is where we really differ! I absolutely think stress can occur without thought. Loved ones die, jobs disappear, car accidents happen, politics... are politics, money gets tight, kids misbehave, colleagues and bosses are jerks, germs wreak havoc, and on and on and on and on. All of these things are stressors. None of these things are caused by our thoughts. (Of course, there are grey areas where our thoughts lead to actions which can contribute to things like the loss of a job, but what I mean here is our thoughts alone do not always cause such things.)
Now, can negative thoughts about stressors exacerbate the stress they cause? Of course. Definitely. But negative thoughts did not cause the stressors, because -- again -- thoughts are just thoughts. They don't somehow make these things happen in the real world.
I also think it's important to note that a person can experience stress without being "negative." The loss of a parent or spouse is devastating, and facing it realistically causes enormous stress. That isn't "being negative," though; it's simply an honest reaction to a stressful event. We experience all kinds of strife as we live our lives, and the stress of it can make us sick even if we aren't "negative." This is another way to see that negativity alone does not cause illness, etc. Stress may contribute to it, but stress and negativity are not as synonymous as practitioners of The Secret would have you believe.
I agree with the bolded. I experienced the death of my husband by an unnecessary event. I wasn't negative (I worked hard to stay positive) but for months I was stressed which led to stress over the course of several years trying to deal with the emotional aspect not only for me but my children.
That stress led to a normally healthy person to one that every I turned around some new health problem flared up.
There is another aspect of stress...being under stress over time can lead to a lifestyle that lends itself to becoming unhealthy. I will be honest...the stress in my life led to me not caring about myself or my health. I will also admit...trying to stay positive also added to the stress. I wonder looking back if I would have been better off allowing myself to experience the negativity.
So how one deals with stress can play a significant part on how stress affects our health.
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How do you know they trained harder? Self doubt in people happen all the time. I can't count how many times I've worked with clients who would NEVER attempt a weight or exercise until I gave them the confidence mentally that they could. And that's all they needed to do it.
For years no one could do a mile under 4 minutes............till Roger Bannister did it. After that, the record kept getting broken time after time. What changed? The belief that it could be done. That's how records get broken.I don't believe our thoughts or intentions have a magical effect (on ourselves or the world around us), no.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes. And that belief led to actions -- people trained harder or better, people chose not to give up when the process became grueling. Runners were able to learn from Bannister's experience and adjust their own training. Runners who may not even have tried to run a 4-minute mile decided to try once they knew it was possible. Etc. Similarly, there are millions of runners in the world for whom a 4-minute mile will never be possible, no matter how much they believe in it or in their own potential!
Belief alone is just belief. Thought alone is just thought. Thoughts aren't magic; nothing (external) happens by pure thought.
And without thought, action doesn't happen. I see what you're alluding to, but negatively thinking one cannot do something DOES make a difference versus if they believe they can.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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For years no one could do a mile under 4 minutes............till Roger Bannister did it. After that, the record kept getting broken time after time. What changed? The belief that it could be done. That's how records get broken.I don't believe our thoughts or intentions have a magical effect (on ourselves or the world around us), no.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes. And that belief led to actions -- people trained harder or better, people chose not to give up when the process became grueling. Runners were able to learn from Bannister's experience and adjust their own training. Runners who may not even have tried to run a 4-minute mile decided to try once they knew it was possible. Etc. Similarly, there are millions of runners in the world for whom a 4-minute mile will never be possible, no matter how much they believe in it or in their own potential!
Belief alone is just belief. Thought alone is just thought. Thoughts aren't magic; nothing (external) happens by pure thought.
Actually all actions by humans first are thoughts.1 -
Title from the article:
http://news.health.com/2015/06/26/can-negative-thinking-make-you-sick/
So cynics take heart—you have control over your attitude (and your well-being). As Simon-Thomas put it: “We can be deliberate about shifting our habits of feeling and thinking in the world.”
I dunno - worth discussing good people of Myfitnesspal?[/quote]
I see your intent with this and in many ways you are right... but it is not quite right. It is true that your psyche affects your physical health but it's not quite so black and white. I 7 am all for offering self help to those seeking a more positive path. I do believe it opens your eyes to more beauty and life's doors to you... but...
...positive thinking isn't a cure all or protective bubble like many think. ... it help it can't protect you from bad luck, random chance or genetic illness. I do better bc i have a good attitude but I didnt get my problems from a bad attitude. I have a rare disorder and was in an atv accident. I am constantly having surgeries or injections... without pain meds i don't know how i would cope. I personally can tell people that a good attitude is a valuable tool that brightens your days and lets you get more out of life. 100% BUT not being positive in and of itself does not keep you from getting sick nor is it solely responsible for illness or other misfortune. There is a danger of falsely believing people are protected by good perspectives and people who are unwell somehow bringing it on themselves.
Change your mindset if you want to experience life differently... not to solely to protect yourself from things you hope to control but cant.0 -
paperbeagle wrote: »Title from the article:
http://news.health.com/2015/06/26/can-negative-thinking-make-you-sick/
So cynics take heart—you have control over your attitude (and your well-being). As Simon-Thomas put it: “We can be deliberate about shifting our habits of feeling and thinking in the world.”
I dunno - worth discussing good people of Myfitnesspal?
I see your intent with this and in many ways you are right... but it is not quite right. It is true that your psyche affects your physical health but it's not quite so black and white. I 7 am all for offering self help to those seeking a more positive path. I do believe it opens your eyes to more beauty and life's doors to you... but...
...positive thinking isn't a cure all or protective bubble like many think. ... it help it can't protect you from bad luck, random chance or genetic illness. I do better bc i have a good attitude but I didnt get my problems from a bad attitude. I have a rare disorder and was in an atv accident. I am constantly having surgeries or injections... without pain meds i don't know how i would cope. I personally can tell people that a good attitude is a valuable tool that brightens your days and lets you get more out of life. 100% BUT not being positive in and of itself does not keep you from getting sick nor is it solely responsible for illness or other misfortune. There is a danger of falsely believing people are protected by good perspectives and people who are unwell somehow bringing it on themselves.
Change your mindset if you want to experience life differently... not to solely to protect yourself from things you hope to control but cant.[/quote]
Spot on, and well said.1 -
Stress can cause physical symptoms - absolutely. I've been there many times.
Stress is not only caused by negative thinking, though. As a previous poster pointed out, major positive events can cause stress too.
Researchers have long noted that clinical depression mimics physical illness - you become withdrawn, you want to stay in bed, you may be in pain, etc. That doesn't mean that depression causes actual illness, it mimics illness. One underlying cause of the symptoms of both physical illness and depression is inflammation. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/2015/03/how-strong-is-the-link-between-inflammation-and-depression/
Also, people who have been clinically depressed have shrinkage in the hippocampus in their brain. It actually becomes smaller. This can impact brain function. http://m.ign.com/articles/2015/07/10/study-finds-link-with-prolonged-depression-and-brain-shrinkage0 -
most definately1
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singingflutelady wrote: »Isn't rather natural to be struggling a bit as a result of an illness? I certainly hope you get well fast zcb94.
Yes it totally is. I have severe fistulizing crohn's disease and I went through the grieving process. Add in the fact that there is tons of shame and stigma with my disease it's quite easy to get depressed about it but I try to be as positive as poss
I totally get this. I also suffer from a similar gut condition and a big part of it is coming to terms with the loss of my old self.
My concern about the negative thinking makes you sick thing is, it can lead to sick people feeling blamed as if it's somehow their fault they became ill. I get this a lot- told to stay positive and keep fighting etc but,while my condition is often made worse by stress,stress has not caused it (at least I believe there is no causal link)0 -
http://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/mindfulness-meditation-slows-progression-53819Creswell and his colleagues ran an eight-week mindfulness-based stress-reduction (MBSR) meditation program and compared it to a one-day MBSR control seminar, using a stressed and ethnically diverse sample of 48 HIV-positive adults in Los Angeles. Participants in the eight-week group showed no loss of CD4 T cells, indicating that mindfulness meditation training can buffer declines. In contrast, the control group showed significant declines in CD4 T cells from pre-study to post-study. Such declines are a characteristic hallmark of HIV progression.1
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I agree that stress can cause negative health effects, but I wouldn't assume that pessimism equals more stress, or that optimism equals less stress. Anecdotally I have found that those who preach optimism and the power of positive thinking the most tend to be the most stressed out when the kittens hit the fan. Specifically I noticed it a few months ago when Hurricane Matthew hit my home town. I have a reputation as one of those icky pessimists, but when the hurricane was imminent I wasn't stressed at all, and it was all of those positive-meme-and-Bible-verse-sharing people who were the most panicky.
I also have a problem with the inherent victim blaming that goes with nonsense like The Secret. If bad things are happening to you then it must be your fault-- you didn't think enough happy thoughts.
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ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »I agree that stress can cause negative health effects, but I wouldn't assume that pessimism equals more stress, or that optimism equals less stress. Anecdotally I have found that those who preach optimism and the power of positive thinking the most tend to be the most stressed out when the kittens hit the fan. Specifically I noticed it a few months ago when Hurricane Matthew hit my home town. I have a reputation as one of those icky pessimists, but when the hurricane was imminent I wasn't stressed at all, and it was all of those positive-meme-and-Bible-verse-sharing people who were the most panicky.
I also have a problem with the inherent victim blaming that goes with nonsense like The Secret. If bad things are happening to you then it must be your fault-- you didn't think enough happy thoughts.ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »I agree that stress can cause negative health effects, but I wouldn't assume that pessimism equals more stress, or that optimism equals less stress. Anecdotally I have found that those who preach optimism and the power of positive thinking the most tend to be the most stressed out when the kittens hit the fan. Specifically I noticed it a few months ago when Hurricane Matthew hit my home town. I have a reputation as one of those icky pessimists, but when the hurricane was imminent I wasn't stressed at all, and it was all of those positive-meme-and-Bible-verse-sharing people who were the most panicky.
I also have a problem with the inherent victim blaming that goes with nonsense like The Secret. If bad things are happening to you then it must be your fault-- you didn't think enough happy thoughts.
I do not know the source at this time but the report indicated pessimism was associated with a longer life span. I guess the nature of the pessimism would be a factor. "Hope for the best yet be prepared for the worse" works for me. Testing the back up generator and getting some fuel stock piled is less stressful to me than just saying the ice storm will miss us. Thankfully we were 40 miles south of the current ice storm but that was not the case in 2009.
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I have always taken a "prepare as best you can and then realize that you can't control everything and let it go" mindset. I don't really think of that as pessimism but since it's not cheery optimism I get a lot of flak for it. Tbh I think I'm just a contrarian-- I react against the pressure to look on the sunny side, but if people around me are pessimistic then I immediately take on a more optimistic outlook. In my day-to-day life I'd categorize myself as a cynical optimist. My sense of humor is sardonic and sarcastic, but at the end of the day I have confidence in my ability to handle whatever comes along.
Also this thread made me think of that saying-- show me a cynic and I'll show you a disappointed idealist. Something like that. I think most people are probably a mix of both, depending on circumstances.2 -
I like this a lot. I operate much the same, and it drives my wife crazy lol.ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »I have always taken a "prepare as best you can and then realize that you can't control everything and let it go" mindset. I don't really think of that as pessimism but since it's not cheery optimism I get a lot of flak for it. Tbh I think I'm just a contrarian-- I react against the pressure to look on the sunny side, but if people around me are pessimistic then I immediately take on a more optimistic outlook. In my day-to-day life I'd categorize myself as a cynical optimist. My sense of humor is sardonic and sarcastic, but at the end of the day I have confidence in my ability to handle whatever comes along.
Also this thread made me think of that saying-- show me a cynic and I'll show you a disappointed idealist. Something like that. I think most people are probably a mix of both, depending on circumstances.
I picked up an old saying years ago that still works for me today.
"90% of what I worry about never happens. The 10% left over happens too fast for me to get ready for it."
Don't sweat the small stuff, prepare for the big stuff best you can.
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chocolate_owl wrote: »I think this paragraph from the article is a more likely explanation for chronic health issues correlated with negative moods:It could also be that people who feel bad—be it depressed, stressed, cynical, or otherwise—may also be more likely to smoke or drink alcohol, or less likely to be physically active, all things that can affect your health, of course. Or it’s possible that negative emotions might be an early symptom of a health problem, rather than a cause.
If you believe the world's a terrible place or everyone is out to get you, do you have as much motivation to take care of yourself?
I do think battling mental illness like depression or anxiety for a long time can lead to other physical issues, but I don't like lumping that into the same category of negative emotions the way this article does. Is there anything to suggest being cynical or bitter can be categorized as a mental illness, or is it the result of experiences and upbringing?
I have been dealing with depression for many years, and anxiety disorder and PTSD for 8.5 years now - since the loss of my 5.5-year-old son. I do take medication; otherwise, I would not be able to function "normally." Stress from outside sources (I just escaped a grossly stressful job that was causing a major increase in the number of migraines I was dealing with and alternating loss of appetite and binge eating) can certainly cause cynicism and bitterness; they are not in and of themselves mental illnesses. But they definitely can impact your health.
By the time I left my previous job just over a month ago, I really didn't care about much of anything. I had to force myself to take a shower; I did little to nothing with my hair and wore minimal makeup; I did just enough laundry to get by (leaving piles yet to be done); I'd eat junk food from vending machines all day long, then not eat supper at night; instead of doing things around the house, I'd just sit around and read (thanks, Amazon Prime); I'd be wake until 1:00 AM or later, then have to drag myself out of bed to get ready to another day of hell at work.
Before things totally went to hell, I was already overweight and for my height considered obese - about 3 years ago, however, I got my first Fitbit and found MFP and lost 30 pounds. As the stress crept in, my motivation crept out. I have managed to stay within +/- 5 lbs of the weight I'd gotten down to somehow (still in obese category). My new job has alleviated the stress and I'm starting to care about myself again. Unfortunately, I just found out my cholesterol numbers are high so I'm back here to make changes. I know that my eating habits and lack of exercise from the "don't give a f***" period wreaked havoc with my health. Now it's up to me to fix it. And I have the support of an awesome group of friends, which helps me push away from the cynicism and bitterness.1 -
As Gamliela said, things simply are. It's our own perceptions that label things as good or bad.
For example, the house at the end of the block catches fire and burns to the ground. A casual passer by might say, thats awful somebody's house burned down". The neighbors might say, "Thank God that vacant rat infested drug house burned down". Which impression is correct?
If you get laid off your job, that's labeled as bad. If you end up getting a better paying job that you enjoy that's a good thing. Was getting laid off (a perceived bad thing) actually the best thing that could have happened in retrospect?
A house burned down. A job was lost. These things happened. They are neither good nor bad.
In my view the notion of negative visualization falls apart when dealing with larger issues. The loss of a loved one cannot be easily dismissed with "things simply are".
Apologies to Gamliela for stepping in. Hopefully you won't perceive it as a bad thing.
I don't believe anyone can be neutral in every situation. It's our perceptions of the people, things, and events around us that make us who we are to an extent.
And no, you cannot deal with the loss of a loved one as something that simply is. If you can, I would venture to say that there is something wrong with you. My young son's death 8.5 years ago ripped me apart and I know that I will never be able to pick up all of the pieces, much less say "that's just the way it is."1 -
ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »I have always taken a "prepare as best you can and then realize that you can't control everything and let it go" mindset.
I love this, and it's what I aspire to, although I am not always successful.
My parents have radically different perspectives, both messed up (IMO). My mother (probably most influential on me growing up) simply assumes that the worst will always happen. Her justification is that then you are never disappointed and might be pleasantly surprised, but IME it precludes risk taking and aiming high and tends to result in just being always negative, without really helping with stress (I think she has an underlying anger about life not working out, expectations or no). My dad just assumes that everything will be fine, or did until he got older and started buying into "the country is going to hell in a handbasket" stuff, sigh). He takes risks he should not, although he's managed to land on his feel more than he probably deserves.
Anyway, it was a confusing and stressful combination as a kid. I am not sure how much either (or anyone) controls outlook, though -- there's depression and bipolar on both sides, so I kind of wonder how much outlook is just inborn.1 -
choklityum wrote: »I have been dealing with depression for many years, and anxiety disorder and PTSD for 8.5 years now - since the loss of my 5.5-year-old son.
I'm so sorry. I can't imagine how painful that must be.
Have you read The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk? I do not know a single person with PTSD, myself included, who doesn't swear by that book. It is a game changer.
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choklityum wrote: »
As Gamliela said, things simply are. It's our own perceptions that label things as good or bad.
For example, the house at the end of the block catches fire and burns to the ground. A casual passer by might say, thats awful somebody's house burned down". The neighbors might say, "Thank God that vacant rat infested drug house burned down". Which impression is correct?
If you get laid off your job, that's labeled as bad. If you end up getting a better paying job that you enjoy that's a good thing. Was getting laid off (a perceived bad thing) actually the best thing that could have happened in retrospect?
A house burned down. A job was lost. These things happened. They are neither good nor bad.
In my view the notion of negative visualization falls apart when dealing with larger issues. The loss of a loved one cannot be easily dismissed with "things simply are".
Apologies to Gamliela for stepping in. Hopefully you won't perceive it as a bad thing.
I don't believe anyone can be neutral in every situation. It's our perceptions of the people, things, and events around us that make us who we are to an extent.
And no, you cannot deal with the loss of a loved one as something that simply is. If you can, I would venture to say that there is something wrong with you. My young son's death 8.5 years ago ripped me apart and I know that I will never be able to pick up all of the pieces, much less say "that's just the way it is."
I don't think - at least for me - that the implication is that one can be neutral in every situation. One can recognize that facts "simply are" without feeling neutral about them.
I'm definitely one of those "people are disturbed not by things but by the views they take of them" kinds of people, philosophically. Admittedly, I've not been through a tragedy like yours, but I've been through some Stuff (my husband's cancer death at age 45, my own later stage III cancer diagnosis at age 44 are just a couple of examples).
The point to me is twofold:- This view helps me realize in my gut that while others may sympathize or empathize, they are not having the same reaction. Their lives go on just as before - improbable though my personal emotions may make that feel.
- Because the core of my reaction is my reaction, not the event itself, it does imply that I have some level of influence over how things roll on from that point, intellectually or behaviorally if not always emotionally. Inherently, I have more influence over my reaction than anyone else does, even if I don't have total control. The facts can't change (in a case like these), only my reaction can.
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I like this a lot. I operate much the same, and it drives my wife crazy lol.ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »I have always taken a "prepare as best you can and then realize that you can't control everything and let it go" mindset. I don't really think of that as pessimism but since it's not cheery optimism I get a lot of flak for it. Tbh I think I'm just a contrarian-- I react against the pressure to look on the sunny side, but if people around me are pessimistic then I immediately take on a more optimistic outlook. In my day-to-day life I'd categorize myself as a cynical optimist. My sense of humor is sardonic and sarcastic, but at the end of the day I have confidence in my ability to handle whatever comes along.
Also this thread made me think of that saying-- show me a cynic and I'll show you a disappointed idealist. Something like that. I think most people are probably a mix of both, depending on circumstances.
I picked up an old saying years ago that still works for me today.
"90% of what I worry about never happens. The 10% left over happens too fast for me to get ready for it."
Don't sweat the small stuff, prepare for the big stuff best you can.
Why does it drive your wife crazy? Is she a sunny optimist?0 -
ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »
I like this a lot. I operate much the same, and it drives my wife crazy lol.ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »I have always taken a "prepare as best you can and then realize that you can't control everything and let it go" mindset. I don't really think of that as pessimism but since it's not cheery optimism I get a lot of flak for it. Tbh I think I'm just a contrarian-- I react against the pressure to look on the sunny side, but if people around me are pessimistic then I immediately take on a more optimistic outlook. In my day-to-day life I'd categorize myself as a cynical optimist. My sense of humor is sardonic and sarcastic, but at the end of the day I have confidence in my ability to handle whatever comes along.
Also this thread made me think of that saying-- show me a cynic and I'll show you a disappointed idealist. Something like that. I think most people are probably a mix of both, depending on circumstances.
I picked up an old saying years ago that still works for me today.
"90% of what I worry about never happens. The 10% left over happens too fast for me to get ready for it."
Don't sweat the small stuff, prepare for the big stuff best you can.
Why does it drive your wife crazy? Is she a sunny optimist?
It's all play - nothing gets this woman down lol. It's kind of a twisted little joke between us, who stays sunnier the longest. Sounds weird, but we have lots of fun with it. 1 -
ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »
I like this a lot. I operate much the same, and it drives my wife crazy lol.ILiftHeavyAcrylics wrote: »I have always taken a "prepare as best you can and then realize that you can't control everything and let it go" mindset. I don't really think of that as pessimism but since it's not cheery optimism I get a lot of flak for it. Tbh I think I'm just a contrarian-- I react against the pressure to look on the sunny side, but if people around me are pessimistic then I immediately take on a more optimistic outlook. In my day-to-day life I'd categorize myself as a cynical optimist. My sense of humor is sardonic and sarcastic, but at the end of the day I have confidence in my ability to handle whatever comes along.
Also this thread made me think of that saying-- show me a cynic and I'll show you a disappointed idealist. Something like that. I think most people are probably a mix of both, depending on circumstances.
I picked up an old saying years ago that still works for me today.
"90% of what I worry about never happens. The 10% left over happens too fast for me to get ready for it."
Don't sweat the small stuff, prepare for the big stuff best you can.
Why does it drive your wife crazy? Is she a sunny optimist?
It's all play - nothing gets this woman down lol. It's kind of a twisted little joke between us, who stays sunnier the longest. Sounds weird, but we have lots of fun with it.
Sounds healthy to me.
edited to add, that wasn't sarcasm. 100% genuine.0
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