Runners: Why so slow?
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As a not quite newbie runner any more, this thread has been great! Not that I'm surprised given that the majority of the contributors are those I'd ask for running advice anyway! :flowerforyou:3
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Well, personally i don't think i 'd be able to push myself hard at all my runs and not burn out. And i don't think it would be a very pleasant experience either.
I have 3 runs per week. One is for working on my distance, and running at 9 km/h for 15k would be pretty impossible and unpleasant. I feel tired when i finish my distance run, so i won't try going faster unless my body is capable enough.
My 2nd run of the week is a casual 45'-1h run at a steady, acceptable pace. Not too fast,not too slow. It works as a bridge, helping me recover from my long run,and preparing me for my speed run,which is the last run of the week. Then i have a "race" 5k run,competing against my best time. During that run i go all out, huffing ,puffing and all that. It's not very pleasant, but it's a way to track my progress and i give myself that extra push. But doing that 3 times a week? No thank you.2 -
If you're a regular runner, you should be mixing it up. Longer runs are generally slower so you can last the distance. Shorter runs, you can push the pace a bit. Usually the advice to run slower is given to new runners that are trying to build up a base fitness.0
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What I've noticed is that most people decide they want to run and get incredibly motivated to do so, and then reality starts to set in. For many people who have never been "runners" or are maybe 20 years removed from their track star days in high school, they try to do too much too soon and either end up frustrated or hurt. I was one of those people. Never good at running, decided to train for a 25k but didn't fully understand the commitment that running really is. To build the heart, leg, and respiratory strength to run fast and/or long distances takes time and hundreds of miles of repetition.
Most people tend to get frustrated fast. They don't want to accept that they're going to be slower than they want for awhile. They also look at ads of people running and smiling and think that that is how running always is. It's not. A lot of running, especially in the beginning, is finding your grit to push through the cramp, and the "I can't do this" that may constantly be in your head. It's telling yourself that it's one foot in front of the other over and over and over again.
Another aspect is safety. You don't want the person who hasn't broken a sweat in 10 years to jump on the treadmill and try to crank out 8 minute miles. That's how heart attacks happen. We tell them to slow down because they need to slowly build their legs' strength to carry them that distance as well as the cardiovascular strength to move a large volume of blood. As they build their ritual of consistently running, distance and pace increase. Problem is most people don't stick it out because we're stuck in that mindset of instant gratification and running is the exact opposite. You have to endure miles of suck to get to the good stuff.6 -
short answer: just mix it up, or you'll burn out.0
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Ok, so as a follow up then..... Are you experience runners spent/panting/DONE when you finish your goal distance? Never, sometimes, most of the time, always?
My runs have different purposes. I will be panting and spent at the end of some speed focused workouts. But after a long run meant to build endurance, no.
I didn't begin to do speed work until I had a solid base of mileage and endurance. IMO, those are the main things that newer runners should focus on, which is why you will so often see the advice for people to slow down.0 -
Ok, so as a follow up then..... Are you experience runners spent/panting/DONE when you finish your goal distance? Never, sometimes, most of the time, always?
Can't speak to the present - I'm working back from an injury, but when I was running regularly:
Never, unless I'm doing speedwork which is a once every couple of weeks thing.
Otherwise, I'm doing a recovery run, a pace run, or a long run where the goal is to increase mileage, not to wear myself out. If I hit any of these runs too hard, overall performance drops pretty much immediately and takes a while to come back without taking a break.
Going longer makes it possible for me to go faster at shorter distances - and those shorter distances get longer as well.0 -
spiriteagle99 wrote: »There are adaptations that happen when your body is going more slowly. You become more efficient at burning fat for fuel instead of glycogen. Your body creates capillaries and mitochondria to send oxygen to the muscles. You become better at using oxygen. Aerobic exercise means using oxygen. Running all out doesn't use oxygen well.
For most people, going slowly allows them to go farther. i.e. running 10 miles at a 6 mph pace is easier than running it at an 8 mph pace. When you are puffing and panting, you run out of energy pretty quickly. If you are doing only short fitness runs, that is less important, but for anyone who enjoys racing, going farther is the best training.
Then there is the injury aspect. If you are doing fast intervals or tempo miles, after a nice long warm up and with a good long cooldown, you can probably run fast a couple of times a week without getting injured. But if you just go out and run as hard as you can on cold muscles, you definitely risk injury, and probably long term injury. Hamstrings especially really don't like that.
To add to this, it is interesting to note that we don't "build" muscle how many people think we do. The muscle fibers we have are what we have to work with, we don't create new ones. Some muscle fibers were cast to aerobic/slow twitch and others anaerobic fast twitch. And there is a huge range in between. What we can do, through our training is bring some of the fast twitch muscle fibers over to the aerobic side. Muscle fiber diameter will decrease (to allow O2 to more easily be brought to the fibers), mitochondrial density and capillary density all grow when training in the "aerobic zone."
This is also the reason if one wants to increase their performance time they should plan out the appropriate taper and then add in the anaerobic work 3-6 weeks before the event. Even world class sprinters train this way, they build up their aerobic base and then they can handle higher anaerobic training frequencies, longer training sessions and bigger loads. But, they still only run full out only for competitions (which for them is a handful of times a year). The anaerobic fibers are adapted much quicker and with "endurance" events Maffetone even says most people don't need any anaerobic training.
Want to get faster? Drop your weight lifting (it is counterproductive to building aerobic base or it adds bulk elsewhere that you need to carry around), drop the intervals until the appropriate time (counterproductive to building aerobic base) and stop trying to run all out a couple times a week (counterproductive to building aerobic base). If it is a shorter distance event, build your aerobic base and then sacrifice some of it to the anaerobic system.1 -
BeeerRunner wrote: »80% of your running should be at a conversational pace.The_Enginerd wrote: »This link has a pretty good explanation some of the science behind the why. In short, running your training runs faster won't lead to being faster beyond a certain point, and you increase your risk of injuries and wear yourself out so your other runs are lower quality.
https://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/aerobic-training-run-faster-by-running-easy/
Interesting.... Thank you for the article and the experience. I'll have to see what "conversational" pace is for me. 50-75% of my current 5k pace is only 3-4.4mph. I'm not sure I can actually run that slow! Surely not below 4mph.
It is definitely a different mindset. With lifting, generally if you're not pushing you aren't progressing
The McMillan pace calculator puts your training paces in the 11:00-12:00 minute range, and that sounds about right to me. It's difficult to get used to slowing down in the beginning because it feels so slow. 80% of my mileage I am taking it easy and enjoy the scenery. It's basically like going for a walk/hike, except faster.0 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Just saying it's not worrisome to want to run faster0 -
This post is very helpful. I've trained for a few races in my time with about 60% commitment level, and now I do wonder if that's because I was pushing too hard for every run. My heart rate gets into the max range on every run I go on. I'm going to try to use the guidance provided in this as I add distance toward my 10k. Thanks for this!1
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Just saying it's not worrisome to want to run faster
There are better ways to run faster than just trying to run flat out every time though, that's the point of the thread, not OP specific running speed.1 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Just saying it's not worrisome to want to run faster
I'm sure you mean well, but you aren't a runner, aren't you?
OP's pace is not the pace of an advanced runner, but no, you don't become an advanced runner just trying to run faster.
That's a recipe to get injured.
You need instead a structured program that involves building an aerobic base first.3 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »
Just saying it's not worrisome to want to run faster
Indeed, but where the originator is at the moment, the most effective approach to improving pace is to increase running volume. Going flat out every session is a quick route to injury and burnout.
By working up to a 10K session the 5K pace will probably improve by 3-4 minutes, at minimal risk.
fwiw if I'm designing a standalone plan I'll split it into three stages; build up, speedwork then taper. Speedwork needn't be complex or extensive.
Even for someone who runs regular races, in which case one needs a rolling plan, the periods of speedwork are quite limited. If doing long races a month apart then three or four speedwork sessions in the middle two weeks is all it needs to maintain performance.
That said people who runs HMS, marathons and longer every month are a very small subset. People who run 10Ks every month with the occasional foray up to HM are by far the biggest sub-set.1 -
Yep, adding distance will make you faster without even realizing it. When i reached the 5k mark, i could do it in 45' and i was quite tired by then.I couldn't do it faster, my legs were not willing.Now,after increasing my distance slowly to 15k, i can run the 5k in 33' . And i am still improving that time.What gives out first is not my legs, but my breath actually. It took 5 months of running to get from 46' to 33' but it does work. Slowly increase the disntance,and the speed will come inevitably.1
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Just popping in to add that there is something glorious about having capacity at the end of the race to pump it up and sail over the finish line.4
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So.... did my 14 hour mile with a pack yesterday, just over 5 hours of "lightly winded" count the same as a slow run? Or more basically: if you could power walk and slow jog at the same speed, is that the same thing for miles/eventually getting a faster 5k? Or is there something special about the running gait?0
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Never been a runner, but I am about to start week 4 of C25K. I can tell ya. I'm just trying to get through the program and run when I'm supposed to. Time is not my focus. Good form, good breathing, taking mindful steps... once I get that down and my endurance up (and I'm not sucking wind so much), I'll work on my time. But my goal right now is just get a decent time for a 5k and not be last.
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Following this thread as I've been running myself this last 6-8 months or so and got comfortable and am now pushing myself again a little. My 5k speeds are comparable to OPs but on a treadmill. I've started extending my indoor runs and am taking myself outside which I kinda hate-love and working on increasing intervals. I'm not chasing a speed or a time, rather duration and conditioning.0
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So.... did my 14 hour mile with a pack yesterday, just over 5 hours of "lightly winded" count the same as a slow run? Or more basically: if you could power walk and slow jog at the same speed, is that the same thing for miles/eventually getting a faster 5k? Or is there something special about the running gait?
Walking is 1 foot always on the floor. Running is both feet off the ground so yes the gait and calorie expenditure are different0 -
You have gotten some responses that make me cringe ...
There are two reasons for this advice:
1. If you're a newbie: it takes a LONG time for your joints, bones, tendons, and ligaments to strengthen and be ready for running. Your cardiovascular system responds almost immediately. Your muscles next. But bones, joints, etc -- they lag behind A LOT. And a new runner will probably get hurt if she or he keeps trying to go as fast as possible. IT Band, stress fractures, etc -- they happen slowly and over time. It's not like pulling a muscle -- you know it when you do it. One day you can be fine; the next you'll be in PT for months. Stress fractures take a long time to recover from, and you have to start over when you're done rehab.
2. This is going to sound weird, but how you get faster is by slowly increasing your distance by running long, slow miles. You will automatically get faster as you put in the time and prep your legs / body for the work of running. Really -- it just happens automatically as you put in slow miles. You need to work on "base building."
Go to the running Reddit sub for info and advice about running. Truly, some people writing on here are setting you -- and themselves -- up for injuries: mix it up ... do sprints some days. I know it seems logical, especially for people who are fit from other exercise. Obviously, do what you want but that is not the advice I would give or follow myself. Follow a good program, and you can run for a long, long time.1 -
Slow down is also my advice to new runners or those looking to use running as a part of weight loss strategy. In the former case, I want them to enjoy it and not feel pressured to keep up. It's ok to slow down or walk even. Everyone does. In the latter case, DISTANCE matters more than TIME, so whatever it takes to cover the distance is whatever it takes. When those two cases intersect, well, I still advocate distance.0
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youdoyou2016 wrote: »You have gotten some responses that make me cringe ...
There are two reasons for this advice:
1. If you're a newbie: it takes a LONG time for your joints, bones, tendons, and ligaments to strengthen and be ready for running. Your cardiovascular system responds almost immediately. Your muscles next. But bones, joints, etc -- they lag behind A LOT. And a new runner will probably get hurt if she or he keeps trying to go as fast as possible. IT Band, stress fractures, etc -- they happen slowly and over time. It's not like pulling a muscle -- you know it when you do it. One day you can be fine; the next you'll be in PT for months. Stress fractures take a long time to recover from, and you have to start over when you're done rehab.
2. This is going to sound weird, but how you get faster is by slowly increasing your distance by running long, slow miles. You will automatically get faster as you put in the time and prep your legs / body for the work of running. Really -- it just happens automatically as you put in slow miles. You need to work on "base building."
Go to the running Reddit sub for info and advice about running. Truly, some people writing on here are setting you -- and themselves -- up for injuries: mix it up ... do sprints some days. I know it seems logical, especially for people who are fit from other exercise. Obviously, do what you want but that is not the advice I would give or follow myself. Follow a good program, and you can run for a long, long time.
What is making you cringe? 90% of the advice is pretty much exactly what you said.2 -
StaciMarie1974 wrote: »Personally I'm going slower so I can go longer/further. Once I have the longer/further under control, I'll stress less on slowing down.
I did a 5k each of the last couple weekends. First one I walked @ 1 mile mark then alternated. Finished 37:35. Second my initial run went a little longer, but still ended up alternating running and walking. Finished 36:02.
I know that if I run slower I can run (without walking) for a longer distance. Yesterday at lunch, I went for 3.1 miles in 34 minutes. That was about .15 miles walking to get to my running location (dealing with traffic, crossing a street and such). I kept my time around the 10:30 minutes per mile mark and felt really good.
My current goal is to run a 10k, completely, at or under 1 hour & 10 minutes.
I'm the same. My first 5K was at 30:00 (yes, exactly!) and 2nd was a month later at 28:53. Those were a long time ago, and I just got seriously back into running last Oct. As a newbie runner a few years ago, those times included going out way too fast and then having to walk most of the time. Pacing was terrible. When I picked up running again in Oct., I had the same issue. It is still sometimes a problem, but I've been able to make some real improvements. Now that I'm going slower, my distance is improving at pretty close to the same average pace as some of my shorter runs. That's due to more consistency, where I would have sprinted at first and then walked for awhile afterwards. That might work for shorter races, so if I start out too fast and then walk for most of a 5K, then no big deal. If I start out way too fast and walk for most of a HM, then my average pace suffers so badly I might not even finish before the cut-off.
Spending a lot of time trying to slow down has made a big impact on distance. Yesterday, for example, I did 8.34 miles at an average of 9:53 in heavy wind. It felt like I was going slow, sure, but I can tell I'm building distance. Once I have the stamina to go long enough distances, I'll work on improving pace.0 -
Run long and run hard (however you define that). Beware though, proper warm-up is essential (dynamic). Wear cushioned shoes and socks for the pounding that your joints/muscles/tendons/ligaments will endure. Change shoes as recommended (based on mileage accumulated or wear patterns of the soles). Recovery is important for me as I need at least a day to recuperate. Stay hydrated. Don't overfuel or underfuel before running. Stride naturally and listen to your body. My heart rate would get very high to the 180s to 190s by the end of my run and I am usually spent. It works for me and may or may not for others. I try to run 3 to 4 times a week at least 5 to 6 miles at each run (treadmill and outdoors). With these primitive basics in mind, I was able to go from a 66 minute 10K to a 49 minute 10K without any crazy injuries.0
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One also gets faster by running faster. A tautology if there ever was one. The counterintuitiveness of getting faster by running slower is actually not that counterintuitive; it is but one component of a complete training program. But we're still left with "fast." The mechanics of running fast are different than the mechanics of running slow. All the iterations of speed work-- tempos, fartleks, speed intervals, hill repeats-- are necessary components to learning to run fast.youdoyou2016 wrote: »2. This is going to sound weird, but how you get faster is by slowly increasing your distance by running long, slow miles. You will automatically get faster as you put in the time and prep your legs / body for the work of running. Really -- it just happens automatically as you put in slow miles. You need to work on "base building."
That's all well and good, but I suspect what we're really after is running efficiency. To achieve that we need all of long runs, speed work, active recovery, rest and, yes, strength conditioning.
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jennypapage wrote: »Yep, adding distance will make you faster without even realizing it. When i reached the 5k mark, i could do it in 45' and i was quite tired by then.I couldn't do it faster, my legs were not willing.Now,after increasing my distance slowly to 15k, i can run the 5k in 33' . And i am still improving that time.What gives out first is not my legs, but my breath actually. It took 5 months of running to get from 46' to 33' but it does work. Slowly increase the disntance,and the speed will come inevitably.
Congrats, you've gone from a slow walking pace to a fast walking pace. I thought we were talking about running.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »Yep, adding distance will make you faster without even realizing it. When i reached the 5k mark, i could do it in 45' and i was quite tired by then.I couldn't do it faster, my legs were not willing.Now,after increasing my distance slowly to 15k, i can run the 5k in 33' . And i am still improving that time.What gives out first is not my legs, but my breath actually. It took 5 months of running to get from 46' to 33' but it does work. Slowly increase the disntance,and the speed will come inevitably.
Congrats, you've gone from a slow walking pace to a fast walking pace. I thought we were talking about running.
That make you feel better about yourself? :huh:9 -
stanmann571 wrote: »jennypapage wrote: »Yep, adding distance will make you faster without even realizing it. When i reached the 5k mark, i could do it in 45' and i was quite tired by then.I couldn't do it faster, my legs were not willing.Now,after increasing my distance slowly to 15k, i can run the 5k in 33' . And i am still improving that time.What gives out first is not my legs, but my breath actually. It took 5 months of running to get from 46' to 33' but it does work. Slowly increase the disntance,and the speed will come inevitably.
Congrats, you've gone from a slow walking pace to a fast walking pace. I thought we were talking about running.
4.0mph is NOT a slow walking pace and 5.6 isn't a walking pace at all. Not only are you rude, but also completely wrong.9
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