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CICO is not the whole equation
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RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
This^
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.
1) This has probably been said (and ignored by you) at least a hundred times in various threads, but I'll repeat it once more for your benefit: Speaking purely in terms of weight loss, the only requirement is to establish/maintain a sustained caloric deficit. Macros and micros don't matter one bit. When speaking in terms of adherence, satiety, overall health and workout performance, macros and micros matter. "CICO" isn't a diet or a 'way of eating' - it's a simple equation which has been scientifically proven ad nauseum.
2) Nobody is saying that it's okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want to. Show me ONE post where anybody has said that. You're extrapolating your beliefs into a weak, non-existent, overexaggerated binary argument in an attempt to bolster your point.Wynterbourne wrote: »RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
This^
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.
You are confusing health with weight loss. Can you lose weight eating as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long you are in a deficit? Absolutely, the scientific laws of the universe demand it. Is it necessarily the healthiest option? No one is claiming it to be. Two. Separate. Issues.
Stress, poor health, and poor nutrition are contributors, and it can impact weight loss if one develops type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, sensitivities to food or auto immune troubles.
Sugar/refined flour does not cause type 2 diabetes. Metabolic syndrome is primarily correlated with obesity, not macro/micronutrient intake. More fearmongering and woo.
Also sugar doesn't cause most autoimmune diseases or food intolerances.12 -
RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
This is NOT to say one cannot and should not have treats. I certainly do. I have some Lindt dark chocolate in the fridge, a bottle of Black Bacardi lying around and some 140 ml Mars ice-creams in the freezer (131 calories they are). But I have to earn them.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
who is this mythical person that advocates for a diet of 100% big macs and coke????
CICO is a mathematical formula to lose weight, gain weight, or maintain weight. It says nothing about how one should eat, or what ones macros splits should be,etc, etc. It is just a formula to reach your goals.12 -
RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Perhaps you should read more carefully, as it's always said that protein matters for muscle retention (as does activity) and that nutrition matters for health.Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health.
I've never seen a post that recommended eating only BigMacs and Cokes or said that was healthy or adequate nutrition (let alone adequate for satiety for most). Please direct me to such a post, as I am surprised that others did not disagree with said poster and I would like to.This is NOT to say one cannot and should not have treats. I certainly do. I have some Lindt dark chocolate in the fridge, a bottle of Black Bacardi lying around and some 140 ml Mars ice-creams in the freezer (131 calories they are). But I have to earn them.
Why do I have to earn them? In fact, how do I earn them? I'm currently doing maintenance (don't eat back exercise calories, but estimate my exercise and add it to my goal in advance), and even when losing do the same (TDEE method).Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
I find it hard to believe that the average person is incapable of drinking enough water without actively trying and logging it (or that this matters for weight loss). I am always drinking something, usually water, and find the idea that I am not drinking enough rather silly, especially since you don't even know me.13 -
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns.
Hmm, so we are talking health.
I can eat as much sugar and refined flour as I want, since what I want is determined in part by nutritional concerns. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you want far more than you should have, nutritionally, and that eating it would mean (if your calories were on point) that you did not have a balanced, nutrient dense diet. Who has ever said here that you should nonetheless ignore health and consume excessive sugar and refined flour? Certainly not me and no one I've ever seen.
I doubt it would give the average person all the things you mention, but I agree that it's not good for health, and would result in a diet lacking in micronutrients and protein and healthy fats or other things we need, even if that person could keep a deficit and feel satisfied doing it (most can't, which again is why most wouldn't WANT to eat that way--your assumption that we do is odd).12 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns.
Hmm, so we are talking health.
I can eat as much sugar and refined flour as I want, since what I want is determined in part by nutritional concerns. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you want far more than you should have, nutritionally, and that eating it would mean (if your calories were on point) that you did not have a balanced, nutrient dense diet. Who has ever said here that you should nonetheless ignore health and consume excessive sugar and refined flour? Certainly not me and no one I've ever seen.
I doubt it would give the average person all the things you mention, but I agree that it's not good for health, and would result in a diet lacking in micronutrients and protein and healthy fats or other things we need, even if that person could keep a deficit and feel satisfied doing it (most can't, which again is why most wouldn't WANT to eat that way--your assumption that we do is odd).
Sometimes a strawman is all one has. But it usually doesn't contribute anything relevant to the discussion.11 -
VintageFeline wrote: »I've asked this before on threads like this and I'll ask it again.
Please provide evidence that there are regular forum users regularly telling people to eat what they want, regardless of nutrients and meeting macro and micro needs because that doesn't matter. Thus far I've had crickets to this request so fingers crossed this time.........
Just search "eat what you want" in the forums, there are plenty of replies saying "yes you can eat whatever you want" and there's no mention of other nutrients. Some people do mention nutrients, but a lot don't.
I have never, never, seen such a thread where most people did not mention nutrients or satiety or health. Some don't, because it gets redundant or because the question specifically says they aren't asking about that ("I know it matters for health, but otherwise does it matter for weight loss?"). Even in the latter case most of us still mention health.
It's a strawman intended to insultingly and falsely claim that those who talk about CICO don't care about nutrition and recommend idiotic things like a Coke and Big Mac diet (which IMO no one sensible would ever WANT to consume as their primary foods anyway).
I eat what I want, and what I want to eat are primarily nutrient-dense foods. I give others the benefit of the doubt to assume they also don't want to eat mainly donuts or whatever the strawman du jour happens to be. That would be a miserable diet.9 -
You're right. It isn't.
It's a good place to start though...4 -
Alyssa_Is_LosingIt wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »RobynTheresa wrote: »Cityruss, I am not going to dissect your response. If you don't understand where I'm coming from, that's fine. Fell free to ask questions. At no point did I say CICO was not a valid formula. Of course it is simple physics. My point is ALONE it is not NECESSARILY healthy and I read way to many comments on these forums saying it is.
And yes, chocolate, alcohol and ice-cream are perfectly fine IN MODERATION. Yes, earn them - if I have spare calories, I can have a treat. Your objection would be?
Not sure why you think my earning is "disordered", but nevermind.
You didn't want to dissect it, but it's a shame you ignored the extremely valid question of:
Who are these proponents of an all big Mac and coke diet, and where are he people that are following this all big Mac and coke diet?
Exactly. No one who makes the arguments like the OP ever answers this question. Ever.
Just like no one on these boards ever advises people to eat nothing but donuts and Big Macs within their calorie goals. Ever.
There is a difference in people saying "there are no inherently bad foods - it is overall diet that matters" and people saying "absolutely, eat all Pop-Tarts all the time - it'll be great!"
I am one of the biggest proponents on this board of "There Are No Bad Foods", since a diet of all Big Macs is just as bad as a diet of all broccoli. But no one eats that way, and no one on these boards advises anyone to eat that way. I don't understand where people get this idea from.
Exactly this.3 -
11 -
When people say I can "eat what I want" it has several meanings...
1. we don't know what they want
2. it may mean they don't restrict foods
3. maybe they have 5 m&M's not the whole bag
for some reason "eat what I want" get's interpreted as unlimited quantities of what some consider "bad" foods.9 -
When people say I can "eat what I want" it has several meanings...
1. we don't know what they want
2. it may mean they don't restrict foods
3. maybe they have 5 m&M's not the whole bag
for some reason "eat what I want" get's interpreted as unlimited quantities of what some consider "bad" foods.
I eat what I want, just not as much as I want.30 -
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frankly I'm amazed people continue fall for these trolls and continue to spread their wisdom as if they are actually going to change the mind of the OP who quite clearly doesn't give a rats @ss what anyone else thinks and is only here for the sensationalism of it all.
its a troll.11 -
When people say I can "eat what I want" it has several meanings...
1. we don't know what they want
2. it may mean they don't restrict foods
3. maybe they have 5 m&M's not the whole bag
for some reason "eat what I want" get's interpreted as unlimited quantities of what some consider "bad" foods.
I eat what I want, just not as much as I want.
This. I also eat what I want, I just control my portions and I may not eat it all in the same day/meal. There are many days when I want to eat something and I decide to have it the next day because it isn't going to fit well into the calories/macronutrients I've already eaten for the day.
8 -
Cheers man.
Just wish I had grown it when I was single. Bush attracts bush, ne'er I mean?
I'm talking about gardening you bunch of reprobates...
22 -
RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
This^
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.
1) This has probably been said (and ignored by you) at least a hundred times in various threads, but I'll repeat it once more for your benefit: Speaking purely in terms of weight loss, the only requirement is to establish/maintain a sustained caloric deficit. Macros and micros don't matter one bit. When speaking in terms of adherence, satiety, overall health and workout performance, macros and micros matter. "CICO" isn't a diet or a 'way of eating' - it's a simple equation which has been scientifically proven ad nauseum.
2) Nobody is saying that it's okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want to. Show me ONE post where anybody has said that. You're extrapolating your beliefs into a weak, non-existent, overexaggerated binary argument in an attempt to bolster your point.Wynterbourne wrote: »RobynTheresa wrote: »I've been watching the CICO discussions on this forum with interest. CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss. Healthy bodies function better, burn calories better, build lean muscle mass better.
Those who maintain it is a calorie deficit only that matters and eating Big Macs and Coke will suffice are overlooking the micronutrient balances required for optimal health. Magnesium, potassium, calcium, zinc, the vitamins. While young people may cope without the appropriate nutritional balance, they may pay for those deficits later in life.
If you are on a 1,200 calorie goal you do need to eat back your exercise calories. Yesterday I did 1.5 hours at the gym including 45 minutes of strength training which Garmin Connect kindly told me was worth 307 calories. I can't fuel that on 1,200 calories. Overall my food intake yesterday was 1,536 calories, but my net was 1,052 (my total active calories was 484). And yes I lost weight on the scales this morning.
I have auto-immune conditions, so am on a raft of medications. For months I was physically incapable of doing much due to these conditions. So healthy eating (with treats) has become my mantra. None of us know what our bodies may do in the future, or what is already lurking, waiting to strike. Take care of your bodies.
Oh, and drink more water. Most people aren't drinking nearly enough. The ones who are: terrific!!
This^
I experienced the same thing. I wouldn't have believed it could happen either. Until it happened to me. I came on MFP to try to get answers. Nutrition, fitness, and macros as well as CICO come into play.
People who are saying that it is okay to eat as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long as you are in a deficit will change their tune when they start experiencing auto immune issues, inflammation, fatigue, pre-diabetes, or other health concerns. I'm interested in my health and changing things around now while I'm in my 50s so I can live life pain free.
You are confusing health with weight loss. Can you lose weight eating as much sugar and refined flour as you want as long you are in a deficit? Absolutely, the scientific laws of the universe demand it. Is it necessarily the healthiest option? No one is claiming it to be. Two. Separate. Issues.
Stress, poor health, and poor nutrition are contributors, and it can impact weight loss if one develops type 2 diabetes, metabolic syndrome, sensitivities to food or auto immune troubles.
Sugar/refined flour does not cause type 2 diabetes. Metabolic syndrome is primarily correlated with obesity, not macro/micronutrient intake. More fearmongering and woo.
[ETA:] Didn't we just have a thread a few days ago where an OP castigated everybody else for eating Big Macs when her diary showed that she was eating pizza, donuts, chocolate and alcohol? But it was okay because she 'knew' they were bad for her while she was eating them? This looks pretty much like an exact rehash of the same argument.
THANK YOU!!!!!! Gold post right here.
Regarding your ETA... yeah, that woman was jut set out insult everyone who wasn't eating as she was, but it turns out her diary showed many of the foods she was ranting against. *shrug* It was very confusing.5 -
RobynTheresa wrote: »...CICO is definitely not a myth, however for optimal health it is not the only consideration for weight loss.
I'm not sure I agree. CICO is the only thing you need for weight loss. However, I am in agreement with you that for health, CICO is not the only thing you need. Building more muscle means your body burns calories more efficiently and even burns more just existing. I'm sure there's a break even point at which more muscle even means that you burn more calories than the average person which is a good thing. For optimal health you need a good mix of healthy fats, protein, and carbs. So I don't disagree with you 100%, just in the point at which more is needed than CICO for weight loss. For health and fitness, yes, more is needed, but for weight loss alone, I would have to disagree.
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The attitude you describe OP is what is espoused to counter the *kitten* about how you must avoid XYZ to lose weight, thats it. People who say that are just pointing out that there is no magic bullet where you just aviod this food and you auto-win the health lottery.
I don't think anyone believes for a second you can be healthy by just eating twinkies. People understand that you need to get a reasonable balance of foods for adequate nutrition, they just don't need to point that out because pretty much no one disagrees with that.
I think you are arguing against a person who simply doesn't exist. Can you find someone who actually believes what you seem to be claiming CICO proponents on the forums believe?14
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