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CICO is not the whole equation
Replies
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Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.11 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
^^^ This
I'm baffled by how hard this is for people to understand.7 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
Yep, this.
For me personally, I don't have a long, dark angsty relationship with food. I've always eaten what I wanted and have never associated guilt or other negative emotions with certain foods, (except for during my short lived paleo experiment....). I've also only lost the extra weight the one time, so no yo-yoing/falling of the wagon/jumping from one plan to the next etc.
My issue was I didn't understand how CICO worked, and more specifically- what the words 'portion size' actually meant
Once I got that sorted out though I lost the weight, improved all my health markers and now maintain while still eating all the foods I like. I never experience urgent hunger/cravings, I don't feel guilty by anything I eat and I truly enjoy how I'm doing things. 7 -
geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »geneticexpectations wrote: »
What? That's your slam dunk? Your claim is worthless unless you are willing, or able to show us those said scans and all the context of each patient (diet and lifestyle) that goes with them...
No wasn't meant to be a slam dunk, wham bham thank you ma'am, end of story, and although it was one line, it wasn't meant to be a one liner. Just the most powerful truth as I see it with my own eyes.
But with respect to the info I have at my disposal, it is by far the most powerful demonstration to me. But of course, it has to be limited to just me. Or else privacy laws would have me incarcerated!
So, yes, to you my claim is in fact worthless, unless you are willing to take a leap of faith. Not sure why it is such a huge leap of faith though. You already believe that in general eating less is a good thing, and you seem to believe in the concept that certain foods provide value from a nutrition standpoint. I'm just not sure why it is such a massive woo-like crazymaking stretch to also consider that most foods created with heavy artificial influence actually can be harmful. And there's really nothing to lose by giving up certain foods except taste... and that taste actually turns from positive to negative once the food is eliminated for a period of time. The only thing in my mind (I guess I have to fill in the blanks) to explain this reluctance to consider this concept is that there is an emotional or neurochemical connection/attachment (or perhaps dependence) on having these foods around to warrant a denial to even consider that they may not be compatible with our physiology.
And yes, we cna put together a patient's history with their scan findings, which are NOT subtle.
You assume I have not tried this already while coming to my own conclusion...
No, I think I have read before that you did try way the of eating that I currently do. Or maybe another poster said that about you, I'm not sure.
But I have to ask... was your barometer of success purely fat loss (because clearly by your profile pic, you have achieved that)?? Because that's the point I'm getting at, is that fat loss isn't the whole story of health. Now, if you feel better overall doing what you are doing now and a primal way of eating just didn't agree with you, well, you can't argue with that and everyone's different.
I'm just arguing that as a general trend (not towards you specifically) I'm not sure why it is so taboo to suggest that laying off junk may be a good idea for health given what's at stake... and given that patients cannot see what is inside them, regardless of how they feel or how they look on the outside. The difference can be quite dramatic.
When I tried paleo (3 yrs), physically, I felt no different. The only thing that changed was my cholesterol went up (total, HDL and LDL). Cholesterol ratios were the same so I was not all that concerned. One thing of note that did happen to me was my eating became a bit dis-ordered. I was developing a bit of orthorexia...
Ah, fair enough. Orthorexia would mean your enjoyment of the process was hindered and that certainly isn't a good thing.
Regarding cholesterol, the only real ratio I ever get concerned about is HDL/Trigs. And really, this is mostly about the trigs. Your lipid response is actually very typical for paleo primal, and that's good. LDL is virtually meaningless. LDL lipoproteins and particle size are more of a story. Usually when grains and added sugars are eliminated, average LDL particle size increases and the rise in LDL is due to the larger less dense LDL (which is innocuous). Total C usually increases more due to increases in HDL I find. New literature is even suggesting that increase LDL is protective for dementia, and 3/4 of MI (heart attack) patients have "normal" or "low" LDL. Focusing on LDL is seriously backwards (and unfortunately still popular) medicine.
Yet, the most profitable drugs in the world are statins - designed to target lowering of LDL.
NOW
THAT
IS
A
CONSPIRACY
Then you need to learn about those who have familial hypercholesterolemia . high LDLs and triglycerides can kill someone like me, I tried everything to get my cholesterol down including changing how I ate, exercise, and taking meds, in the past nothing worked. Im on a low fat diet and eat a lot of carbs including grains,and take a statin, and for the first time since I was diagnosed my triglycerides are in a normal range(LCHF raised them through the roof).
my LDL is close to being in the normal range and Im feeling better. you cannot stand there and say that LDL is virtually meaningless,.maybe in general population but not for those of us who have FH.Heart attack risk for someone like me is higher than those with just a regular cholesterol issue. many can bring theirs down with just diet and exercise. I cannot however.7 -
Maybe we can't agree on the equation because we're all looking for different sums. 1
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Why is it easier to blame crazy conspiracy theories than to take responsibility for your own actions?
11 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
Another endorsement for this. ^^^^5 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
And one more endorsement!
This thread is making my head spin, it's circling endlessly around the same few egocentric concepts, regardless of science and common sense.
We all agree the only way to lose weight is to eat less than you burn (CI<CO) but
I see a lot of fat people with health problems so clearly CICO doesn't work so
Telling people to eat less and/or move more is wrong
The only way to lose weight is to eat like ME because
That's the way I eat and I'm healthy
So there
Did I miss anything?16 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
And one more endorsement!
This thread is making my head spin, it's circling endlessly around the same few egocentric concepts, regardless of science and common sense.
We all agree the only way to lose weight is to eat less than you burn (CI<CO) but
I see a lot of fat people with health problems so clearly CICO doesn't work so
Telling people to eat less and/or move more is wrong
The only way to lose weight is to eat like ME because
That's the way I eat and I'm healthy
So there
Did I miss anything?
"The people who disagree with me are passive aggressive and hostile".13 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
And one more endorsement!
This thread is making my head spin, it's circling endlessly around the same few egocentric concepts, regardless of science and common sense.
We all agree the only way to lose weight is to eat less than you burn (CI<CO) but
I see a lot of fat people with health problems so clearly CICO doesn't work so
Telling people to eat less and/or move more is wrong
The only way to lose weight is to eat like ME because
That's the way I eat and I'm healthy
So there
Did I miss anything?
You forgot:
"sure if all you care about is weight loss, CICO will work, but if you want to be healthy, there is more to it than that"8 -
The CICO equation applies whether you losing weight, gaining weight or maintaining weight. HABITUAL BEHAVIOR is how whether or not someone follows the actual equation for any of those.Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
1. Control: If we feel deprived, we will inevitable "fall off the wagon" and eat what we have been craving. Since this was not planned we will mentally detach ourselves and ignore our conscience because it's telling us to stop. Then, it often becomes an all out binge. To me personally, it almost felt like an out of body experience because I was not in control and the reality of the situation was too painful to acknowledge.
2. Relationship: When we tell ourselves that certain foods are "bad", "junk", and "evil" and then want them or eat them, we then turn those labels back onto ourselves and we are now "bad", "junk", and "evil". The guilt and shame that comes from losing control, does far more damage to our health and goals than the calories we splurged on.
These two truths are at the core of why I struggled with my weight for half of my life and how I was able to lose over 100 lbs and maintain and lose another 30 over the last dozen years.
There most certainly is, more to losing weight than "eat less and exercise more".
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
Maybe it's time to go back to the abacus.tabletop_joe wrote: »Maybe we can't agree on the equation because we're all looking for different sums.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
5 -
annaskiski wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
^^^ This
I'm baffled by how hard this is for people to understand.
Yes! CICO is the basic black and white answer, of course, it is! I completely agree that ultimately losing weight comes done to the CICO formula.
Yet if it was truly that simple, why are getting bigger and bigger? Why do 95% of us who lose weight gain it all back?
Sometimes you have to be able to think a bit deeper than what's on the surface. If you only go as far as CICO, you'll fail to comprehend the complexity of why losing weight is so difficult. Understanding the "big picture" is how you can go from a lifetime of obesity to forever fit. That is what I accomplished. But, it only happened after I stopped sacrificing to the CICO god by trying to sweat and willpower my way to success.0 -
even a person like me with a metabolic disorder loses weight with CICO,I just have to find out how many calories I lose at, and how many I need to maintain. right now eating 1712 calories ,Im maintaining my weight.
I lost weight counting calories though and thats what helped me. I lost some weight before coming here,started eating healthier and gained back half my weight. came here and starting counting calories and weighing my food and it came off and then some.
In almost 5 years I have not gained any back except for water weight.so CICO works for even people with my health issue3 -
A thing can be simple in theory yet difficult in practice. CICO is a perfect example of this. In theory it is very simple, it is what it is. Achieving it on the other hand can prove very difficult for many.14
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Again, it's behavioral. If people stuck to the behavior that got them down to a good weight, they would stay at that good weight. If they go back to the behavior that got them heavy, they get heavy.Russellb97 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
^^^ This
I'm baffled by how hard this is for people to understand.
Yes! CICO is the basic black and white answer, of course, it is! I completely agree that ultimately losing weight comes done to the CICO formula.
Yet if it was truly that simple, why are getting bigger and bigger? Why do 95% of us who lose weight gain it all back?
Sometimes you have to be able to think a bit deeper than what's on the surface. If you only go as far as CICO, you'll fail to comprehend the complexity of why losing weight is so difficult. Understanding the "big picture" is how you can go from a lifetime of obesity to forever fit. That is what I accomplished. But, it only happened after I stopped sacrificing to the CICO god by trying to sweat and willpower my way to success.
Case in point. A person can get gastric bypass and lose a lot of weight due to extreme CICO. However, it they CONTINUALLY go back to old eating habits, they CAN regain weight even after the surgery.
People will likely have to deal with the habit that caused them to gain weight IF they don't want to regain.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
6 -
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The difference between overweight people and non-overweight people is those who aren't trying to lose weight are not worried, stressed, frustrated, ashamed, or pre-occupied with what they are going to eat and when they will eat it. It's food controlling us or us controlling our food.
Studies have shown that overweight people exercise more often than non-overweight and non-overweight people eat more junk for than those who are overweight.
I'll tell you what, being free from the "diligence" and pre-occupation with food is almost as satisfying as losing 130 lbs.
3 -
Russellb97 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
^^^ This
I'm baffled by how hard this is for people to understand.
Yes! CICO is the basic black and white answer, of course, it is! I completely agree that ultimately losing weight comes done to the CICO formula.
Yet if it was truly that simple, why are getting bigger and bigger? Why do 95% of us who lose weight gain it all back?
Sometimes you have to be able to think a bit deeper than what's on the surface. If you only go as far as CICO, you'll fail to comprehend the complexity of why losing weight is so difficult. Understanding the "big picture" is how you can go from a lifetime of obesity to forever fit. That is what I accomplished. But, it only happened after I stopped sacrificing to the CICO god by trying to sweat and willpower my way to success.
This is why I said, way, way back pages ago that CICO wasn't the only equation.
You're talking about different aspects of weight loss that don't involve energy balance, much in the way people talk about nutrition. It doesn't detract from the need to effect a negative energy balance to lose weight.
In other words, this isn't an either/or situation. It's not CICO or all the things you're talking about. It's CICO and all the things you're talking about. They go hand in hand. Psychology and habit are separate issues to energy balance and shouldn't be confused with it or considered to trump it. They're all pieces of the same puzzle.8 -
Russellb97 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »Russellb97 wrote: »Losing weight and keeping it off is far more about your relationship with food and being in control over hunger and cravings than CICO.
CICO is how it works. Fixing your relationship with food, etc., is how you make sure you are where you want to be with CICO. If you seem them as incompatible things or opposed to each other, I think you are misunderstanding what people mean by CICO. It's not a type of diet.
As for how to achieve CICO, what strategically will work, it differs depending on the person. There are some good tips that work for many, but there's no one-size-fits all.
^^^ This
I'm baffled by how hard this is for people to understand.
Yes! CICO is the basic black and white answer, of course, it is! I completely agree that ultimately losing weight comes done to the CICO formula.
Yet if it was truly that simple, why are getting bigger and bigger? Why do 95% of us who lose weight gain it all back?
Sometimes you have to be able to think a bit deeper than what's on the surface. If you only go as far as CICO, you'll fail to comprehend the complexity of why losing weight is so difficult. Understanding the "big picture" is how you can go from a lifetime of obesity to forever fit. That is what I accomplished. But, it only happened after I stopped sacrificing to the CICO god by trying to sweat and willpower my way to success.
Simply put... fat loss is hard. Staying fit takes more energy than going out with friends or ordering in, while making good decisions consistently. Life tends to get in the way and people address it with food. But to be honest, not everyone has a bad relationship with food. This is why I lost 50 lbs and have kept it off. It's why for the past 4 or 5 years, despite my wife being a regular in the hospital, I have figured out how I can workout and eat right when I am not, to keep it off. Now, I am just working on the vanity pounds.4
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