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CICO is not the whole equation
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RobynTheresa
Posts: 15 Member
in Debate Club
I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
This is NOT to say one cannot and should not have treats. I certainly do. I have some Lindt dark chocolate in the fridge, a bottle of Black Bacardi lying around and some 140 ml Mars ice-creams in the freezer (131 calories they are). But I have to earn them.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
This is NOT to say one cannot and should not have treats. I certainly do. I have some Lindt dark chocolate in the fridge, a bottle of Black Bacardi lying around and some 140 ml Mars ice-creams in the freezer (131 calories they are). But I have to earn them.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
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OK....28
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RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
CICO has nothing to do with optimal health. It's a written simplification of how the body creates or utilities bodyfat. No more, no less. The only people that confuse this issue are the people who don't understand it.Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
Who are these proponents of an all big Mac and coke diet, and where are he people that are following this all big Mac and coke diet?This is NOT to say one cannot and should not have treats. I certainly do. I have some Lindt dark chocolate in the fridge, a bottle of Black Bacardi lying around and some 140 ml Mars ice-creams in the freezer (131 calories they are). But I have to earn them.
So big macs and coke are out, but chocolate, alcohol and ice cream are in. That's rather arbitrary.
As long as you earn them?
Earning food is rather disordered.If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
So your advice is to net sub 1200 calories. VLCD are not permitted here.Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
Have you done an extensive survey of most people?
How about just creating a dietary intake containing foods you enjoy that meets your a calorie, macro and micronutritional goals.
Maybe that includes a big Mac.97 -
CICO states that you have to burn more than you eat in order to lose. That us all it says. And this statement is not a matter of personal opinion. It is a law of physics. This IS the whole equation.
How you go about achieving this is your personal choice and has nothing to do with the validity of the CICO equation.
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RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
This^
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.29 -
RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
This^
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.
You are confusing health with weight loss. Can you lose weight eating as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long you are in a deficit? Absolutely, the scientific laws of the universe demand it. Is it necessarily the healthiest option? No one is claiming it to be. Two. Separate. Issues.109 -
Wynterbourne wrote: »RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
This^
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.
You are confusing health with weight loss. Can you lose weight eating as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long you are in a deficit? Absolutely, the scientific laws of the universe demand it. Is it necessarily the healthiest option? No one is claiming it to be. Two. Separate. Issues.
Stress, poor health, and poor nutrition are contributors, and it can impact weight loss if one develops type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, sensitivities to food or auto immune troubles.11 -
Cityruss, I am not going to dissect your response. If you don't understand where I'm coming from, that's fine. Fell free to ask questions. At no point did I say CICO was not a valid formula. Of course it is simple physics. My point is ALONE it is not NECESSARILY healthy and I read way to many comments on these forums saying it is.
And yes, chocolate, alcohol and ice-cream are perfectly fine IN MODERATION. Yes, earn them - if I have spare calories, I can have a treat. Your objection would be?
Not sure why you think my earning is "disordered", but nevermind.
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Wynterbourne wrote: »You are confusing health with weight loss. Can you lose weight eating as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long you are in a deficit? Absolutely, the scientific laws of the universe demand it. Is it necessarily the healthiest option? No one is claiming it to be. Two. Separate. Issues.
Only two seperate issues if one doesn't care about their health. If they do, then those issues go hand in hand, why does anyone try to lose weight? For their HEALTH! If they are doing it to get on the cover of Vogue, bad reason.19 -
RobynTheresa wrote: »Wynterbourne wrote: »You are confusing health with weight loss. Can you lose weight eating as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long you are in a deficit? Absolutely, the scientific laws of the universe demand it. Is it necessarily the healthiest option? No one is claiming it to be. Two. Separate. Issues.
Only two seperate issues if one doesn't care about their health. If they do, then those issues go hand in hand, why does anyone try to lose weight? For their HEALTH! If they are doing it to get on the cover of Vogue, bad reason.
might be a bad reason, but it is some peoples motivation.
You're flogging a dead horse with this one, its CICO for weight loss, macros/micros for health. end of.66 -
Not so, Travistocktoad, but you are welcome to your opinion.
I still do not see where I said CICO was not required for weight loss.
Interesting how people interpret according to their own agendas.15 -
It's not the whole equation. It is not simple addition and subtraction. There are other variables that influence the calculations. Change the variables and change the formula.4
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RobynTheresa wrote: »Not so, Travistocktoad, but you are welcome to your opinion.
I still do not see where I said CICO was not required for weight loss.
Interesting how people interpret according to their own agendas.
whats 'not so'?
you didn't say that, you said that care over macros/micros is needed for weight loss, and it isnt.16 -
It's not the whole equation. It is not simple addition and subtraction. There are other variables that influence the calculations. Change the variables and change the formula.
A subtraction does not become something else by changing the variables. X - Y = Z regardless what X and Y are.RobynTheresa wrote: »Not so, Travistocktoad, but you are welcome to your opinion.
I still do not see where I said CICO was not required for weight loss.
Interesting how people interpret according to their own agendas.
You said CICO was something that it is de facto not and never claimed to be and making strawmen left and right.21 -
Those who maintain that only calorie deficit matters often are actually saying the same thing you are in different words. I think these threads are often full of misunderstandings and miscommunications. The only difference is the way people look at certain foods.
Weight loss as a mechanism is a function of calories, and is purely that. This argument is often presented when someone claims that somehow the body can create energy out of thin air if you don't/do eat certain foods. This argument is a very specific reply to a very specific claim. It's meant to describe a mechanism, not a diet.
When it comes to dieting, of course we aren't just energy engines. We have other biological and psychological needs that go beyond storing and burning calories. Even the most avid CICO advocates will agree with you that eating all of your calories in low nutrition foods is 1) a recipe for nutrient deficiency and 2) a recipe for diet adherence fails due to hunger. You will never see anyone advocating that strawman living exclusively on soda. The CICO crowd may actually be the first people to point out the importance of nutrient rich foods. So we're all basically on the same page, but it's lost in misunderstandings.
Where paths do diverge is the way certain groups look at certain foods. One group may eliminate foods or nutrients because they are harmful and a poison and absolutely should not be eaten regardless of the rest of your diet, another group may limit them allowing "treats" because these damaging foods are not as damaging if not eaten as often or if the majority of your intake is healthy, and a third group may limit the amount or frequency of certain foods simply because they don't fit as neatly into their calorie budget or don't work well with their individual hunger patterns without explicit judgement calls and generalizations, so foods are not judged outside of the context of the diet as a whole. It's that third group that often miscommunicates its ideas as "nothing but calories matter" and is often the one misunderstood as saying "eat nothing but candy all day", and sometimes when people advocate eating healthfully they are misunderstood as saying "CICO does not apply".
Everyone is basically saying the same thing: for a healthy and sustainable diet eat reasonable amounts of the foods you like, focusing on nutritious foods and foods that fill you up.48 -
I'm saying that there is another factor or variable ex. (A)(X-Y)=?stevencloser wrote: »It's not the whole equation. It is not simple addition and subtraction. There are other variables that influence the calculations. Change the variables and change the formula.
A subtraction does not become something else by changing the variables. X - Y = Z regardless what X and Y are.
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What is this recent obsession with the mythical all Big Mac and soda diets? NO-ONE is advocating that. Ever.
CICO is the basic mathematical equation. And you use real world results to figure out what those two numbers are for yourself.
What you eat matters for health but not purely from a weight loss point of view. Saying that is not the same as "go hog wild on the calorie dense nutrient poor foods because yay CICO!".
Just stop. It's bull.37 -
RobynTheresa wrote: »Not so, Travistocktoad, but you are welcome to your opinion.
I still do not see where I said CICO was not required for weight loss.
Interesting how people interpret according to their own agendas.
You didn't say CICO was not required @RobynTheresa Once again people are not reading the post properly and jump to defend when anyone suggests eating a healthy diet.
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.
Me too @DebSozo I want to be at a healthy weight and have a healthy body feeding it with healthy foods.10 -
I've asked this before on threads like this and I'll ask it again.
Please provide evidence that there are regular forum users regularly telling people to eat what they want, regardless of nutrients and meeting macro and micro needs because that doesn't matter. Thus far I've had crickets to this request so fingers crossed this time.........38 -
Kinda feeling like this pretty rapidly devolved into one of the more pointless misinterpretations that I've read here so far. It's like both sides are saying the same thing, but one's speaking Spanish, one's speaking Greek, and they both forgot their Babel Fish.33
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VintageFeline wrote: »I've asked this before on threads like this and I'll ask it again.
Please provide evidence that there are regular forum users regularly telling people to eat what they want, regardless of nutrients and meeting macro and micro needs because that doesn't matter. Thus far I've had crickets to this request so fingers crossed this time.........
Just search "eat what you want" in the forums, there are plenty of replies saying "yes you can eat whatever you want" and there's no mention of other nutrients. Some people do mention nutrients, but a lot don't.4
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